Zegnat!tell aaronpk was there a reason https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Per-Item_Data calls out Feedbin for starred items? That was Google Reader behaviour that everyone seems to have copied (NewsBlur, Feed Wranger are 2 more examples with a starred flag)
Loqiaaronpk: Zegnat left you a message 2 hours, 55 minutes ago: was there a reason https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Per-Item_Data calls out Feedbin for starred items? That was Google Reader behaviour that everyone seems to have copied (NewsBlur, Feed Wranger are 2 more examples with a starred flag)
ZegnatGotcha. I was thinking about linking to other API pages, or adding commentary about how it is a Google Reader idiom and is basically “in reader bookmarking”. But not sure that actually adds anything to the brainstorm itself.
Zegnatsecond based timestamps are pinned to an epoch, that epoch could theoretically be in a specific timezone. But that would be a huge engineering hassle, very unlikely they would do that.
ben_thatmustbemeapache any23 uses apache tika, which uses something called Grib (which is dead), which uses a very old (2012) version of jSoup, which was still working out html5 bugs
aaronpkcould you file a bug on the common crawl project with a super simple html5 example (not involving microformats) showing that it completely breaks?
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "state of HTML parsers in programming languages these days anyway" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "state of HTML parsers in programming languages these days anyway is ____", a sentence describing the term)
sknebelI would have probably pointed to a few any23 bugs and asked if they have numbers for how many sites they ignored due to that or something like that
tantek.comcreated /prehistory (+1743) "move prehistoric articles from before the web to a separate page, relevance to the indieweb is not nearly the same level as actual arcticles mentioning / discussing the indieweb an indie web etc." (view diff)
tantek.comedited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb () "(-1067) move prehistoric articles from before the web to a separate page, relevance to the indieweb is not nearly the same level as actual arcticles mentioning / discussing the indieweb an indie web etc." (view diff)
aaronpk!tell benwerd your cert on benwerd.com expired and I was using your screenshot tool that's on that domain! any chance you can renew it or move that to werd.io?
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "https admin tax" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "https admin tax is ____", a sentence describing the term)
[tantek]https admin tax is the additional amount of nontrivial regular administrative work you or your web host service provider must do to keep your [[https]] site running and available as compared to http. Search IndieWeb irc for "certificate expired" or "cert expired" for examples of failure to pay this admin tax.
[tantek]E.g. You post to your site, you posse to twitter, someone @-replies on twitter, and then they put that reply permalink into the "send a webmention" form on your original post permalink?
tantek.comedited /https_admin_tax (+575) "not a requirement since it still works in browsers, is a tax due to failure to pay breaking your site. Fragility section" (view diff)
snarfedfavorite quote: "longevity and privacy/security are all worthwhile goals. We should work toward both of them at the same time, instead of seeing them as a (false) dichotomy."
snarfedunrelated, [tantek], if your manual backfeed q is motivated by github, another thought would be to sponsor someone to add it to bridgy. i bet we could earmark open collective funds for that.
aaronpkso I can make a bridgy permalink for any tweet, but a webmention from that page won't work since the bridgy page doesn't actually link to my post
aaronpkso the other path here is if I know the twitter URL i'm trying to send a webmention for, how could bridgy find my post that it should put as the in-reply-to URL
Loqi[Blaine Cook] @aaronpk @lauraglu designing for yourself isn't the same as designing for users. Dogfooding is eating something not made FOR but BY you.
Loqi[Kartik Prabhu] Got rid of some fatwigoo ( otsukare.info/2017/11/02/fat… ) from my site! Safe defaults with CSS as enhancement; I like it! (kartikprabhu.com/notes/got-rid-…)
aaronpkanyway snarfed do you think you can fix the "resend for post" for this example of mine? If so, I'll hold off on sending that webmention manually
tantek.comedited /Webmention-brainstorming (+925) "move receiving webmentions for POSSE copies to proper section, add rough changes / extension need to the webmention spec, possible way to implement" (view diff)
[tantek]That's my contributions for today I think. One positive (receiving webmentions for POSSE copies), and one critical (https admin tax page / example)
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "microformats tax" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "microformats tax is ____", a sentence describing the term)
[tantek]It is extra work to be sure miklb. Just less than the alternatives, and leaving it out won't "break" your pages (thus not being a tax per se, more of a cost to get some additional features)
aaronpkMicroformats tax is the additional effort required to maintain the Microformats markup on a web page when you want to make unrelated changes to the web page.
[tantek]It's like your argument of letsencrypt aaronpk. microformats puts the markup where it will make you see and maintain it. Instead of forgetting about it for a while until it breaks (silently)
aaronpkany change you want to make is going to require some amount of testing and spot-checking, whether that change is to the visible page or some sort of internal change
aaronpkI was trying to clarify on that page that just because something is a tax doesn't mean that's discouraging it. perhaps that needs to be clearer.
Loqihttps admin tax is the additional amount of nontrivial regular administrative work you or your web host service provider must do to keep your https site running and available as compared to http https://indieweb.org/https_admin_tax
[miklb]followed by “why doesn’t my webmentions work?” Oh, you need to wrap that in a `p-name` and you have nested properties so you need to change, this, this ,and ths.
aaronpksure adding mf2 is not hard (tho that depends on whether you are writing your HTML yourself or using something like wordpress themes), but i'm talking about the maintenance of it
aaronpkright now my baseline is my site works and my posts show up in micro.blog and in Monocle. now whenever I change anything I have to make sure I maintain the Microformats to ensure that continues to be true.
[miklb]tantek, my argument is that the wiki is a community resource and as we as a community encourage mf2, webmentions and the like, having pages like that https admin tax page reflects on the community as a whole. I wouldn’t care if you wrote a blog post on your site with that opinion.
ZegnatMy mind: “Request Verification” is synchronous and contains target verification, “Webmention Verification” is asynchronous and contains source verifications.
ZegnatDomain renewal is definitely another admin tax though. Not sure it is mentioned on the wiki as such? We should have plenty examples of domains not getting renewed.
[miklb]just because some people haven’t taken the time (myself included) to update how they are using letsencrypt to auto-renew and make sure nginx restarts doesn’t mean it is a broken process.
[miklb]tantek, I’m not saying those aren’t all valid points to document, but with snarknition type additions to the wiki, I personally do not think it’s productive.
[miklb]Again, speaking for myself, I assume the wiki is a community resource, not your personal document. That is what our personal blogs, the main thing we advocate for, should be used for.
[tantek]Same with new JS language features, too hard to subset JS Lang processing just for http so that will likely stay equivalent until / unless JS is turned off completely for http (which I've actually asked for by default)
ZegnatYes, “requiring secure contexts results in undue implementation complexity” is a given reason for exception from the rule [tantek]. So that probably applies to JS language features.
[tantek]Like I said, I'll look into more when I'm back but without a citation for the discussion for that claim, I'm skeptical. I'm sure that's what Anne wants, so it's a good stake in the ground, but AFAIK that hasn't been agreed to on dev-platform, bugzilla, www-style, or even the W3C TAG
tantek.comedited /Webmention (+166) "clean-up see also, clearly separate Webmention Development subpages that used to be part of this page" (view diff)
tantek.comedited /https_admin_tax (+129) "note even if you make no other changes to your site, note should add HTTPS per existing reasons, move Chrome treatment to HTTPS page because it has nothing to do with the admin tax in particular, note HSTS can add more fragility, https-only outages" (view diff)
tantek.commoved /FreeMyOAuth to /appaccess "way more user friendly name, much easier to share with a typical user as a page to use to see what apps have what access to their accounts"
[tantek]Hoping that makes it more real world shareable with friends who get strange emails notifying them that they just granted access to a particular service / account with certain privileges etc
sknebelall this is very "own server" centric, but I guess that makes sense - on a normal webhost you are going to leave these things to them and might not even know if it is let's encrypt or somebody else providing the certificate in the end
LoqiWeb hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indieweb.org/web_host
[tantek]Should exist (ideal, opinion) and does typically exist (can cite examples) are two different things, things I feel are often errantly conflated here
sknebelshould have said "shared hosting". E.g. the Let's Encrypt page primarily talks about using it with certbot on your own server, including "you need some kind of access to your server" when e.g. Dreamhost shared hosting has it integrated into their management UI and does all the details for you
[tantek]You should assume providers do not do all the details for you unless you can actually link to their docs and/or UI (preferably with screenshots)
[miklb]what is kind a funny, I had already planned for tonight to switch my single site WP install to multi-site and set up letsencrypt certs for all of the sites. I’m going to need a tax cut
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "kind a funny, I had already planned for tonight to switch my single site WP install to multi-site and set up letsencrypt certs for all of the sites. I’m going to need a tax cut" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "kind a funny, I had already planned for tonight to switch my single site WP install to multi-site and set up letsencrypt certs for all of the sites. I’m going to need a tax cut is ____", a sentence describing the term)
sknebelI think we also shouldn't list CACert on there - objections? While I kind of like the idea of what they are trying to do, they are a far-off choice and not something a typical Indieweb site should use
www.boffosocko.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+2090) "A handful of articles via snarfed, mrkrndvs, chrisaldrich, shaners, altsalt, archived version of 1997 articles added in English/French" (view diff)
[eddie] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-F8TQEUUAF/screen_shot_2018-01-16_at_7.37.18_pm.png?pub_secret=9d7b6cdaae&name=Screen Shot 2018-01-16 at 7.37.18 PM.png
Loqi aaronpk: [eddie] left you a message 6 minutes ago: Is this error correct? https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/files/U433EQWG2/F8TQEUUAF/screen_shot_2018-01-16_at_7.37.18_pm.png it seems like photo[] should be a valid attribute but it doesn’t seem to like it. I’m gonna try photo without the “[]” but I wasn’t sure if micropub.rocks it was behaving properly or not.
@billbennettnz Hey @phoneboy I don’t quite get how the webmention plugin picks up comments from micro.nlog. How do you make that happen? (twitter.com/_/status/953514804479774720)
ignite.digitalignition.net edited /best_nine (+321) "Added details for hosted BestNine" (view diff)
Zegnat !tell aaronpk was there a reason https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Per-Item_Data calls out Feedbin for starred items? That was Google Reader behaviour that everyone seems to have copied (NewsBlur, Feed Wranger are 2 more examples with a starred flag)
ben_thatmustbeme dang, even the w3 validator still doesn't allow <link> inside of <body>
tantek.com created /principles/discussion (+637) "archive old/inactive discussion to subpage" (view diff)
gRegorLove [miklb] The dates should be correct in my Atom feed now. Going forward they should look right in Evergreen.
aaronpk grantcodes: is Together adding this "Like of" and "In reply to" text above the post or is my feed parsing doing something wrong? https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2018-01-17-09-23-18-v5OBeqLjEz.jpg
grantcodes aaronpk: I did that
[tantek] https admin tax is the additional amount of nontrivial regular administrative work you or your web host service provider must do to keep your [[https]] site running and available as compared to http. Search IndieWeb irc for "certificate expired" or "cert expired" for examples of failure to pay this admin tax.
loqi.me created /https_admin_tax (+337) "prompted by [tantek] and dfn added by [tantek]" (view diff)
@aaronpk @blaine I'm surprised! Most of our work has focused on UX first, protocols second. The reason for self-dogfooding... http://aaron.pk/r4Qr1 (twitter.com/_/status/353172536109961218)
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: with bridgy urls you can actually make any tweet a reply to any other https://brid.gy/comment/twitter/aaronpk/353172536109961218/929819657544052736 so careful with your webmention form
[kevinmarks] I'm still working on my crazy metadata post, and the mf tax is a lot lower than the schema one.
aaronparecki.com edited /https_admin_tax (-43) "remove confrontational wording, move chat search into examples section" (view diff)
@cramforce 💥 OMG biggest news in web performance in, like, a decade: Technology independent performance based ranking in Google Search. I've been waiting for this to be ready for such a long time. So happy to see it out there!!! https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2018/01/using-page-speed-in-mobile-search.html (twitter.com/_/status/953677965388275712)
[miklb] that blog post also links to this almost 3 year old post https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/