#dev 2018-05-29

2018-05-29 UTC
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GWG Since, cleverdevil was talking about this day in his site, I realized how easily I could do that.
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[tantek] Thread for personal site feature brainstorming: https://twitter.com/timoni/status/1000928081215868928
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@timoni Hm. As I debate replying to one of my tweets with another just to make a digital connection, I realize I’ve started to use Twitter as a public memex. Other than actually building one (@TrevorFSmith) have folks tried this? Probably you, @t? (twitter.com/_/status/1000928081215868928)
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KartikPrabhu [tantek]: proposal for alt img parsing changes https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/2#issuecomment-392608361
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Loqi [kartikprabhu] Here are the proposed changes to the spec to account for `alt` attribute. Add a new section 1.5 with title "parse an `img` element for `src` and `alt`" with the steps - if `img[alt]` - return a new `{}` structure with - `value`: the `src`...
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tantek_ eddiehinkle's idea for embedding subscriber specific links in an email version of your posts makes a lot of sense - wondering if that idea is documented anywhere
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tantek_ and even just the MailChimp feature of RSS to email
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tantek_ what is MailChimp
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Loqi Mailchimp is a service for sending emails https://indieweb.org/MailChimp
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tantek_ what is RSS to email
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RSS to email" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "RSS to email is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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@depone Twitter scheint die Auth-API geändert zu haben. Ab jetzt nutze ich PGP für IndieAuth – Falls Du das auch brauchst, steht hier wie es eingerichtet wird: https://indieauth.com/pgp #indieweb #indieauth #twitter #pgp (twitter.com/_/status/1001383981298978816)
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[jgmac1106] Hey @swentel I think you let me know what I did wrong here: https://indieweb.jgregorymcverry.com/blog/ with microformats2 I think it was around the social media links.
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Loqi Greg McVerry
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[jgmac1106] If you get a chance can you note it here: https://github.com/jgmac1106/wp-dimension/issues want to get it set before the PR, have'nt decided how to handle all the h-entries on the same single page but like you said will jsut mark it up correctly and nopt worry about parser behaivor
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sknebel [jgmac1106]: you probably meant me. you have the u-urls on the wrong element, they have to be on the <a> tag with the link, not on an element around it
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[jgmac1106] and oops it was @sknebel who looked at it, have no idea why I think you two are the same person
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sknebel similar nick names can be confusing :)
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skippy ahoy hoy.
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tantek_ KartikPrabhu edited your parsing changes proposal to escape the <base> tags so GitHub's sill markdown doesn't hide them by default
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KartikPrabhu !tell [tantek] thanks for the edits. I guess no I'll have to implement this version in mf2py for it to make it into spec
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@andrewsreading ✌ @Reading "The Indieweb privacy challenge (Webmentions, silo backfeeds, and the GDPR) // Sebastian Greger" http://ing.am/p/4Zir (twitter.com/_/status/1001546274376749056)
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@RankinPrinsloo My mission is to ensure Mental Wellness. We are all in this together. Each One – Teach One  http://bit.ly/2Bk4FmZ #AmazonKindle #mentalillness #depression #anxiety #ocd #bipolardisorder #IFNRTG #IndieAuth (twitter.com/_/status/1001561585448570888)
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loqi.me created /Futurepub (+171) "prompted by tantek_ and dfn added by tantek_" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Futurepub (+1) "linkify ('x is y. <url>.' pattern)" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Futurepub (+34) "tantek_ added "[[scheduling]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek_ what is a token
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Loqi A token is an identifier that apps use to authenticate between each other and sites; IndieWeb software often uses an access_token obtained via IndieAuth https://indieweb.org/token
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tantek_ what is an expiring token?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "expiring token" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "expiring token is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ what is a scheuled token?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scheuled token" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "scheuled token is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ Zegnat ^^^ :)
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Zegnat I am not sure if those terms are actually in use else where...
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Zegnat But let me define them how I was thinking about them
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Zegnat An expiring token is a [[token]], probably an [[access token]], that automatically expires after certain use or after a specified amount of time
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /expiring_token (+169) "prompted by tantek_ and dfn added by Zegnat" (view diff)
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Zegnat A scheduled token is a [[token]], probably an [[access token]], that is only active between two specific points in time.
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tantek_ by "certain use" do you mean certain number of uses (like one?) or something else?
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Zegnat What is a scheduled token?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scheduled token" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "scheduled token is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat A scheduled token is a [[token]], probably an [[access token]], that is only active between two specific points in time.
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /scheduled_token (+145) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by Zegnat" (view diff)
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Zegnat I meant that I think these things are existing systems that must have a name. But the names “expiring token” and “scheduled token” are names that I just came up with in context.
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snarfed schedule/expiring tokens are fine, but seem kind of orthogonal to future vs present post date
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Zegnat So might turn out somebody swoops in and tells me they have a specific name established in some RFC later
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snarfed seems like if you really want to control token lifetime, you do that in the context of your session with the client app, not per post
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tantek_ expiring token << Use-case: if you want to give a 3rd party site or service a token to post on your behalf but not worry about that site holding onto the token longer than they should, or using it more often than you want them to.
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Loqi ok, I added "Use-case: if you want to give a 3rd party site or service a token to post on your behalf but not worry about that site holding onto the token longer than they should, or using it more often than you want them to." to a brand new "See Also" section of /expiring_token https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=48038&oldid=48036
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loqi.me edited /expiring_token (+232) "tantek_ added "Use-case: if you want to give a 3rd party site or service a token to post on your behalf but not worry about that site holding onto the token longer than they should, or using it more often than you want them to." to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Zegnat tantek pretty much summed up the usecase, e.g. with Futurepub, that would want to make me use them
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tantek_ scheduled token << Use-case: if you are using a 3rd party [[scheduling]] service like [[Futurepub]], you may want to give it a token that only works during when you expect that service to post on your behalf in the future, so you don't have to worry about the service using it too soon, or holding onto it.
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Loqi ok, I added "Use-case: if you are using a 3rd party [[scheduling]] service like [[Futurepub]], you may want to give it a token that only works during when you expect that service to post on your behalf in the future, so you don't have to worry about the service using it too soon, or holding onto it." to a brand new "See Also" section of /scheduled_token https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=48039&oldid=48037
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loqi.me edited /scheduled_token (+307) "tantek_ added "Use-case: if you are using a 3rd party [[scheduling]] service like [[Futurepub]], you may want to give it a token that only works during when you expect that service to post on your behalf in the future, so you don't have to worry about..." (view diff)
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Zegnat If the token is only good for one post (auto expiring afterwards), I would feel a lot safer handing it to Futurepub. If it leaks, the worst that can happen is 1 spam post being created and my scheduled post neve being posted.
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tantek_ Zegnat, if you like, you can edit those pages to move those Use-case: statements into a new "Why" subsection on each
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Zegnat Or, to give it a better chance of only being used by Futurepub, for the token to only be valid around the time I expect the post to be made. Say ±5 minutes from my scheduled post date.
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tantek_ It's quite a clever improvement to the problem of trusting 3rd party services, or rather, of reducing how much you have to trust to them in order to use them
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tantek_ Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 66 karma in this channel (220 overall)
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Zegnat So, snarfed, I am thinking of it in connection with “giving a token to Futurepub”, not really “using separate tokens for each post”, if that makes sense?
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Zegnat (Futurepub just as an example, as it is the first Micropub proxy I have seen.)
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tantek_ Zegnat, Silo.pub is a Micropub proxy of sorts
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tantek_ what is a Micropub proy
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Micropub proy" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Micropub proy is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ ugh
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tantek_ what is a Micropub proxy
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Micropub proxy" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Micropub proxy is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ Micropub proxy is a service that acts as Micropub server to receive Micropub requests, then passes those requests onto another service to handle the actual publishing. Examples: [[silo.pub]], [[Futurepub]]
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /Micropub_proxy (+233) "prompted by tantek_ and dfn added by tantek_" (view diff)
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swentel hmm yeah about that, tokens, if you use tokens.indieauth.com
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swentel do they ever expire ?
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Zegnat Nope
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Zegnat Or they have a very long expiry time. I am not 100% sure. But I believe they simply do not expire.
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swentel I could probably just read the source of course :)
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swentel but I see no refresh option either
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Zegnat You also cannot revoke them, as defined in the IndieAuth spec, as they are selfcontained. So the server doesn’t know to revoke them.
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Zegnat Mintoken stores the tokens on the server and supports revokation per spec, if you want to self-host and use PHP
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Zegnat No timed expiry there either though, but I am now considering it
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swentel yeah, looking whether I want to built this into the drupal module or not
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Zegnat What is Mintoken?
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Loqi Mintoken is minimal and self-hostable IndieAuth compatible Token Endpoint in PHP https://indieweb.org/Mintoken
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Zegnat Licensed 0BSD, feel free to take whatever you need, swentel ^^^
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Zegnat (I would also love feedback to further improve it.)
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swentel I can get some inspiration from it no doubt
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swentel but it's low prio atm :)
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swentel working towards beta now first, then getting indigenous into public beta as well
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Zegnat will not rest until everyone is hosting their own IndieAuth infra :P
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swentel hehe
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Zegnat Except for right now, because I am off for bed for some rest. Cheers all!
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swentel night
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skippy Zegnat++ for encouraging self-hosting of indieauth resources
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Loqi zegnat has 67 karma in this channel (221 overall)
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snarfed sysadmin--
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Loqi sysadmin has -1 karma in this channel (-7 overall)
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snarfed sysadmintax--
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Loqi sysadmintax has -1 karma
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aaronpk haha
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skippy someone, somewhere, has to manage all this stuff. if i'm doing it for myself, i have skin in the game. if i hand it all off to someone else, how is that not a different kind of silo reliance?
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snarfed the "how much do i have to self host to be indie" question is *very* well worn here, and captured in at least a few places on the wiki
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snarfed consistently the answer has been, you don't have to self host *anything* to be indie, you just have to own your own domain
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aaronpk the important part is that you *can* self-host if you want
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snarfed yes! you can, and you also don't have to
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skippy it's not a matter of "how much makes me indie" but "eventually the guy who hosts the stuff on which i rely will get bored and stop hosting that stuff" leaving me in a lurch
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aaronpk as in, we need to make sure the systems and protocols we design both don't require you to self-host, but also don't prevent it
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snarfed if we had to do everything ourselves, we'd all live in shacks, growing potatoes and roots and breaking our back harvesting them, and die at 35 of rickets or scurvy
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snarfed at this point in my life, increasing my personal sysadmin tax directly reduces my quality of life and overall happiness, and i'm pretty tolerant. it's absolutely a non starter for gen 3/4
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aaronpk and we need to make sure we have the ability to swap out the infrastructure for something else without losing all our data and connections
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aaronpk it's not about self-hosting or not self-hosting
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skippy i dont give a wet slap about meeting some collective definition of "generations" or "indiemark" or anything. I do care about not relying on some service that next month becomes abandoned.
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aaronpk it's about portability
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snarfed right! also choosing vendors carefully, paying instead of using free services
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snarfed right. no matter how much you do yourself, you won't do some things - datacenter, network, OS, etc - and those will change too. you need to be able to handle that ok
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skippy Manton could eventually stop doing micro.blog. brid.gy could go away tomorrow for any number of reasons. quill could shut down, and micropublish.net too; and tokens.indieauth.com.
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skippy so yes, i understand the sysadmin tax. I am a sysadmin by day, all day.
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snarfed ...and your OS, and your hardware vendor, and your datacenter. nothing is forever
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[cleverdevil] This is one of the main reasons I am working on serverless solutions now.
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[cleverdevil] I'd like to stop managing servers 😄
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skippy the build/buy debate is ancient, and on-going. it's a spectrum, and different poeple have different motivations for where they live on that spectrum.
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petermolnar this is the reason why I run my own server - fascinating to see the different reactions to the same problem :)
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skippy ironically, there are so many servers involved in any "serverless" solution. :) Amazon pays armies of human beings do manage them.
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aaronpk skippy: again this is what i was saying about it's not a build vs buy or self-host vs not-self-host question
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aaronpk facebook is not a problem because you can't self-host facebook. it's a problem because there's no interoperability with other tools and no portability
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petermolnar why is sysadmin at -7 karma?
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KartikPrabhu because it be hard
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petermolnar and that's a reason do put negative karma on something? because it's hard? water services is hard as well, also essential :)
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KartikPrabhu eh! different people have put negative karma on sysadmin here. It wasn't done by default or anything
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KartikPrabhu if you like sysadmin then up karma it or something
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snarfed "different people," absolutely! i'm all for people self hosting sysadmining if they want to!
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snarfed ...but i'm not for evangelizing or advocating (like Zegnat mentioned) that *all* of us do it
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snarfed portability, yes. own your domain, yes. otherwise vive la difference.
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KartikPrabhu yup
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snarfed water services is an awesome analogy btw. absolutely essential, but i expect very few of us are on well water, and none of us run our own public water utility :P
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swentel haha, imagine, an IndieWebDam
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snarfed self hosted shack in the woods
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aaronpk i feel like there's some really good talk material here
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snarfed yes!
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[jeremycherfas] DamIndieWeb has a certain ring to it too.
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Indieweb_for_Journalism (+536) "Outlet Examples: ColoradoBoulevard.net" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Buffer (+33) "aaronpk added "[[Futurepub]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek_ wow that escalated quickly
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skippy speaking of talk content, friendly reminder that Ohio LinuxFest call for presentations is open: https://ohiolinux.org/call-for-presentations/
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Loqi Call for Presentations The 2018 Ohio LinuxFest is looking for presentations on Friday and Saturday, October 12 and 13, 2018 at the Hyatt Regency Columbus. Please submit your talk proposals by the deadline of July 31, 2018 to make sure you’ll be con...
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aaronpk thx skippy! /me bookmarks
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tantek_ snarfed, are you participating in the Internet Archive dweb meetup on the 13th?
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snarfed hi tantek_! no, sorry
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aaronpk I still haven't heard back from them
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aaronpk I sent an email via their event registration system as well as to their email address
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skippy aaronpk: heard back from ... Ohio LinuxFest or Archive meetup?
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aaronpk archive meetup
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skippy Whew. thanks.
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aaronpk are you part of the ohio event?
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tantek_ aaronpk, I haven't heard back either. I'm assuming if you have (bought) a ticket, you're in, and whether or not you get to speak is up to time limits
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skippy aaronpk: yes.
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Indieweb_for_Journalism (+112) "/* IndieWeb Outlet Examples */ ColoradoBoulevard.net displaying Read posts" (view diff)
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aaronpk skippy: sweet! Hope I can make it then!
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skippy that'd be swell!
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tantek_ when is IWC Nurnberg?
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Loqi what
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aaronpk tantek_: yeah, I was hoping for any sort of acknowledgment from them, even if it was just saying that
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tantek_ what is IWC Nurnberg
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IWC Nurnberg" yet. Would you like to create it?_ (Or just say "IWC Nurnberg is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ hmm
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aaronpk it's a little disconcerting when there is no indication of a human behind the event
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aaronpk no names of organizers or names in any contact emails
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tantek_ ^^^ THIS
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tantek_ IWC Nurnberg is /2018/Nuremberg
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /IWC_Nurnberg (+27) "prompted by tantek_ and redirect added by tantek_" (view diff)
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aaronpk for all I know, the Facebook AI is organizing that event as an attempt to consolidate all humans working on decentralized networking things into one place to take them all out </dystopia>
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tantek_ aaronpk which event?
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aaronpk dweb summit
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tantek_ (sorry, three events in context)
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tantek_ dweb summit doesn't exist yet does it? just the mini meetup on the 13th
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aaronpk er, meeteup
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aaronpk damn "e" key
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tantek_ could always ask on the dweb Slack :) (haven't used it since 2016 but I assume it's still there)
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aaronpk might try that next
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tantek_ what is dweb
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dweb" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "dweb is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek_ heh
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aaronpk SF isn't *that* far from PDX, but it's still a bit of an outlay to make it down there for a meetup
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aaronpk *technically* I can leave my house at the same time as people who live in the bay and get to the city before them sometimes
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KartikPrabhu lol
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tantek_ it's true, especially with ever-increasing bay area traffic
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aaronpk in a big plane, it's 1:15 flight time, the remaining variables being runway traffic and SFO-to-city traffic
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tantek_ aaronpk with BART you can reduce the SFO-to-city number
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tantek_ and variable
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tantek_ though Internet Archive is a bit of a pain to get to via transit
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tantek_ aaronpk, I think this is the summit you might be worried about: https://decentralized-ai.com/
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aaronpk haha
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GWG aaronpk, can anyone host an indielogin equivalent?
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aaronpk sure! it's open source, or you can write your own
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GWG aaronpk, I am thinking about the conversation you had with pfefferle
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GWG If you have multiple websites you want to sign into... Shouldn't the same logic be applied on the site...
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GWG The relmeauth fallback?
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aaronpk no, the trick is to stop thinking about the site you're signing in to as another one of your websites
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aaronpk think of it like any other site you are signing in to, like the wiki, or telegraph
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GWG I am actually