#dev 2018-09-24

2018-09-24 UTC
puddingpimp8, Gaasmann29, renem, Guest90962, ralu12, iasai, darxun11, sm7, SilverCode, tantek__ and barpthewire joined the channel
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jeremycherfas !tell aaronpk That is precisely my plan, at least on paper.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas !tell kevinmarks There is an xkcd for almost every eventuality. Thanks for that. Makes the pain more bearable.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas !tell strugee I’m just dabbling so paying is not an option unless it really improves things. Currently using SourceTree. Is there anything else you think I should try?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
OrangeShark14, cweiske, bogz14, ceemel, swaqs10, mbologna8, swentel, jeremych_, netmonger26, [jgmac1106], BrainDamage7, eli_oat, KartikPrabhu, [schmarty] and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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jacky from #-chat
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jacky wondering if more h-x-app services should expose things like a `byline` or `description`
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jacky the thing is
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jacky if you're _signing_ in to them, you'd already have an idea off the bat as to what they do
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jacky eh
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jacky another case was having a indie app list
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jacky and making it easy to let the app themselves define their 'store' info
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sknebel I saw on the wiki something used h-product too
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sknebel what is h-product?
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Loqi h-product is a microformats2 vocabulary for marking up product information on the web https://indieweb.org/h-product
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sknebel not sure what the thoughts on the relationship of the two is
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sknebel (aaronpk?)
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sknebel but at least the properties from there could be relevant for app too
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jacky hmm
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jacky yeah this works well
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jacky will make a note to expose this
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jeremycherfas !tell cweiske Are you still doing things with Grav and Twig?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske my grav project ended without me implementing anything indieweb-related
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Loqi cweiske: jeremycherfas left you a message 5 minutes ago: Are you still doing things with Grav and Twig?
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cweiske but if you have twig question, ask
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jeremycherfas Thanks. I have a php fuunction that takes an array and returns some parts of the array, because I just could not see how to address the parts in Twig. I can create the raw array in Twig: `{% set data = page.header.imports %}`
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jeremycherfas But I cannot work out how to send `data` to the function.
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jeremycherfas `{{ mymap(data) }}` gives an error: ("Undefined variable: data")
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jeremycherfas I'm way out of my depth here, because all the Twig documentation seems extremely terse and I cannot seem to uncover any lower-level explanations or tutorials. The example of a function in Grav does not do anything. It just returns a hard-coded string.
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cweiske sounds correct
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cweiske your set and then the func call
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jeremycherfas If I ignore the set, and use `{{ mymap(page.header.imports) }}` I almost the same error, An exception has been thrown during the rendering of a template ("Undefined variable: data")
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cweiske isn't that a different variable name?
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jeremycherfas That's the variable in the set command.
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cweiske can you share the template in a pastebin?
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jeremycherfas At the moment, I am processing twig on the page, I can put the page and the function into gists.
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jeremycherfas https://gist.github.com/jeremycherfas/9c0726592de342598a7add1182619be5 and https://gist.github.com/jeremycherfas/85b12a5b65924be51b51442c9db96fb8
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jeremycherfas I have tested the page with examples, and it works.
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jeremycherfas And I know that the function works, at least when it it just a standalone PHP program.
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cweiske did you enable the twig debugger in grav?
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cweiske https://learn.getgrav.org/advanced/debugging#dump-command-for-twig
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jeremycherfas Yes. What I see in the debug bar is generally what I expect. And the error display page is useful as far as it goes. But it doesn't help me to understand the problem in more detail.
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jeremycherfas It tells me that there is an undefined variable data, which is clearly somewhere in my function, but I cannot for the life of me see how that might be.
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jeremycherfas I had hoped to have this ready for IWC Nurnberg, but honestly it looks as if I should save it to be my project there. :(
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swentel snarfed, you won't believe the amount of variations I've tried for replying :)
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snarfed swentel: oh god i'll believe it. i did the same thing while i was building bridgy fed initially
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Loqi snarfed: Zegnat left you a message 1 day, 4 hours ago: Yeah I knew about the Telegraph-webhook-feature. I was just specifically looking at Mastodon now :) Thought different weekend plans came up so the webmention bridge is getting slightly delayed.
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swentel I should start writing them down, because I'm sure I've done a couple of variations at least twice :)
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snarfed thank you so much, you're doing god's work
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swentel well it's interesting learn about AP
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snarfed yes! please do! put them in one of the issues or the readme, or the indieweb mastodon page. really valuable to capture!
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swentel but there isn't much documentation to find :/
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Loqi yea!
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snarfed yeah both AP and mastodon's specific req'ts, since eg auth is badly underspecified/not specified in AP
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snarfed yeah i had to go by what they wrote in issues like https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/4906 , and lots of experiments
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Loqi [annando] #4906 How does Mastodon work concerning ActivityPub?
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swentel even people trying to implement it following the blog post on mastodon can't get it work :)
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swentel https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/8328
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Loqi [generaltso] #8328 My toot doesn't show up :(
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aaronpk I should really write up my notes finally
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Loqi aaronpk: jeremycherfas left you a message 9 hours, 24 minutes ago: That is precisely my plan, at least on paper.
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aaronpk I had to do all sorts of unrelated things to make my notes and replies finally show up on mastodon and pleroma
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Loqi yea!
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jacky that'd be great
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jacky I've been working on my own (new) site
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jacky and it has indieauth and micropub support
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jacky that'd be excellent timing
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boffosocko.com edited /algorithmic_feed (+812) "Twitter timeline hacks and forthcoming changes to the algorithmic timeline" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /next-iwc (-3) "NYC" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Saw this over the weekend, from the makers of Sublime Text: https://www.sublimemerge.com/
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gRegorLove I think I'll try it out. I like SourceTree ok, but it feels clunky sometimes.
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gRegorLove oops, maybe more for -chat
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tantek__ aaronpk, your experience with what it takes to deliver to AP inboxes of your followers would be useful in -dev IMO
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tantek.com edited /MySpace (+174) "new articles section, add 2007 Guardian article about MySpace monopoly" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MySpace (-1) "indent per context" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Salesforce (+0) "link dfn, redlink CRM" (view diff)
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tantek__ heh
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tantek.com edited /Salesforce (+78) "note annual Dreamforce conference" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Dreamforce (+24) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /CRM (+46) "r" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /addressbook (+21) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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tantek__ I need to explore some form of at least displaying reactions on my posts, at least as a count + list of @-names (since showing icons is more work, showing someone else's content etc.)
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tantek.com edited /contacts (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek__++ yes!!!!!
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Loqi tantek__ has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (89 in all channels)
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tantek__ uh oh what did I (not) do? 😂
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loqi.me created /chat_topics (+34) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek__: oh, heh. just that you want to work on showing responses on your site
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tantek.com edited /CardDAV (+20) "cat jargon" (view diff)
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tantek__ snarfed, yes, I'm trying to keep thinking of ways of reducing the feature/task to a smaller thing to reduce the # of unknowns / issues
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tantek__ I suppose I should document those in case the "simpler" version of a feature is helpful to other implementers
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tantek__ re: implementing CardDAV API as a server (aaronpk, AngeloGladding, snarfed), any test suite(s) for it? (I'm guessing no)
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tantek__ similarly WebDAV?
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AngeloGladding hmm what do you mean tantek__?
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: where is a/the test suite for CardDAV? both for CardDAV clients and servers?
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tantek__ similarly for WebDAV
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tantek__ also, can we replace CardDAV with Micropub of h-card objects instead?
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AngeloGladding interesting..
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tantek__ perhaps a feature for silo.pub: Micropub of h-card -> silo.pub -> CardDAV server
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Zegnat The problem with replacing CardDAV with Micropub is that the built-in apps for contacts on current phones do not do Micropub ;)
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snarfed hmm, sounds like a...bridge? 😎
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tantek__ perhaps another feature for silo.pub: CardDAV client -> silo.pub -> Micropub of h-card
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AngeloGladding yeah
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tantek__ Zegnat, the problem with not having a test suite is you're endlessly frustrated by weird bugs and interop problems
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AngeloGladding there was very poor documentation on carddav when i was poking around
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AngeloGladding i have no doubt that my implementation is iphone-specific
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tantek__ yeah in general a bridge is the right answer for wrapping both proprietary APIs, and poorly documented / tested standards
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AngeloGladding as we were just discussing -- this data is very private
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snarfed bridges can do private data just as well as public
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AngeloGladding yeah.. it's just upping the game i think
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AngeloGladding whenever you *touch* your address book the server gets pinged
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AngeloGladding on iphone at least
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tantek__ or run the bridge yourself
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AngeloGladding which is obviously my opinion
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tantek__ OSS bridges are the way to go
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Zegnat I agree there
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tantek__ so you choose
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tantek__ your time / privacy / security trade-offs
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Zegnat I’d love to hear petermolnar on CardDAV interoperability / testing. He has blogged about using at least 3 different server implementations
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tantek__ (sometimes using service that spends more time on privacy & security is *better* than trying to host/admin it yourself)
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tantek__ (I believe snarfed has convinced me of that)
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snarfed heh. god yes. most people don't want to, don't know how to, and/or shouldn't have to be sysadmins. even most technical people and engineers.
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Zegnat The problem I always have with any not-self-hosted thing for address books is that it isn’t just my privacy, but the privacy of every single person I write down in my address book too. (But lets not rehash the entire philosophical discussion about how you don’t know how well any individual you give details to is going to protect them.)
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snarfed Zegnat: the fallacy there is the idea that self hosted is more secure or private than outsourcing to a trusted, competent third party.
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snarfed the vast majority of people are not good sysadmins. if they self host, they'll therefore get bad security and privacy
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snarfed anyway, sorry, i'll stop rehashing :P
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AngeloGladding man..
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AngeloGladding we should be the sysadmins for their self-hosted software
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AngeloGladding i won't even begin to rehash..
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AngeloGladding :)
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Loqi yea
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AngeloGladding anyway, i've got some working carddav python code
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Zegnat (Just leaving this here too, for people interested: https://petermolnar.net/search.php?q=carddav )
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Loqi Peter Molnar
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: what do you mean by "working" (passes a test suite? interops with Apple/Google phone/cloud?)
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AngeloGladding tantek__ a contact goes in one side, winds up on the other, and vice versa -- on iOS 11.x
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AngeloGladding the "person db" is the part im reintegrating now
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AngeloGladding i can abstract it away
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AngeloGladding it supported photo
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tantek__ so you're able to configure your iOS device to use your own personal server?
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AngeloGladding yes
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tantek__ nice!
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tantek__ AngeloGladding++
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Loqi AngeloGladding has 1 karma over the last year
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AngeloGladding ~300 lines of Python+XML
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AngeloGladding i'll abstract it a bit, give it some polish and present it to you guys for further bridging
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tantek.com edited /CardDAV (+298) "IndieWeb Examples, start Angelo Gladding support" (view diff)
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Zegnat Hmm. Apparently webdav.org used to have a WebDAV (and possible CardDAV?) testing suit called litmus. But because that entire website is down now, you’d have to find the tests somewhere else :/
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: can you add some details to your personal use / support of CardDAV? https://indieweb.org/CardDAV#Angelo_Gladding
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tantek__ zegnat oh? which site is down?
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Zegnat webdav.org
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Zegnat At least for me it is
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Zegnat Both ownCloud and Sabre refer to http://www.webdav.org/neon/litmus/ for testing their implementation
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tantek__ could you add it to https://indieweb.org/site-deaths#Unknown_Year ? sounds like another protocol/format specific site that was neglected and died (see others there like poco)
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AngeloGladding i didn't resort to reverse engineering via MITM proxy for no reason
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AngeloGladding there is not one single piece of documentation that will get you to where you're going
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Zegnat What is WebDAV?
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Loqi WebDAV is an HTTP-based protocol used to create and edit files on a server that has some IndieWeb adoption https://indieweb.org/WebDAV
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AngeloGladding but the whole experience was blissfully restful
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Zegnat WebDAV << [https://web.archive.org/web/20171006064353/http://www.webdav.org:80/neon/litmus/ Litmus] was a test suite for the first WebDAV standard (RFC 2518)
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://web.archive.org/web/20171006064353/http://www.webdav.org:80/neon/litmus/ Litmus] was a test suite for the first WebDAV standard (RFC 2518)" to the "See Also" section of /WebDAV https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51971&oldid=19859
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AngeloGladding so i'm torn :)
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AngeloGladding ahem *RESTful*
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vanderven.se martijn edited /site-deaths (+347) "/* Unknown Year */ Add webdav.org" (view diff)
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Zegnat There you go, tantek__ :)
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tantek__ ok now we wait a day before stirring the pot
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Zegnat Oh, looks like Apple has a CalDAV and CardDAV tester too: https://www.calendarserver.org/CalDAVTester.html
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Zegnat So the format isn’t entirely without test suites.
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AngeloGladding those pages are giving me flashbacks
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Zegnat Haha
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tantek__ what is CalDAV
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Loqi CalDAV is a protocol for syncing calendars https://indieweb.org/CalDAV
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Zegnat Have you ever tried running that tester, AngeloGladding? I would expect that it would confirm your code to work with iOS if it passes their own tests?
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tantek__ CalDAV << CardDAV
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Loqi ok, I added "[[CardDAV]]" to the "See Also" section of /CalDAV https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51974&oldid=42630
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tantek__ CardDAV << CalDAV
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Loqi ok, I added "[[CalDAV]]" to a new "See Also" section of /CardDAV https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51975&oldid=51970
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loqi.me edited /CardDAV (+30) "tantek__ added "[[CalDAV]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek__ CalDAV << Apple CalDAV tester: https://www.calendarserver.org/CalDAVTester.html
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Loqi ok, I added "Apple CalDAV tester: https://www.calendarserver.org/CalDAVTester.html" to the "See Also" section of /CalDAV https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51976&oldid=51974
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tantek__ CardDAV << Apple CardDAV tester: https://www.calendarserver.org/CalDAVTester.html#running-caldavtester-by-itself
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Loqi ok, I added "Apple CardDAV tester: https://www.calendarserver.org/CalDAVTester.html#running-caldavtester-by-itself" to the "See Also" section of /CardDAV https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51977&oldid=51975
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tantek__ that's a start at least
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@EddieHinkle ↩️ @tmcw There’s a great article about Webmentions on A List Apart, if you haven’t read it: https://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet (https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/24/22/reply/) (twitter.com/_/status/1044333166608207874)
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: maybe see how many h-entry publishing sites you can crawl and build an index of h-entry blog posts across all those WordPress sites: https://twitter.com/tmcw/status/1044330302548529152
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@tmcw heck, with http://wordpress.org support h-entry, there are gazillions of sites on the internet with its microformats markup. is anyone doing anything with it? as far as i can tell, not really. (twitter.com/_/status/1044330302548529152)
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tantek__ and then reply to that tweet accordingly :)
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[eddie] A CardDAV bridge to an h-card nicknames cache would be amazing! I think my contacts are currently synced via iCloud but it would be amazing to have my contacts become my nicknames cache
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+356) "/* atomenabled.org */ link last archive of home page before minecraft spam" (view diff)
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tantek__ eddie, could be useful for indie /venues too
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[eddie] Interesting. I’ve never really added venues to my contacts but it would be an easy interface for my website
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AngeloGladding tantek__ is there an index?
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loqi.me created /single_standard_site (+364) "prompted by tantek__ and dfn added by tantek__" (view diff)
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AngeloGladding Zegnat i've downloaded and installed -- i'll try to configure and run
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AngeloGladding but i must say my implementation was rough and to the point
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+99) "/* Unknown Year */ poco zombie, unlink, unknown year of death, year of zombification" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+540) "research dates with archive.org and move Portable Contacts info to a new section in 2016 with dates and links" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /single_standard_site (+2) "hyphenate the adjectives describing the term" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com moved /single_standard_site to /single-standard_site
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[kevinmarks] We had a Facebook to poco thing that Bradfitz built a while back
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Loqi [kevinmarks]: jeremycherfas left you a message 16 hours, 2 minutes ago: There is an xkcd for almost every eventuality. Thanks for that. Makes the pain more bearable.
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[kevinmarks] 10 years ago: https://github.com/kevinmarks/addressbooker
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Loqi [kevinmarks] addressbooker: Address Book tool
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[kevinmarks] https://brad.livejournal.com/2398409.html
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+709) "find approximate dates of death, zombiefication" (view diff)
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@developerhcnews Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://bit.ly/2zqBCAH (twitter.com/_/status/1044344508601839616)
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kevinmarks.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+157) "OpenSocial connection" (view diff)
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tantek__ that's another site-death, since AFAIK all site content was dropped on the floor and the domain just redirects to a W3C blog post
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aaronpk if i could use my phone as my website's address book i would actually care about what's stored in my phone again lol
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aaronpk right now it's a giant mess of stuff stored on my iphone vs stored in google contacts, and i can't even tell how to add stuff in google contacts most of the time
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tantek.com edited /single-standard_site (+32) "link poco to its death" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] You can export google contacts as vcard
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[kevinmarks] There are still some apis, though gof knows what now
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@ysoto1 Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9im96n/webmentions_enabling_better_communication_on_the/ /u/fagnerbrack submitted by /u/fagnerbrack [link] [comments] https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9im96n/webmentions_enabling_better_communication_on_the/ (twitter.com/_/status/1044347673774608384)
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aaronpk most of the stuff in google i don't even care about because it was all automatically added and is a giant mess anyway
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+16) "/* OpenSocial */ site" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OpenSocial (+269) "note explicit site-death" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] Yeah. We had some selectors to deal with that, but it's been a decade.
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tantek.com edited /Portable_Contacts (+146) "note opensocial itself died as well, two years before PoCo site died" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /atomenabled (+44) "tantek__ added "[[single-standard site]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /single-standard_site (+167) "similar: opensocial, ostatus" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+261) "OStatus.org site death in 2012" (view diff)
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snarfed [kevinmarks] et al, re poco, https://github.com/snarfed/portablecontacts-unofficial
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Loqi [snarfed] portablecontacts-unofficial: UNMAINTAINED: A library and REST API that serves Facebook and Twitter user data in PortableContacts format
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aaronpk wow you really have been doing this bridging thing for a while!
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snarfed 😂😭
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tantek.com edited /OStatus (+974) "link current wiki, document original ostatus.org Site Death, W3C CG wiki link" (view diff)
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tantek__ well that's been a morbid Monday so far
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tantek__ hopefully documenting these dead-ends so others won't be as frustrated looking for them
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[kevinmarks] Between that and salesforce it's a history of my old jobs too
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tantek__ kevinmarks, perhaps a bit meta and a bit dev - any patterns among/across those sites / technologies that may have been causes of their deaths?
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[kevinmarks] So Google contacts api is up to version 3 https://developers.google.com/contacts/v3/ but that page suggests a People api instead
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tantek__ Contacts APIs in general have a horribly history
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[kevinmarks] And were weaponised by Facebook
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tantek__ [kevinmarks]: nothing to do with FB. contacts APIs got screwed up all on their own w/o any FB interference AFAIK
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tantek__ I suppose Apple and Google's support of CardDAV is keeping it on life support
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tantek__ but that's the exception AFAIK
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[kevinmarks] Because that was the last thing they interoperated with before fighting
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tantek__ why are they still fighting? didn't Steve Jobs pick that fight?
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tantek__ makes no sense. they both have incentive to collaborate, or at least massively interoperate using open standards against FB
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snarfed aaronpk: you inspired me to dig around in history a bit...my first bridge may have been my openid provider for google accounts, way back in 2008: https://snarfed.org/2008-04-07_google_app_engine_launched#OpenID
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tantek__ what does it matter which phone people buy (iPhone vs Android) if they end up using it as a mobile Facebook App runner?
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aaronpk snarfed: wooowww
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snarfed still up and running, with the design to prove it: https://openid-provider.appspot.com/
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tantek__ snarfed++ for /longevity
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Loqi snarfed has 67 karma in this channel over the last year (123 in all channels)
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snarfed lol for better or worse
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snarfed1 the corresponding consumer app has a fun "most recent" list of openid providers on random domains: https://openid-consumer.appspot.com/
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[kevinmarks] Do you remember j.mp/longpipe ?
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[kevinmarks] I think all the segments are dead now
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snarfed1 aww
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tantek.com edited /Android (+1729) "Criticism / Forced Location Tracking" (view diff)