#dev 2018-10-03

2018-10-03 UTC
tantek__, tbbrown, [jgmac1106] and renem joined the channel
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AngeloGladding testing IRC backfeed
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AngeloGladding what is sopel
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sopel" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "sopel is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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lahacker [ Login required - IndieWeb ] - indieweb.org
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AngeloGladding no clue why the bot dropped that in here
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AngeloGladding sopel is a Python based IRC bot
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Loqi ok
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AngeloGladding sopel << https://sopel.chat
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Loqi ok, I added "https://sopel.chat" to a brand new "See Also" section of /sopel https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52420&oldid=52419
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AngeloGladding now i see
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AngeloGladding what is pip
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Loqi pip is a tool for installing and managing Python packages https://indieweb.org/pip
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jacky s/tool/outdated tool/g
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jacky what is pipenv
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pipenv" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "pipenv is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky pipenv is a soon-to-be replacement for pip with virtual environment management and package resolution built-in.
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Loqi ok
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jacky pipenv << https://docs.pipenv.org/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://docs.pipenv.org/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /pipenv https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52424&oldid=52422
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AngeloGladding i'm really crossing my fingers that the transition is smooth
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KartikPrabhu pipenv doesn't look like a replacement for pip since it uses pip anyway https://pipenv.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/#make-sure-you-ve-got-python-pip
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AngeloGladding my system uses pip in an automated fashion to pull from git repositories via shell and python code
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AngeloGladding thanks for pointing that out KartikPrabhu
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AngeloGladding i can deprioritize it slightly now
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KartikPrabhu it does look like a good tool, but "replacement" is a bit much
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jacky word lemme update that
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AngeloGladding well to be fair i am using venv right along side anyway
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KartikPrabhu yeah I use venv+pip too
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jacky I used to for a while
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jacky pipenv lets you set up the venv in itself per-project
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jacky but eh
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jacky I don't write much python anymore
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AngeloGladding i like the deterministic build claims of kenneth reitz and i have a refactor of the installer afoot so actually this is great timing -- thanks jacky
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AngeloGladding what lang did you move to?
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jacky Elixir for most projects
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jacky personal that is
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jacky work had me doing a lot more Node and Python (at Lyft)
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AngeloGladding elixir -- exotic
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AngeloGladding what's your favorite part?
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jacky I think it's the "with" keyword
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jacky hold for link
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jacky ttps://git.jacky.wtf/me/next-gen-website/src/branch/feature/implement-indieauth/lib/web/controllers/indie/auth_controller.ex#L54-L84
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jacky ugh
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jacky https://git.jacky.wtf/me/next-gen-website/src/branch/feature/implement-indieauth/lib/web/controllers/indie/auth_controller.ex#L54-L84
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jacky it reduces the need to have a huge if -> if -> if block
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jacky someone even wrote about it
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jacky https://openmymind.net/Elixirs-With-Statement/
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AngeloGladding interesting -- kinda reminds of a python patternism using dictinoaries
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AngeloGladding kinda like how one uses a dictionary in place of a switch statement
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jacky yup!
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aaronpk You can always join #indieweb-chat to test stuff like that off the record
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AngeloGladding off the record?
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AngeloGladding oh ok
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Zegnat What is AP?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AP" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "AP is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What is ActivityPub?
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Loqi ActivityPub is a decentralized social networking protocol (W3C Recommendation) briefly known as ActivityPump, based on pump.io and ActivityStreams https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub
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Zegnat ActivityPub << Funkwhale’s [http://docs-funkwhale-funkwhale-549-music-federation-documentation.preview.funkwhale.audio/federation/index.html federation documentation] contains very clear examples of activities to be send around.
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Loqi ok, I added "Funkwhale’s [http://docs-funkwhale-funkwhale-549-music-federation-documentation.preview.funkwhale.audio/federation/index.html federation documentation] contains very clear examples of activities to be send around." to the "See Also" section of /ActivityPub https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=52443&oldid=52246
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petermolnar hm... my rss to [tumblr,wordpress,etc] bridge stopped working in ifttt
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petermolnar the dashboard says all fine
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petermolnar but it doesn't pick up new entries
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sknebel you didn't move/redirect the feed?
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sknebel change in the feed format of some kind?
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[Vincent] I have found both Ifttt and zapier picky with RSS feeds. Slight changes can bring it all to a halt. Might be worth checking for typos or unclosed tags in your feed
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@jgmac1106 @schmarty @anildash @_gw @jennschiffer Had random idea. When bunch of people collaborate or help on projects I don’t know who do give h/t to because many edits anonymous. What if someone could send a webmention when they edit a project? (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7623-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1047455845095809024)
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petermolnar I switched back to RSS for now, generated by python-feedgen, we'll see if ifttt likes it better or not
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[jgmac1106] also off the record as in it is considered bad form to quote or even shadow mention conversations, publicly from those channels
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@jgmac1106 Had good conversation with @schmarty about @glitch and tracking contributions through micropub and webmentions. **Problem:** I have people make anonymous edits to my projects and can not give thx as the logs are flattened upon export to GitHub… http://jgregorymcverry.com/7635-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/1047541423145451520)
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GWG I think I may need a Microformat consultant
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[jgmac1106] you sell yourself short, you know it well. Is this still for the media uploader?
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GWG I want to get the Microformats 2 markup in Post Kinds improved, so I want someone to look at it and check my work
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sknebel GWG: happy to take a look
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sknebel (and I'm sure Zegnat too once he's back)
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[jgmac1106] remember @gwg most post kinds are experimental, but nobody better than those two...but there is no answer to the question you ask, just more iteration until we all gel on a common practice
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GWG I will be asking some specific questions
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tantek__ specificquestions++
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Loqi specificquestions has 1 karma over the last year
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Zegnat does love mf2 questions
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[jgmac1106] starting the webmention badges repo: https://github.com/jgmac1106/webmention-badges should have a few contributors as the CompSci Department wants to get involved as well
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Loqi [jgmac1106] webmention-badges: Award, send, and receieve badges using webmentions
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@jgmac1106 Hey @downes @iamjessklein @ottonomy @schmarty Feel free to hop right in: https://github.com/jgmac1106/webmention-badges (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7637-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1047560592624685057)
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AngeloGladding what is xmdp?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "xmdp" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "xmdp is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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AngeloGladding what ever happened to xmdp?
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KartikPrabhu xmtp?
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sknebel xmpp?
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AngeloGladding lol
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AngeloGladding xmdp
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AngeloGladding http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp
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Loqi XMDP are XHTML Meta Data Profiles and the specification is documented externally at http://gmpg.org/xmdp/ See Also xmdp-origins xmdp-examples xmdp-faq xmdp-issues xmdp-brainstorming xmdp-profile html5-profile Retrieved from "h...
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sknebel ah
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tantek__ It mostly served its purpose of demonstrating you didn't really need namespace documents
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tantek__ certainly didn't need XML to do them
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tantek__ AngeloGladding: in practice there have been no use-cases requiring use of profiles
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tantek__ not unlike the realization with HTML5 that in practice there have been no use-cases requiring the use of DTDs
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tantek__ e.g. <!doctype html> is sufficient
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aaronpk i don’t really understand what that would do? it seems like parsing and recognizing the h-card is good enough
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AngeloGladding aaronpk to enable extensions to the h-card specification for example
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aaronpk "Extensions" isn't a use case unless you can describe exactly why you need that mechanism for an actual use case :-)
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AngeloGladding so i just feel like there's other people in the world that would benefit from a person-property that English speaking westerners won't know how to appreciate or navigate
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AngeloGladding and i'm thinking of marrying this directly to the internationalization of my project
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AngeloGladding so it's kinda loosely pie in the sky, curious about history and possibly directly useful
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aaronpk I'd recommend reading up on how microformats handles adding new properties both core and experimental or vendor specific
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aaronpk there's plenty of info in the microformats wiki
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Zegnat “a person-property”?
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Zegnat is pro at describing himself in microformats
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tantek___ what are extensions
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "extensions" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "extensions is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek___ what is an extension
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "extension" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "extension is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek___ extensions are not a use-case themselves, except for [[architecture astronomy]].
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Loqi ok
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tantek___ extension is /extensions
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Loqi ok
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AngeloGladding so if i give users of my software the ability to add custom properties to their h-card how can us in the indieweb analyze the in-the-wild extensions in aggregate?
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AngeloGladding x- prefixes?
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tantek___ better to start with a vendor prefix for your software
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tantek___ like Apple does for their Address Book custom properties
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tantek___ when you export vCards from Apple Address Book, you can see them
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AngeloGladding nm i don't want to get into the weeds
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AngeloGladding thank you tantek__ i'll start there
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AngeloGladding tantek___
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Zegnat p-canopy-something-or-another. And if you see a property come by lots of times, it is time to get it added to the wiki and described so other people can start parsing it too
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Zegnat Not sure what the value is to having the user decide property names for something though. As not even you are able to meaningfully parse that.
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Zegnat (Is me saying that while I have probably got 1 or 2 property names on my h-card that wouldn’t parse very well :P though most of them are experimental properties already documented on the wiki)
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AngeloGladding that helps Zegnat -- question is how quickly do you want the global lexicon to coalesce into one standard -- users deciding property names gives us a rich in-the-wild perspective of the true intentions behind the stated semantics -- anything's parseable and even a fuzzy grammar's worth something
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AngeloGladding grammar's not the right word
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KartikPrabhu it would be parseable but not "consumable"
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KartikPrabhu how would I know to look for a "x-myFancyproperty" in the parsed mf2?
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AngeloGladding that's kinda the crux of my original question
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AngeloGladding the mf wiki says to use p-x-myFanceproperty
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AngeloGladding so the parser will pick it up in the appropriate context
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KartikPrabhu yes, and if it gets adoption from both publishers and consumers then it will be added to the wiki so others can look it up. But if every user makes up property names then it becomes harder
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Zegnat Preferably you want to “coalesce” before too many different consuming use-cases exist. Because there is nothing worse than having to support a list of properties that all mean the same thing, imho.
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Zegnat I am not a fan of -x- (mostly because of the same reasons that inspired https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648), -vendor- prefixes make more sense. Again: imho.
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Zegnat Officially, only the first -word- is a vendor prefix.
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Zegnat But there is a different question to be asked first: what are the publishing and consuming use-cases?
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KartikPrabhu this seems pretty hypothetical
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AngeloGladding i'm trying to polish my person type right now
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AngeloGladding i've been thinking about it for a while
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AngeloGladding since xmdp really
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AngeloGladding lol
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Zegnat I am always a bit sceptical of words like “type” :P microformats are very good at being a flexible collection of properties, all with one or more values. That’s it. Especially with mf2 the parsing is kept fairly generic so lots of different things can be described.
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Zegnat I wouldn’t even be thinking about creating a schema, a fixed type description, or doing any polishing of it, if you just want people to publish h-cards *shrug*
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tantek___ Also skeptical of "polish"
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Zegnat Everything from <a class="h-card" href="https://vanderven.se/martijn/">Martijn</a> to the monster that actually exist on the page is a valid h-card. There is no forking or extending. One just happens to define a couple more properties.
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven
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Zegnat tantek___, even though I have the tendency to go a little theoretical on the spec issues, I do think we see eye to eye on the skepticism here! Haha
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AngeloGladding you'll make your judgement when you see it
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KartikPrabhu "people aren't things" woah there!
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Zegnat “/people page” ... I wouldn’t know what to put there :P
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KartikPrabhu what is people page?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "people page" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "people page is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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AngeloGladding so in response to your feedback Zegnat i'll only be listing photo/name/url of people i'm publicly following
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AngeloGladding so it's basically /following
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AngeloGladding thinks
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Zegnat That sounds like something that makes sense. That’s listing your relation (following) towards other people. Those people could easily be marked up with h-cards, with whatever information you want to put in. Though I would err on the side of keeping them minimal for data-correctness sake.
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AngeloGladding which is kinda sort what i'm building
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Zegnat Why is that a necessary component?
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Zegnat Rather I would say it should be up to users to publish lists of people if they want to. You may have following/followers. Or maybe you want to do what adactio does (did?) and publish a “bedroll”.
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Zegnat I can think of hardly any use-case for just publishing a list of “people”. Maybe some weird form of mass-discovery, but I would personally never publish something like that.
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AngeloGladding obligatory
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AngeloGladding what is bedroll
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Loqi bedroll is a blogroll of people that have stayed over at your house https://indieweb.org/bedroll
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Zegnat adactio still has his on his homepage :D
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AngeloGladding oversahring potential?
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AngeloGladding er? my last message disappeared
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AngeloGladding er?!
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Zegnat isn’t sure he knows the meaning behind “oversharing”
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Zegnat ;)
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AngeloGladding yeah twice now my message has been disappeared
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AngeloGladding weiiird
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AngeloGladding one more time...
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AngeloGladding oh i started with a slash
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AngeloGladding ...
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AngeloGladding sorry guys
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Zegnat IRC clients tend to not like that
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AngeloGladding /people is a feed like /notes and essentially reflects updates to my network
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AngeloGladding so obviously i'm ready to talk about privacy controls whenever anyone else is
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AngeloGladding thanks everytone
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Zegnat That sounds a lot like a feed of following posts. Not sure why that would need to be anything more than that. Then if I see a person on there that interests me I can go visit them. And they will only share as much details with me as they want to share with me. So still not seeing the real usecase behind some big people-post-type there ;)
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Zegnat Maybe I just need to see the mock-up of the concrete thing you are visualising. But I’d say: stay minimal, let the social network work itself out :D
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Zegnat Always happy to brainstorm more of course. Though for now: I am off to bed. Cheers
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AngeloGladding thanks Zegnat
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[schmarty] to echo what Zegnat said: it feels like number 2 from the /principles page applies: "🔍 Use & publish visible data for humans first, machines second. See also DRY."
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[schmarty] so: design a thing for a human to interact with it before starting in on any machine-to-machine plumbing.
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AngeloGladding https://dev.lahacker.net/people/JnitNi
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AngeloGladding there's the simplest possible example
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AngeloGladding https://dev.lahacker.net/people/JnitNi/versions/2
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Loqi Angelo
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AngeloGladding the use case would be "dating"
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AngeloGladding ignore the privacy issues, etc for the moment
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AngeloGladding how do i mark up the p-interested-in field?
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AngeloGladding from above the consensus seems to be p-canopy-interested-in
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[schmarty] AngeloGladding: apologies if you have explained this earlier. i skimmed the chat and couldn't find the answer: what is the consuming case? other running copies of canopy?
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AngeloGladding yes and/or a silo for privacy facilitation
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[schmarty] this might be irresponsible advice but i think if you're writing both the publish and the consume sides then ✨anything goes✨. using a vendor prefix sounds great.
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gRegorLove I think that's pretty accurate
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AngeloGladding "control" is lost at each stage
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AngeloGladding even interested-in is up for debate
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AngeloGladding i have to think a little more about it
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AngeloGladding but i just know there's going to be people who disagree with it somehow
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AngeloGladding *if people use it, lol*
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gRegorLove Have you looked at the options popular dating sites have for that and how they display it?
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AngeloGladding yup
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AngeloGladding not documented though
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AngeloGladding i can and will for this case
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AngeloGladding and any official canopy cases
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gRegorLove OKC has 20-some options for interested-in
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AngeloGladding yeah every dating site basically uses that as their hook
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AngeloGladding meh
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gRegorLove Is canopy going to let people search/filter by these properties?
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AngeloGladding of course
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AngeloGladding :)
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AngeloGladding whatever your crawler can get its grubby mitts on
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AngeloGladding an example being friends-of-friends[-of-friends] that you have some degree of private access to
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AngeloGladding *through your friends
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tantek___ did you search the microformats wiki for "interested-in"?
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AngeloGladding ah!
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AngeloGladding i must have
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AngeloGladding lol
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tantek___ feel free to add more research to it of what existing sites do!
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gRegorLove http://microformats.org/wiki/interested-in
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AngeloGladding i *thought* i limited myself to documented props but i started this process long enough ago
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AngeloGladding deeefinitely will flesh that page out
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tantek___ AngeloGladding: You may also be interested-in http://tantek.com/2010/336/b1/dating-preferences-public-profiles-formats-federating
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Of Dating Preferences, Public Profiles, and Formats For Federating It All
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AngeloGladding :)
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tantek___ (maybe dated now - no pun intended - but likely still a few useful things there)
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AngeloGladding lol!
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AngeloGladding i'll check it out
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gRegorLove hehe "nerdy dating site like OKCupid"
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gRegorLove Shows how cultural acceptance of online dating has changed since 2010
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AngeloGladding i actually have no experience *using* dating sites
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AngeloGladding dark UI patterns on those sites are just...
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AngeloGladding so awful
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gRegorLove I've used OKC over the last year or so. It's been good for the most part.
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[jgmac1106] Here is on my follow pot types would like to to do this to my /following page but I am using a plugin for that, gonna go to just a straight html file
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/7122-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] I just added Metawriting by @deannamascle to the #literacies section of my following page at https://jgregorymcverry.com/following #BeYourOwnSocialNetwork
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AngeloGladding jgmac1106 do you subscribe to any of their feeds?
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[jgmac1106] all of them,
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[jgmac1106] long term I want a follow pot type micropub feature when I add someone to my microsub reader
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[jgmac1106] back to the building block logo idea from -meta, if we set up each building block page with links to webmention.io and then gave out the images using <img class="u-reply-of">we could get rough implementation numbers
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[jgmac1106] well follow pot type my be a very popular micropub client bust I meant follow post type
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AngeloGladding what is microsub
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Loqi Microsub provides a standardized way for reader apps to interact with feeds https://indieweb.org/microsub
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