aaronpkYou certainly can build both use cases into the same plugin but I would still like to see actual documentation on all the different flows the plugin supports
[markmhendricksoQuick thought re: the self-hosting and sysadmin convo above – any opinions here on the best way to self-host *without* having to sysadmin aka touch a command line? cc [snarfed] @Zegnat
[markmhendricksoI agree that expecting sysadmining from anyone but the most technical of users is a nonstarter but I wonder if "owning your own domain" is enough to be indie if, say, you were to point it to your FB profile for example. The idea of having direct control of your data and its presentation online aka "self-hosting" (...if not for the messy administrative business behind it) seems core to being indie to me
[markmhendrickso"Direct" control may be better written as "independent" control in that only you decide how the data is managed, accessed and presented
[markmhendricksoAnd yet we don't want to be lonesome, primitive shacks in the woods, so we're dependent on the connective / communal tissues at least...as to whether we need "water" from a plumbing system or can rely on our shack-side "lake" (interpreting the water metaphor here as services we need to be individually prosperous, not simply to connect us communally), I suppose that's another question
[markmhendrickso[cweiske] I suppose then is whether "renting" a company-based host independent enough, given that the company can shut down its service or change it at their will?
[markmhendricksoOr does it have to be a box that sits at your home with a nice UI to avoid sysadmin? Or at least a remote cloud-based server that can't be shutdown and you own somehow vs rent?
[markmhendricksoI suppose [snarfed]'s point that the domain ownership is key would be sufficient in a decentralized world where the actual single host doesn't matter if there is massive replication involved aka there is no single host...maybe it sits on a box at your home and is replicated at your friend's home and Amazon, encrypted etc
cweiske3. you always should have a backup so that if the hoster burns down, or the police raids the server, you can put the content back on another server
ZegnatI stick to what I discussed with Jeena on his podcast: the domain is the important part, because that is the actual identity part of you being online. Want to start with a website? Get a cheap one.com (or similar) shared hosting package where you do not have to care about the server side at all and can just drop stuff on that you want to use.
[markmhendricksoThis convo does make me start to lean more towards a "the host is the cloud" solution, though, ie side step the very idea of having to pinpoint your host in one place / company with sysadmin, updates, TOS, etc reliance
jgmac1106on the topic of “naming things is hard” and “what is indie” I agree with those it comes down to domain but then I shared examples of people using Google Sites or other services where they are a subdomain I would conisider indie
jgmac1106“Your content is yours” “You are better connected” “You are in control” as long as you are moving to these three values while developing the indieweb priinceples along your journey I am cool
jgmac1106to this end I switched the get started page so owning the domain was the first step before joining the indieweb community. Feel free to switch back
petermolnarso, markdown flavours: I use Pandoc as: markdown+backtick_code_blocks+auto_identifiers+fenced_code_attributes+definition_lists+grid_tables+pipe_tables+strikeout+superscript+subscript+markdown_in_html_blocks+shortcut_reference_links+autolink_bare_uris+raw_html+link_attributes+header_attributes+footnotes
ZegnatHmm, petermolnar, Typora seems to not actually pass its Markdown to PanDoc. Instead passing an actual AST. I am not sure how easy it is to have a Typora-saved-MD-file convert correctly.
ZegnatYeah. And when using PanDoc to export it actually gives it a homemode AST, if I got that right. Which I feel might be hard to emulate in a CMS... So unsure how portable Typora-authored Markdown documents realy are.
[kevinmarks]I wonder if federating the tile hosting would make any sense - we each host/cache detailed tiles for our own localities, and coarse ones for elsewhere.
snarfedhah, that's an unintended downside of fedsocnets with decent UIs. when you post a link and your post federates, all nodes fetch the link to render a link preview at roughly the same time, so you get a ddos like this. 20qps, ~1.2k fetches in ~60s.
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "thundering herd" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "thundering herd is ____", a sentence describing the term)
tantek!tell kevinmarks this one is for you since you know the history, want to define "thundering herd"? https://indieweb.org/s/11Bf (and then we can add to it Thundering Herd 2: Electric Link Preview)
aaronpkhm, for email authentication, say you're signing in on a desktop computer but your email account is on your phone. you receive a link to your email address and click it from your phone. you'd expect that to sign in the session on the desktop, and not sign in on the phone, right?
skippyZegnat: i feel like i'm missing something with selfauth. I have separate instances installed on my two different domains. This seems sub-optimal. I'd like to be able to sign into both domains using one identity only. But when I try to point one domain's auth endpoint to the other, selfauth fails. Am I wrong in thinking this should work?
ZegnatThat’s not really how IndieAuth works. If you decide an authorization_endpoint for a website, it is always used to authenticate for that specific domain. So if you have an authorization_endpoint on domain1.com and then point domain2.com at that same one, you can’t actually have the authentication end up being for domain1.com again.
ZegnatWhat could be done is that the endpoint supports a separate password for the separate domain names. But domain2.com can ever only authenticate as domain2.com. Or did I misunderstand?
aaronpksounds like selfauth needs to support multiple identities then. your other option is to play with the multi-account micropub stuff that's starting to be implemented
ZegnatCan’t you just use the same authorization endpoint and token endpoint for both websites? Just means both micropub endpoint will need to accept the same tokens?
aaronpkactually yeah that should work, it just means your micropub endpoint needs to accept a token issued to domain1 when it gets a request to domain2
ZegnatI don’t think there is anything actually coupling these things ... The only thing coupled is that the micropub endpoint needs to know where to validate the token. That’s all
ZegnatI don’t right now see a technical reason why the micropub endpoint would care about which authorization_endpoint was used though. So that shouldn’t be the blocker.
ZegnatI think it is actually an assumption from the Micropub client, rather than an actual limit. The Micropub client assumes that you want to login as domain2. While in reality, you want to log in as domain1 even when you let it do micropub endpoint discovery on domain2 :P
ZegnatYou would want to tell the client: “I want you to use the micropub and token endpoint you discover on domain2, but for the indieauth step, treat me as domain1.”
tantek.comedited /Medium (+707) "Medium's Nagware changed from 14 to 3 articles per month before triggering, note WP Plugin should have its own page (along with cat link)" (view diff)
Loqiembed is code (usually just HTML like an iframe, sometimes with JS) for showing content from another website on your website or inside a post that is included by viewer’s browser and typically has some interactive aspect (more than just a static image / audio / video file) https://indieweb.org/embed
tantekotherwise you are claiming the canonical identifier for the h-cite (which is what u-uid inside an h-cite means) *is* the JPG, which is false, since the h-cite at a minimum includes information like authorship etc.
ZegnatYou might add a rel="license" on the CC link. But I am not sure how rel-license is scoped. And you wouldn’t want to have it interpreted as the licence for the entire HTML file (probably)
jgmac1106so it is okay to have some links inside of h-entry or h-cite with without a u-url at all? Sorry to be pain, trying to wrap my head around this and there is just like fifteen links in there
Zegnatu-url implies it is *the* URL for whatever the object expresses. So for h-entry, that would be the permalink. For an h-cite, the source you are citing. Etc.
Loqi[kevinmarks]: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 58 minutes ago: this one is for you since you know the history, want to define "thundering herd"? https://indieweb.org/s/11Bf (and then we can add to it Thundering Herd 2: Electric Link Preview)
jgmac1106…but this begs the questionif I host a pdf on my own server shoudl I include a u-uid link to wherever the pdf legally lives…hmmm thanks for help all
ZegnatI noticed that too when talking about it at IWCs. People see and use mf2 in the context of markup snippets from the indieweb wiki. But they don’t actually understand them. One reason why I want to keep doing microformats sessions at events I go to
jgmac1106I honestly got confused when I asked why do I use u-url when there is an <a> tag and folks said, “because parsers” I might have literally gone through and added u-url and u-photo to every link a blog post thinking it was an h-entry….Luckily I always got too lazy
jgmac1106[kevinmakrs] dependant on whether you goolge microformats or microformats2 I need to double check on the redirects from microformats.org but I remember landing different places. Could be wrong, memory is hazy
jgmac1106as the next line tells you to “You should add h-entry markup to your homepage and permalinks” so this caused part of my confusion. I have been using h-entry for any course module thinking that it is “episodic"
Zegnat“Is this an h-entry?” = “Could I put this in a collection of other things like it, e.g. in an h-feed?” The answer to that could be yes for course modules. It is also yes for mostly anything that could be a piece of writing/article, including static pages / wiki pages / etc.
ZegnatAnother question is to look at it from a consumer standpoint. E.g. aaronpk has said several times that he likes microformats because then he doesn’t need to think about parsing the DOM himself. So if you have a reason to consume the HTML, that might also be a valid reason to think about adding mf2.
ZegnatI think Loqi uses a mf2 parser to consume the wiki pages to get the “What is...?” summaries etc. And wiki pages, with their titles and publishing times, make a lot of sense as h-entry even if it isn’t strictly a blog.
jgmac1106something like: h-entry is the <a link to mf2 h-entry page>microformats2 </a> vocabulary for marking up pages and posts web sites. The most prevalent use case is to mark-up episodic or time series based content such as blog posts. However h-entry can be used on static pages or wiki entries that a user may one day want to a add to a feed if they were interested in getting updates on a reader
Zegnath-entry on indieweb.org is probably best for looking at it from the indieweb perspective. Which, for the time being, is basically limited to blog posts because that is what people have been publishing
ZegnatI mean ... it is a wiki. So do go in and change it if you think it needs clarifying. Seeing as you had trouble grasping the use-cases yourself, you might be the best person to add clarifications. (Or start an FAQ section.)
jgmac1106can’t wait till my students subscribe to courses using a reader and my reader pulls in all my posts, and I get to comment from the reader. Nuthang but GTS
Loqi Web sign-in is signing in to websites using your personal web address (without having to use your e-mail address) https://indieweb.org/Web_sign-in
[cleverdevil] For anyone curious about /Futurepub, here is the code -> https://github.com/cleverdevil/futurepub
www.boffosocko.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facepiles for reads.PNG]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facepiles_for_reads.PNG"
aaronpk I would say either https://indieweb.org/Web_sign-in or that plugin's wiki page
GWG Maybe I should do a rewrite of that URL to something nicer. like /websignin
Zegnat I stick to what I discussed with Jeena on his podcast: the domain is the important part, because that is the actual identity part of you being online. Want to start with a website? Get a cheap one.com (or similar) shared hosting package where you do not have to care about the server side at all and can just drop stuff on that you want to use.
KartikPrabhu jgmac1106: that is not a great analogy
petermolnar so, markdown flavours: I use Pandoc as: markdown+backtick_code_blocks+auto_identifiers+fenced_code_attributes+definition_lists+grid_tables+pipe_tables+strikeout+superscript+subscript+markdown_in_html_blocks+shortcut_reference_links+autolink_bare_uris+raw_html+link_attributes+header_attributes+footnotes
[kevinmarks] I tried to log into indielogin.com with twitetr and got a redirection to indieauth.com and an error
[jgmac1106] Yeah @gwg 8:30 our time.
loqi.me edited /static_maps (+93) "Zegnat added "https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/self-hosting-maps-control-privacy-ux/" to "See Also"" (view diff)
sebastiangreger.net created /OpenMapTiles (+400) "adding self-hosting solution to wiki; link to blog post with step-by-step guide" (view diff)
gregorlove.com edited /domain_name_registrar (+99) "/* Registrars */ namecheap whoisguard" (view diff)
tantek !tell kevinmarks this one is for you since you know the history, want to define "thundering herd"? https://indieweb.org/s/11Bf (and then we can add to it Thundering Herd 2: Electric Link Preview)
skippy Zegnat: i feel like i'm missing something with selfauth. I have separate instances installed on my two different domains. This seems sub-optimal. I'd like to be able to sign into both domains using one identity only. But when I try to point one domain's auth endpoint to the other, selfauth fails. Am I wrong in thinking this should work?
tantek.com edited /Medium (+707) "Medium's Nagware changed from 14 to 3 articles per month before triggering, note WP Plugin should have its own page (along with cat link)" (view diff)