#dev 2018-09-25

2018-09-25 UTC
iasai, rwg16, [jgmac1106], niklasl, veremitz20 and pstuifzand joined the channel
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[jgmac1106] best part of posting an event on Known was throwing the post in a parser and seeing the different stylesheet for comments....and now knowing why all of my custom css trying to make comments prettier never worked
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@t @jgmac1106 @benwerd consider the glass half-full: * Lots of @-mentions violate policy? Use domain-mentions! A little work to get @mlb players domains; surely as celebs they have them. If(when) they enable Webmentions, they decide instead of Twitter! http://tantek.com/t4wd3 (twitter.com/_/status/1044397006221967360)
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@t ↩️ consider the glass half-full: * Lots of @-mentions violate policy? Use domain-mentions! A little work to get @mlb players domains; surely as celebs they have them. If(when) they enable Webmentions, they decide instead of Twitter! http://tantek.com/t4wd3 (twitter.com/_/status/1044397694301679616)
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tantek___ reviews his working on and itches re: responses
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tantek___ is going to edit it on the train ride home
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@tmcw ↩️ i'm kind of sold on webmention - been silently using http://webmention.io for a while, but the volume hasn't convinced me to display the results onsite. i'm not sure that it relies on h-card/entry, though, and the many many http://schema.org schemas don't have consumers (twitter.com/_/status/1044419700669575168)
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KidReese777 Hi everyone, I'm Reese
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Ruxton Hi Reese
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GWG Hi, Reese, Ruxton
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KidReese777 Nice to make your acquaintance Ruxton
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KidReese777 and GWG
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GWG What brings you here?
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KidReese777 I am a freelance web dev all alone out here, looking for other like me
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KidReese777 like the "green eyes" on the show "Humans"
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GWG Are you familiar with the Indieweb?
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@tmcw ↩️ but even something like h-card - it predates the webmention spec by a solid decade, but i struggle to find any implementation or usecase served that isn't just webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/1044434284126253057)
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Ruxton jumps on the thread
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tantek__ not quite, hCard yes, but h-card is newer than that. though h-card does predate webmention, not by that much
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tantek__ In other news, this crossed my radar re: open data standards: https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/24/microsoft-sap-and-adobe-take-on-salesforce-with-their-new-open-data-initiative-for-customer-data/
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Ruxton Man i remember the first microformats and DiSO talks i saw.. *mind blown*
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@aaronpk ↩️ That’s tricky. hCard (Microformats 1) was/is indexed by Google. The Webmention spec (published in 2017) was published after years of implementations working in the wild. Before Webmention existed, h-card/h-entry was used with Pingback to send comments back and forth. (twitter.com/_/status/1044436721763381249)
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tantek__ aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 104 karma in this channel over the last year (308 in all channels)
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tantek__ Ruxton - with the WordPress plugins that the #indieweb-wordpress folks have developed (and are using), the DiSo vision has been realized!
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GWG I never saw those
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GWG What did they say?
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Ruxton tantek__: almost yeah :)
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Ruxton teh only thing really missing is a solid theme with support for everything, otherwise the plumbing is all there.
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GWG I'm still having plumbing troubles
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Ruxton I just pray to Tim Berners-Lee it all gets accepted as W3C spec and the world jumps on board
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tantek__ Ruxton which? Webmention is already a W3C Recommendation
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tantek__ also the connection between "accepted as W3C spec" and "the world jumps on board" is quite tenuous
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aaronpk Ruxton: as is Micropub and WebSub :-) we were busy for a few years
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tantek__ Ruxton, WDYT of https://spec.indieweb.org/ btw? Any suggestions for improvements?
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Ruxton tantek__: pretty good for fronting a lot of info.. it might be worth having a shorter/more concse "Why" section that then links to the wiki page, as that gets quite long
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Ruxton it's also the first time i've read the code of conduct, didnt even realise it existed
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strugee jeremycherfas: Mercurial isn't a git frontend, it's a separate version control system
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Loqi strugee: jeremycherfas left you a message 22 hours, 53 minutes ago: I’m just dabbling so paying is not an option unless it really improves things. Currently using SourceTree. Is there anything else you think I should try?
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strugee I wasn't really mentioning it as a suggestion for you specifically. basically just talking out loud
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strugee what is DiSo?
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Loqi DiSo Project was a 2007-2010 era project to encourage "interoperable building blocks for the decentralized social web" https://indieweb.org/DiSo
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strugee tantek__++ for the "tenuous" remark
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Loqi tantek__ has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (90 in all channels)
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strugee and for linking to https://spec.indieweb.org ;)
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strugee I feel like after Aaron put it up I should've made sure it was in the right places in the wiki, but I didn't
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strugee I may try tomorrow if I remember
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KartikPrabhu that should have microformats as the oldest standard used in indiweb no?
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tantek__ it's on GH right? possible to file that as an issues or pull request KartikPrabhu ?
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+637) "rethink bits of showing responses and reply-contexts" (view diff)
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strugee KartikPrabhu: IIRC when I was writing it I didn't include Microformats because it wasn't a standard written for the IndieWeb specifically
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strugee the page was supposed to be "things the IndieWeb has made" rather than "things the IndieWeb has used"
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strugee but that being said a) I'm really not married to it b) I suppose honestly mf2 basically is made by the IndieWeb nowadays since folks are so involved upstream and c) it's late here and I'm tired so I should go to bed :-)
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strugee https://github.com/indieweb/spec.indieweb.org if anyone wants it
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Loqi [indieweb] spec.indieweb.org: Landing page for IndieWeb specs
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strugee should probably be linked from the footer or something
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KartikPrabhu I vote for c)
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tantek__ what is spec.indieweb.org
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "spec.indieweb.org" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "spec.indieweb.org is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ ^^^ go for it strugee KartikPrabhu. a small stub page with GH link etc. makes it discoverable
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Zegnat Hmm. After yesterday’s WebDAV talks, I wonder if there is any value in adding “test suite” links to the spec.indieweb.org page. So when we link it to show people standards that have been developed, we automatically link them to tests
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jacky so like
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jacky it doesn't looks like there's a "fixed" list of scopes
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jacky https://indieweb.org/scope has some listings
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jacky like I thought 'read' was just reading h-card info
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jacky but it looks like it's for microsub
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jacky kinda want to have some baseline stuff
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jacky but tbh there's nothing stopping anyone from just `curl`-ing a site and reading a site's h-card info
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Zegnat Scopes are specifically a thing in authorization (OAuth) tokens and they are decided on by the service that is consuming the token. Micropub and Microsub just establish some scopes so clients can be interoperable.
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jacky word
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Zegnat If your websites requires me to have authorization to access your h-card, then you can check what scopes I have gained authorization for and whether you want to display it or not. But that’s about the gist of it
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jacky so like I wanna have my site's indieauth page show me some info about the scopes that it's being requested for
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jacky which tbh from what you're saying sounds like I'd implicitly already know if I'm implementing things like micropub
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Zegnat Yes and no.
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jacky lol
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Zegnat So a Micropub client will do the IndieAuth flow to gain a token to use. It then requests scopes it thinks it needs (create, update, delete). But your IndieAuth endpoint decides what tokens it will give. Maybe you do not give delete (because you are testing a client you have less trust in) or whatever. Or maybe you add an extra scope for a client you trust to also create newsletter emails (add a scope “email”).
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jacky hmmm
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Zegnat E.g. sebsel has separate media and media-plus scopes that will depend on how much he trusts the client (does he want to limit the file type or not) https://indieweb.org/scope#Scopes_supported_by_IndieWeb_servers
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Zegnat Should get him to provide a screenshot of that on his IndieAuth endpoint as inspiration for others
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Zegnat There was a discussion here about adding custom scopes: https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth/issues/26
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Zegnat Hasn’t been implemented (yet) but did implement the option to toggle the scopes that were being requested (includes screenshot): https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth/pull/28
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Loqi [sknebel] #26 Allow changing the granted scopes
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Loqi [Zegnat] #28 Allow user to cherry pick scopes.
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Zegnat Sorry for the information dump jacky! :) Just some background to this stuff. Feel free to continue to ask questions, of course!
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jacky nah it's all good
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[eddie] So I have h-card questions. 🤔 Essentially I want eddiehinkle.com to be my primary website, so that I use eddiehinkle.com to log in to IndieAuth, Micropub apps, etc. But I want to have an “about me” page that contains all of my h-card info because I want to experiment with adding more details than the typical “name, url and photo”
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[eddie] That means for my posts I would need to point my h-card url to the about me page instead of my homepage? (eddiehinkle.com)
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[eddie] I think the other question is, do I need to somehow link eddiehinkle.com to my about page? To essentially say if you are wondering who owns this page, look at this h-card over there?
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[jgmac1106] no put an h-card on the homepage and one on the about me page
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[jgmac1106] if you put it in the header or footer you will have two on the about me page
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[jgmac1106] that is how I do it on http://jgregorymcverry.com/ and http://jgregorymcverry.com/about-me-2/
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Loqi Greg McVerry
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[eddie] Oh yay, examples. For some reason the description wasn’t clicking. I’ll take a look at those two urls
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Loqi yay!
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[jgmac1106] both are handcoded on the homepage its small the about me I play with the long paragraph format but sometimes parses pick up an h card in the comments and not mine
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[jgmac1106] ...and I see the problem.....the h-card widget comes through on that page so I eneded up with two...going to remove it
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[jgmac1106] http://jgregorymcverry.com/about-me-2/ okay fixed no double hcard on the about em page
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Loqi Greg McVerry
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[eddie] Phew, my 2 month old son is back asleep. Now I can resume checking out your h-cards 🙂
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[eddie] hmm interesting
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[eddie] Thanks for sharing
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Zegnat [eddie]: I think adactio has an example of the about page. And there have been brain storms about discovering the more conplete one through linking. But I am not sure anyone actually does such discovery
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Zegnat About to dig into lunch, happy to try and dig up some documented info later though
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[eddie] Cool, thanks Zegnat. I’ll check out Adactio
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[eddie] Interesting, looks like adactio does the same thing as jgmac1106. Mini h-card on homepage, big h-card on about page
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[eddie] ahh and then he links to the about page with rel=“author”
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[eddie] Also I found the rest of the documentation here: https://indieweb.org/h-card#Issues
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[eddie] So it seems like I should leave my h-card the way it is and I can add a new about me page with an h-card, but I shouldn’t really change my homepage as there aren’t any consuming use cases yet of linking between the homepage h-card and the about me h-card
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swentel hmm aaronpk, I read you can reply to mastodon users, do you have any example code of that, specifically looking how the body should look like. tested too many variantions now and nothing showing up on mastodon sadly :/
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[jgmac1106] [eddie] doesn't mean you can't add a "read more" or "learn more" on the mini hcard pointing to the bigger one
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[eddie] Oh, that’s a good idea jgmac1106!
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aaronpk swentel: lol yeah there's a few key details to get that to work that aren't really documented anywhere
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swentel aaronpk, yeah, been able to get 'Accept' working, that's at least something :)
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swentel but replies are funky to say at least
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aaronpk IIRC it requires that you add a mention to the tags list, the text also has to mention the user, and then the reply url needs to be set obviously
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swentel aaronpk, this is how my object looks like atm https://gist.github.com/swentel/feed5fad34f2c578c47ec87cd1f3e762 - tips welcome :)
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aaronpk Huh that looks right at first glance but it's early and I only slept a little on that red eye flight so I might be missing something
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] I ended up with a google alert as well for that last webmention you sent. That is the first time that has happened with a webmention
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[jgmac1106] [eddie] interesting though is Adacito hcard isn't picked up in Indigenous for me
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[eddie] Yeah, I think the issue with that is the feed doesn’t have a link to the h-Card
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[eddie] As opposed to there being an issue with the h-card
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Zegnat and I’m back from lunch
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Zegnat Ah, most of the issue was captured on the h-card page for all to find :) Good to see
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Zegnat Hmm, what adactio feed doesn’t have an author?
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aaronpk His are missing the author for me too
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cweiske the beauty of h-feed. you can fetch author information from the rel=author url linked on his homepage
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cweiske don't repeat yourself and all
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Zegnat The authorship algorithm still hasn’t been adapted for feeds, I think... otherwise that would have been the expected outcome, yeahh
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Zegnat Although there is a rel="author" on the separate entry pages and that one isn’t found by the testing tool either, so that’s a bit strange: https://sturdy-backbone.glitch.me/test?url=https%3A%2F%2Fadactio.com%2Flinks%2F14366
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Zegnat I would expect step 6.1 to work for adactio
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aaronpk Ah yeah, if I start fetching permalinks then I'd find the author info
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aaronpk Zegnat: XRay is getting a 406 trying to fetch that https://xray.p3k.app/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fadactio.com%2Flinks%2F14366&pretty=true
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cweiske not acceptable
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Zegnat Huh. That page is definitely online for me
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Zegnat lol cweiske
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Zegnat What accept headers does that XRay instance use, aaronpk?
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cweiske what accept headers does xray send?
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aaronpk Some long list I forget
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aaronpk I bet he's looking at only the first :-(
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Zegnat Accept: application/mf2+json, application/activity+json, text/html, application/json, application/xml, text/xml
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Zegnat In the default fetch, it looks like
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Zegnat Cf. https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=accept+repo%3Aaaronpk%2FXRay+extension%3Aphp+path%3A%2Flib&type=Code&ref=advsearch&l=&l=
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/master/lib/XRay/Fetcher.php#L74
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Zegnat Putting text/html first does not help
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Zegnat Only `Accept: text/html` doesn’t even work. Hu
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Zegnat Adding a */* fixes it, but this feels like a misconfiguration in adactio’s server somewhere
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aaronpk odd
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[kevinmarks] odd, I can fetch it OK with unmung
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[kevinmarks] http://www.unmung.com/indiecard?url=https%3A%2F%2Fadactio.com%2Flinks%2F14366
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Loqi The State of Fieldset Interoperability - Bocoup
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[kevinmarks] conneg--
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Loqi conneg has -3 karma over the last year
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Zegnat [kevinmarks], what accept header are you using?
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vanderven.se martijn edited /authorship (+657) "/* Questions */ current algorithm doesn’t find {{adactio}}’s author-page on permalink articles" (view diff)
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@jackyalcine ↩️ What do you mean? For each service, there's a bit of demo implementation. For the #IndieWeb, if you want IndieAuth, https://indielogin.com exists. For WebMentions? There's https://webmention.io. Unless you mean like reference code to roll your own system/service. (twitter.com/_/status/1044637386976649216)
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@EddieHinkle ↩️ Awesome! Webmentions was what originally attracted me to the IndieWeb. you are right, they don’t require microformats. For them to be their best (communicate post intent: like, reply, rsvp, mention) you need some type of data sitting on the src url (https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/25/24/reply/) (twitter.com/_/status/1044641518546550786)
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tantek__ and the tweets are already here
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jacky right!
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jacky it's just a matter of wiring it together for folx
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[eddie] Hmmm, yeah I’m not sure what he means by a “single fully-formed consumer”?
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[eddie] https://twitter.com/tmcw/status/1044642323491999744
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@tmcw @jackyalcine there's discussion in the thread, but the gist is that stuff like h-card is a decade-old spec without a single fully-formed consumer. mostly the same with h-entry. but instead of de-emphasizing these specs, they're at the top of the 'adopt indieweb' bits https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started (twitter.com/_/status/1044642323491999744)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+395) "re-organize a little, link each method of joining in the dfn for quick access, some description prose tweaking" (view diff)
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tantek__ aaronpk ^^^ review?
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loqi.me created /Operator (+77) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by tantek__" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Operator (+2) "linkify ('… is <url>' pattern)" (view diff)
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Zegnat !tell sknebel hmm, does this need a slightly different pattern matching? Leaves a hanging “is”: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52012&oldid=52011&rcid=51883
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel yeah
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Zegnat It also seemed to take the final period as part of the URL. Though I don’t know if that matters.
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vanderven.se martijn edited /Operator (+256) "Expand slightly" (view diff)
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tantek__ Zegnat, re: test suites on spec.indieweb.org - no need, each spec links directly to its test suite (or should)
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tantek__ better to keep spec.indieweb.org more minimal and easier to read instead of littering it with more links and prose
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tantek__ (sometimes when you add stuff, then people glaze over and miss everything, including the stuff you added because you wanted to make it more discoverable)
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Zegnat You are right, tantek__. I’ll have a look at the specs and see if they all link to test suites
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tantek__ informationarchitecture++
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Loqi informationarchitecture has 1 karma over the last year
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swentel hmm that's a nice page really, need to add that to my slides :)
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tantek__ strugee++
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Loqi strugee has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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Zegnat Operator << [https://github.com/mkaply/operator Code on GitHub]
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://github.com/mkaply/operator Code on GitHub]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Operator https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52015&oldid=52013
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loqi.me edited /Operator (+71) "Zegnat added "[https://github.com/mkaply/operator Code on GitHub]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi [mkaply] operator: The Firefox Operator Add-on
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@HeNeArXn ↩️ e.g. nearly everything built in the community that handles posts and wants to know a post's author is consuming it (webmention endpoints showing comments, readers, ...). It's basically always handled while implementing sth higher-level, and the things thus documented elsewhere. (twitter.com/_/status/1044667528516186112)
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[jgmac1106] what did I do wrong in this event I tried to manually markup? My RSCVP came out that I am attending my blog http://jgregorymcverry.com/7392-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Hey everyone just an important update for the #NHV dev community the response for @aaronpk’s OAuth 2.0 talk tonight was so overwhelming we had to move to a bigger venue! We will now be in Davis 101 from 7:30-9:00 OAuth 2.0 with Aaron Parecki July ...
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Zegnat !mf2 http://jgregorymcverry.com/7392-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Hey everyone just an important update for the #NHV dev community the response for @aaronpk’s OAuth 2.0 talk tonight was so overwhelming we had to move to a bigger venue! We will now be in Davis 101 from 7:30-9:00 OAuth 2.0 with Aaron Parecki July ...
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Hey everyone just an important update for the #NHV dev community the response for @aaronpk’s OAuth 2.0 talk tonight was so overwhelming we had to move to a bigger venue! We will now be in Davis 101 from 7:30-9:00 OAuth 2.0 with Aaron Parecki July ...
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Zegnat I don’t think I understand the question, [jgmac1106] ...
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Zegnat But that URL isn’t an event in itself, it is an h-event nested as a child of an h-entry. So maybe whatever you are using for RSVPing doesn’t understand that and requires an h-event?
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[jgmac1106] ahhh...was worried about that...looking at how Known does it the he-event is stand alone and not nested in the h-entry
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[jgmac1106] I think in WP I would have to set up each h-event as a page so it does not get nested in the h-entry of a post
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Zegnat Unless you can do a different post type (? kind?) that swaps the h-entry class for an h-event class. Yes.
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[jgmac1106] ...no we don't have an h-event post kind yet, would work as a page....I also made up p-building and p-room in the markup didn't know how to label those
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KartikPrabhu p-location
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KartikPrabhu there is no actual need to markup building and room separately
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[jgmac1106] I was going to focus on my WP exit plan at IWC NYC but the microformats badging stuff I am doing is getting a ton of steam and lookie loo's
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sknebel there is an event post kind, but I don't know if it can change the main class
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[jgmac1106] @karthikPrabhu you work on a college campus..if there was ever a need to mark them up separate...that's the use case....I figured it should go into p-location but I was feeling my inner @zegnat and wanted make up mf2 for all the words
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Zegnat Pfff. Make up properties? What gave you that idea!
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KartikPrabhu you need to have a building and room in the location, but you don't need to "mark them up"
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KartikPrabhu if there is no consuming code for the markup it is useless
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jacky is anyone opposed to making formal pages for some of these scopes?
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jacky so like I'm testing something for my site (v2!)
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jacky https://noctule.jacky.wtf/s/2b8RaSeE2ANssLx
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jacky IndieWeb9$ is the p/w
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jacky makes a note to make a shared folder that doesn't require passwords
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk not sure they need individual pages, but you can definitely document what you're doing here https://indieweb.org/scope
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jacky gotcha
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Zegnat js;dr? :P
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aaronpk did you have a use case for having a page for each scope?
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[eddie] jacky Looks good! Similar to my IndieAuth screen: https://indieweb.org/images/b/bd/abode-authorization-screen.png
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jacky aaronpk: yeah
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jacky largely for explanation what kind of stuff should be "allowed" for a client requested said scope
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jacky but the more I think about that
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jacky the more I find it to be implicit
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jacky okay
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jacky https://i.imgur.com/cNokMWT.png
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jacky v2 of that page
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jacky added a _lot_ of styling lol
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aaronpk Sweeet
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jacky _and_ it's mobile friendly
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jacky then it's ready to ship lol
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jacky it = signing in and making a post
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aaronpk woooo
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aaronpk exciting!
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[eddie] Fancy! I like it Jacky! Makes me want to finish styling mine because I definitely stopped short of making mine look nice
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jacky thank you!
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gRegorLove jacky++ looks good!
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Loqi jacky has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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Loqi That looks like spam, bye!
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Loqi That looks like spam, bye!
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