#dev 2018-11-26

2018-11-26 UTC
eli_oat[m], plindner[m], myfreeweb, zoglesby, grantcodes[m], eli_oat, jjuran, [jgmac1106] and [Sim] joined the channel
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[Sim] Hey guys, whenever you are free (I don’t want to interrupt) can I jump in and ask for some more eyes to identify a problem with my self-hosted site? :/
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[Sim] I’ve been going insane for the past month
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[jgmac1106] here is my podcast template site: https://podcastsitetemplate.glitch.me/ or https://github.com/jgmac1106/podcasttemplate
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jgmac1106 who is Sim?
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[Sim] Hi, I can link to a bio or LinkedIn? Tantek and Eddie guided me in implementing h-card and learn a little bit about it a few days ago :)
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jgmac1106 [sim] what is your url, but be warned I am quite the rookie, and can’t help with much
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[Sim] ^_^ thanks!
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[Sim] So I have https://simonesalis.com pointing at a Ghost instance on digital ocean. But it goes through cloudflare.
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[Sim] The weird thing: this is cloudflare’s analytics. Almost 2k queries/hr, most of them empty, most of them cached.
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[Sim] O threats found, most attacking countries blocked, strict firewall, changing protection level on cloudflare doesn’t make a difference, and so does placing rate limiting from same addresses.
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[Sim] All my other websites have regular numbers as per analytics. I even destroyed the original droplet and rebuilt the website from scratch. No difference...
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[Sim] (Idk if the screenshots I sent through Slack come through on IRC)
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jgmac1106 i don’t see the file links in irc but do see them in slack
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jgmac1106 but could be my client settings, either way your question way above my pay grade
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[Sim] :D
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[Sim] Thanks jgmac!Who shall I consult?
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[jgmac1106] People will scroll through. If someone can help they will
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the_hoomanist <3
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the_hoomanist (still me, from IRC)
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[jgmac1106] You can set up you chat-name and connect everything and then people will be able to find you url by asking..
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[jgmac1106] Who is jgmac1106?
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Loqi J. Gregory McVerry (Greg) is an educator trying to use the web to help engineer better teachers https://indieweb.org/User:Jgregorymcverry.com
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the_hoomanist Uh
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the_hoomanist Awesome I didn't know it. Thanks!
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the_hoomanist (that's what you typed earlier, not it makes sense)
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the_hoomanist *now
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[jgmac1106] What is chat-names?
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Loqi Chat names is a list of chat regulars sorted by nickname, with their website and usual timezone(s) https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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[jgmac1106] I do know Ghost is historically very hard for IndieWeb stuff.
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[jgmac1106] What is ghost?
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Loqi Ghost is an an open source blogging software project written in node.js, and also a hosted silo at https://ghost.org https://indieweb.org/Ghost
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the_hoomanist I just added h-entry and h-card to the template so far :/
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the_hoomanist who is the_hoomanist
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:Simonesalis.com
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the_hoomanist who is the_hoomanist
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:Simonesalis.com
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[jgmac1106] Did you add yourself to /chat-names? Loqi uses that
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[jgmac1106] Nvm I saw edit
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the_hoomanist Working on it while I work :)
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[eddie] !tell tantek Yes, I have been thinking about the follow people vs. feeds idea. I definitely think that's the right way to go. I created my first follow post (which was actually for a Mastodon user via Bridgy Fed). It worked well because I was able to do a u-follow-of with an h-card where the url of the h-card pointed to the Mastodon users profile.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] !tell tantek I think the part I'm stuck on is when I am following a person's feed that is not on their profile. I still want my follow post to be their h-card. But I think I also want to include the url of the feeds I am following. Marking them up as u-url is wrong because its not about identity, but rel=feed wouldn't be restricted to the h-card. I think we might need a proposed mf2 h-card property that denotes a feed url of some sort
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] Eddie these are good thoughts/questions and definitely worth capturing in that brainstorming section you started.
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[tantek] I have some how to ideas but let’s capture the use-cases you’ve come up with first (so they’re not biased by apparent solutions)
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Loqi [tantek]: [eddie] left you a message 27 minutes ago: Yes, I have been thinking about the follow people vs. feeds idea. I definitely think that's the right way to go. I created my first follow post (which was actually for a Mastodon user via Bridgy Fed). It worked well because I was able to do a u-follow-of with an h-card where the url of the h-card pointed to the Mastodon users profile.
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Loqi [tantek]: [eddie] left you a message 27 minutes ago: Yes, I have been thinking about the follow people vs. feeds idea. I definitely think that's the right way to go. I created my first follow post (which was actually for a Mastodon user via Bridgy Fed). It worked well because I was able to do a u-follow-of with an h-card where the url of the h-card pointed to the Mastodon users profile.
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Loqi [tantek]: [eddie] left you a message 24 minutes ago: I think the part I'm stuck on is when I am following a person's feed that is not on their profile. I still want my follow post to be their h-card. But I think I also want to include the url of the feeds I am following. Marking them up as u-url is wrong because its not about identity, but rel=feed wouldn't be restricted to the h-card. I think we might need a proposed mf2 h-card property that denotes a feed url of some sort
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Loqi [tantek]: [eddie] left you a message 24 minutes ago: I think the part I'm stuck on is when I am following a person's feed that is not on their profile. I still want my follow post to be their h-card. But I think I also want to include the url of the feeds I am following. Marking them up as u-url is wrong because its not about identity, but rel=feed wouldn't be restricted to the h-card. I think we might need a proposed mf2 h-card property that denotes a feed url of some sort
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[eddie] Sounds good, I'll add those thoughts to the wiki
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[eddie] This might be totally off base but I'm wondering about child h-feeds inside of an h-card. You could give u-uid and u-url to the hyperlink to the actual feeds your following
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[tantek] I think it’s unnecessary to separate feed URLS inside an h-card like that
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[tantek] In fact I think it’s undesirable. Better to “just” do feed discovery on all the URLs in their h-card one at a time, that allows for them to evolve the URLs over time as desired (no feed, be feed, primary feed among a few, several feeds etc)
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[eddie] I think if people have different type of feeds it's important to be able to clarify what "topics" or "areas of the site" you follow
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[eddie] Not for EVERY site
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[tantek] Re: following a feed that is not on their profile - capture that question / real world examples on the wiki and I’ll provide some theories and methodologies for handling it :)
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[eddie] I captured the question, I'll add some real world examples
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[tantek] I disagree with “it’s *important* to be able to ...” that. Maybe a nice to have advanced user case. Definitely not *important* - evidence: zero dominant social media silos bothered with that level of person vs feed complexity and they all did just fine
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[eddie] That is because they don't offer multiple levels
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[eddie] If they did I think many people would opt-in
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[eddie] evidence: people with websites often have multiple different feeds
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[eddie] :)
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[tantek] That’s my point, they don’t even bother with multiple levels - that alone is already an advanced nice to have - not important
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[eddie] I think the challenge is in a world where there ARE multiple levels, the social silos would tell you which levels you follow
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[tantek] Sure and treating such multiple feed sites by default to just their “primary “ feed is plenty good enough
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[eddie] and if the homepage doesn't have a feed, you do feed discovery to find the primary?
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[tantek] That’s my point. The rest is advanced less than 1% edge case stuff (even if it may see like a good % or folks in this channel)
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GWG [tantek]: That was my solution. I discarded all but one feed.
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[tantek] “Homepage has a feed” *is* feed discovery
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[eddie] But if homepage doesn't have a feed?
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[tantek] Then those are the examples we should document and analyze. My hypothesis is that there are multiple possible reasons why - and this multiple different valid approaches
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[eddie] I guess you use the rel=feed
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[tantek] *thus
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[eddie] My homepage doens't have a feed
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[tantek] again, it depends on the example
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[eddie] but I do rel=feed to what I consider as my "primary" social feed
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[tantek] It could be deliberate for design, or privacy, or a buggy CMS, or a buggy personal hand rolled site for example
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[tantek] Each of which may deserve different approaches as a consuming application
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[eddie] Interesting, that's a curious break down of various reasons
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[eddie] Mine is for design. I can definitely understand people doing it for privacy
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[eddie] and of course buggy stuff exists everywhere
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[tantek] That’s just the few I came up with off the top of my head. There are likely more reasons, again, to be illuminated by actual examples
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[eddie] Hmm okay, so for now. We just follow-of a person's h-card, assuming their h-card will help lead people to their feeds
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[tantek] If we consider “respectful software design” then we definitely should take into account possible privacy etc reasons
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[tantek] I think that’s a good start yes
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[eddie] So then if you "subscribe" to a new feed but you are already following the author of that feed, you would not create an additional follow post
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[tantek] Good question!
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[tantek] Likely worth some UX experiments first before worrying about which posts to create
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[tantek] Eg do you or would they want to be notified of each different feed (un)subscribing or possible muting?
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[eddie] True, I would not
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[eddie] some people might
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[tantek] Right in some scenarios no. But in others maybe
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[tantek] Eg knowing someone followed my Twitter, IG, and Flicker may be more interesting/informative than just they followed “me”
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[eddie] Would you consider those profiles or feeds?
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[tantek] Good question :)
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[eddie] I think that is more of a feed issue haha
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[tantek] Could you have a profile of profiles?
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[tantek] To some extent us IndieWeb folks do, with our site as our main profile and our rel=me links to silo profiles as sub-profiles, each of which may have one or more “feeds”
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[tantek] Eddie, also makes sense to follow a person / h-card with zero feeds. Because that’s equivalent to adding them to your address book
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[tantek] They might update their h-card info, and presumably your reader should poll/subscribe/update to the latest info eg their photo, perhaps physical address, phone number etc
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[tantek] Then if one day they add one or more feeds to their h-card / homepage that you’ve followed, your reader could auto-discover that, and auto-subscribe to their (primary) feed without even bugging you about it
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[eddie] Hmmm that’s really interesting. Family stuff popped up so I’ll be out for a bit but I’m gonna read this more fully later as I didn’t think about some of that stuff!!
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aaronpk If you look at actual real world cases where this happens people end up making multiple profiles essentially
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aaronpk plenty of examples of multiple Instagram accounts or multiple YouTube channels
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[eddie] That's a great use case. I created two twitters for a while. a personal and a professional
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[eddie] I have a https://eddiehinkle.com/work/ that is essentially a professional feed of sorts similar to how I used to treat my professional twitter
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[jgmac1106] My home page has a feed of my three most recent articles but my h-card on my homepage list all my feeds with rel=me as well
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Zegnat rel-me on feed URLs still feels wrong to me, unless those pages are also some sort of profile page
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[jgmac1106] I ded rel=feed and they are in my h-card so assumed rel=me is assumed
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[jgmac1106] Did*
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[Vincent] Would you have a h-card for a bot? And should they be defined different to a human?
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[jgmac1106] loqi deserves an h-card
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sknebel it has one
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sknebel on its homepage
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sknebel Kaja does too
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[Vincent] Loqi isn’t a bad example actually because he does lots of things. Unlike for example a bot that just posts links to Twitter, which could be substituted for a feed.
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[Vincent] I’m just thinking forward a bit here to following human versus “other”. So I know the feed might be subject to algorithms etc.
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sknebel not sure. humans can do all kinds of things with their feeds too
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[Vincent] yup I agree its a hard one to figure out
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[jgmac1106] don't let others dictate what you anthropomorphize h-card, there aren't any xfn rel valutes for bot or non-human, so many people have pages for their pets. Doe [aaronpk]'s cats have h-cards?
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[Vincent] oh pets is a good one, I hadn’t thought of that
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GWG swentel, thinking about location
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sknebel swentel: btw, did you test indigenous with micropub.rocks?
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swentel sknebel, no, always test with my own drupal endpoint and a local wordpress endpoint on my machine before releasing
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Loqi swentel: [eddie] left you a message 1 day, 16 hours ago: I feel like I remember reading something about you being able to show webmentions you received in Indigenous for Android using the ?q=source query if I remember correctly? Is that something you are doing now? or something you were thinking about
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sknebel swentel: ah, ok. was worried for a second micropub.rocks would have accidentially let the [0] thing pass
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GWG Started this... https://github.com/indieweb/micropub-extensions/issues/6
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Loqi [dshanske] #6 Query for Location/Venue
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[kevinmarks] Bear in mind that json has multiple ways of encoding unicode. I'd suggest using utf8 rather than escaped \U
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[kevinmarks] Similarly, use utf8 rather than &#x263A; type notation in html.
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[kevinmarks] (that was for the indigenous emoji conversation)
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[kevinmarks] Write yourself test cases for each way, but utf8 is really a good idea.
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Zegnat Who is indiewebcat?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:Indiewebcat.com
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Zegnat Does have an h-card. Whoever was asking... ^^^
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Zegnat What is JSON?
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Loqi JSON (abbreviation for JavaScript Object Notation) is a data serialization format often used by HTTP APIs, growing in popularity instead of XML, and also the canonical output of microformats2 parsers https://indieweb.org/JSON
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Zegnat Hmm, sadly even I-JSON doesn’t recommend against using unicode character escaping :(
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Zegnat I hoped it dd
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Zegnat *did
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[jgmac1106] My house has an h-card but I personify it on the house and it links to all my kids blogs
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jacky for those looking to harden their NGINX config: https://github.com/valentinxxx/nginxconfig.io
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Loqi [valentinxxx] nginxconfig.io: ⚙️ NGiИX config generator generator on steroids 💉
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swentel !tell [eddie] ?q=source query returns a list of my posts. Incoming webmentions are send to my notifications microsub channel.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Hi all
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snarfed hey GWG. figure out your bridgy + location bug yet?
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GWG snarfed, actually yes
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snarfed hey great!
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GWG Trying to decide if I should change it or ask you to
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GWG http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML. ...
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GWG It says that longitude and latitude are proposed properties of the h-entry
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GWG Which is how I implement a note or photo with location
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GWG snarfed, you note you only accept longitude or latitude in a nested h-geo or h-card
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GWG I use p-location for a textual description or a nested h-adr of the location
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snarfed GWG: https://indieweb.org/location#How
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snarfed says to look in location, adr, and geo first
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snarfed sorry if that caused trouble!
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snarfed bridgy/granary just use mf2util, which follows that algorithm
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GWG snarfed: Someone should probably update the Microformats wiki then
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snarfed sure! if it says lat/lon can only go in h-entry, and not in others like location, definitely! i don't have access. mind figuring out how to update it?
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GWG It doesn't say only
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GWG It says either
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GWG It is just easier for me to change my markup then your parsing
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sknebel the algorithm should still find the latitude/longitude from the h-entry
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GWG sknebel, I agree. So we can update the location page on the wiki
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sknebel ?
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sknebel the algorithm as written on that page
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sknebel already should find it
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sknebel let me check mf2util
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GWG I have a location, latitude and longitude property
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GWG I am using location for the textual description
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GWG I think I should change it
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sknebel GWG, do you have an example post for me?
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sknebel at first glance mf2util looks like it should find it correctly, but I'd like to try it with an example
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sknebel running code in my head only goes so far
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2018/11/06/2208/
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Loqi [David Shanske] On to New York via Dublin
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GWG This is a PESOS from OYS
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sknebel for me mf2util finds name, longitude, latitude?
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sknebel longitude "13.296096"
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sknebel name "TXL Airport, Berlin, Berlin, 13405, Germany"
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sknebel latitude "52.555429"
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GWG Then it is a Bridgy issue?
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GWG This isn't one of the ones I tried to cross post to Twitter though
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GWG Let's try a test
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GWG https://tiny.n9n.us/2018/11/26/5340/
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GWG From my test site
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GWG https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1543256536&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lySwsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiJGh0dHBzOi8vdGlueS5uOW4udXMvMjAxOC8xMS8yNi81MzQwLwwLEgdQdWJsaXNoGICAgICAgIAKDA
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GWG Think I need to fix the markup on my test site
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GWG It is picking up some other location
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sknebel the last seen in the sidebar
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GWG that last seen widget I built for chrisaldrich
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GWG Yes, but it does see a location
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GWG So, if I fix duplication and it still doesn't work, it's Bridgy
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snarfed technically mf2util, but yes
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sknebel no, mf2util sees it
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sknebel https://python.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftiny.n9n.us%2F2018%2F11%2F26%2F5340%2F&parser=lxml&util=true
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sknebel and https://python.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F2018%2F11%2F06%2F2208%2F&parser=lxml&util=true with the other post
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sknebel (or I misunderstood the problem)
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GWG snarfed, so if Bridgy sees it, what then?
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GWG I should open the issue
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snarfed GWG: not sure! yeah issue. sorry, can't work on it right now, but can look later
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snarfed sknebel: we'd also want to check that you're using the same mf2util version as bridgy
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sknebel snarfed: yep, but seems to be the case: the requirements.txt for the parser website, granary and bridgy all specify ==0.5.0
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sknebel granary seems to loose the name
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GWG snarfed, I am going to change my markup if I can regardless.
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GWG But it is still a possible issue
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GWG I will write up the issue when I get home from work, and test a markup change
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GWG To a nested geo
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GWG snarfed, at least I solved my other problems
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[tantek] catches up on the location markup discussion and is still not clear about what should be working and isn't
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snarfed GWG: aha. bridgy actually did find your lat/lon, in the bridgy log for the example publish attempt you posted here, and sent it to twitter
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snarfed (look at the end of that log)
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snarfed GWG: lots of caveats in the twitter API location handling: https://developer.twitter.com/en/docs/tweets/post-and-engage/api-reference/post-statuses-update#post-statuses-update
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snarfed two jump out at me. 1: have you enabled geolocation in your twitter account? it's off by default.
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snarfed 2. twitter's reverse geocoding from lat/long is best effort only. it may just not have found a good place to match to your lat/long.
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snarfed (i can add both of these to the bridgy docs)
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sknebel snarfed: "geo_enabled": false, from that log
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snarfed thanks sknebel! GWG that's why then
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sknebel might be worth surfacing somehow, e.g. as an icon next to the publish, if there was geo info but it couldn't be passed on?
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snarfed yup! or better, return an error
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[jgmac1106] So I finally figured out to make my media queries for nav on my template okayish.. Will keep hacking. I can cute and paste code for perfect grid area flexbox collapse menus...
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[jgmac1106] ... But doing it differently and trying to only use CSS I truly understand... Even if it leaves me broken and ugly
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snarfed blundin: out of curiosity, is your site maybe *always* serving compressed? instead of only when the client says it can handle it?
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Zegnat The real problem is, according to the HTTP spec, if a UA does not prefer any specific encoding, the server can pick. So it isn’t actually wrong to send gzip by default
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Zegnat Add to that that curl, by default, does not specify an accepted encoding at all, and you get into all sorts of edge cases that I didn’t even knew about existed
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Zegnat First time I found out about this last week: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/78#issuecomment-439884885
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Loqi [Zegnat] I’ve had another long look at how `rel` values are currently being extracted, together with/parallel to @sknebel. The PHP mf2 parser can actually parse the page without any problems. This may still not be 100% correct, but because Atom happens to u...
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Zegnat If a UA doesn’t explicitly request `Accept-Encoding: identity`, servers may respond with gzip. Curl (which is what basically all of the PHP tools use under the hood) doesn’t send that header, and also doesn’t default to decompressing gzip or DEFLATE
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Zegnat php-mf2 issue here: https://github.com/microformats/php-mf2/issues/208
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Loqi [Zegnat] #208 Support compression in fetch()
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Zegnat donpdonp, logs, if you don’t have access elsewhere: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-11-26#t1543264018880700
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Loqi [Zegnat] The real problem is, according to the HTTP spec, if a UA does not prefer any specific encoding, the server can pick. So it isn’t actually wrong to send gzip by default
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donpdonp its curious that curl doesnt *implement* that
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snarfed Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 57 karma in this channel over the last year (167 in all channels)
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snarfed ...not "technically" wrong to aggressively default to gzip, but generally unusual and incompatible and a bad idea. caveat webmaster.
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Zegnat curl is much more a bare http tool than people expect. It doesn’t send a default UA. It doesn’t send a default accepted encoding. It doesn’t send loads of things without you the user toggling it.
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Zegnat Most of the time it wont even do HTTP/2
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Zegnat Every time something like this happens I learn about yet another little flag that needs to be set, ha!
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Zegnat is actually a little disappointed he didn’t think to configure his webserver to only respond in gzip
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Zegnat But yeah, I am planning to file PRs for php-mf2, and probably p3k-http (e.g. XRay) at the latest by the end of this week.
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donpdonp blundin would have been tip'ed off sooner if http://xray.p3k.io//rels?url=https://brianlundin.com/ had a feature to say hey this isnt even html! its jibberish!
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donpdonp $ curl https://www.google.com | file -
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donpdonp /dev/stdin: HTML document, ISO-8859 text, with very long lines
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donpdonp $ curl -H "Accept-encoding: gzip" https://www.google.com | file -
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donpdonp /dev/stdin: gzip compressed data, max compression
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Zegnat I am not sure if it should. For rels, non-HTML URLs are accepted. E.g. a non-HTML page can still advertise authorisation endpoints and token endpoints.
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donpdonp what would a non-HTML page look like
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Zegnat AutoAuth actually could make use of that specifically to have a private photo being shared where the actual JPG file can only be accessed with a token. It would then require tools to be able to get the rel="token_endpoint" from the JPG HTTP headers
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Zegnat I should have said resource rather than HTML
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Loqi I agree
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Zegnat Although an Atom feed can have rel’s and isn’t HTML either.
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Zegnat (or rather than “page”, rather)
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donpdonp nod though in the xray case i think its assuming html, since its front page has input for a url or pasting html.
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donpdonp oh that and the respond content-type said its html :)
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Zegnat Yeah, I agree, but if you are specifically telling it to parse rels, that question becomes a little muddled ;)
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Zegnat Because a blob of gziped content may still contain rels in the HTTP headers
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[jgmac1106] how do parsers handles hashtags in posts? Are they ignored--just text or auto converted to p-category?
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Zegnat microformats parsers? just text
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[jgmac1106] Okay, can't do p-category value=$x for read, watch, listen posts... Unless I finish plugins for now jost doing #want #reading #read for personal purpose
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sknebel snarfed: btw, could we get an mf2py update going sometime in the next few weeks? I think enough stuff has accumulated
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gRegorLove jgmac1106, Known already supports tags doesn't it?
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[tantek] what is gzip
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gzip" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "gzip is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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snarfed sknebel: sure! i can actually add you to pypi so you can do it yourself if you want
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snarfed (i'm not the official mf2py maintainer, it's technically currently unowned :( )
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snarfed [jgmac1106]: re hashtags, you may be interested in the background discussions in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/478 and https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/604
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Loqi [cweiske] #478 Automatically create twitter hashtags from tags
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sknebel snarfed: I should probably get set up for pypi too, true. (don't even have an account there yet. will get one and ping you)
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snarfed cool thx
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sknebel although I prefer the feeling of having PRs reviewed before publishing them, so if you could take a look at them it'd be appreciated
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snarfed oh sure! add me to them as a reviewer
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sknebel ok, will do
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[jgmac1106] If you do a featured image but use CSS to make it a background img how would you add u-featured? Use inline styling?
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[tantek] If an image has meaning in the content, which a featured image does, you must not use CSS to display it
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[tantek] you can use z-index to move an image closer to the "background" if that's the effect you're looking for
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kisik21 https://fireburn.ru/note/1543270513/
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Loqi [Vika] I’m trying to embed a link to my full h-card into my posts as a p-author property. Tips on how to do it are welcome. #indieweb
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snarfed kisik21: lots of discussion on that in https://indieweb.org/h-card#Issues
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kisik21 snarfed: looked at the algorithm. Maybe mark up my author as <a href="https://fireburn.ru/" class="u-author">Vika</a> and not use h-card class at all?
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snarfed kisik21: maybe! try it with a few different webmention receivers and see
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gRegorLove or indiewebify.me
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[tantek] pretty sure there are consuming applications that will handle the parsed results from something like <a href="https://fireburn.ru/" class="u-author h-card">Vika</a>
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kisik21 snarfed, [tantek]: aaronpk's site handled just u-author and showed my pretty anime avatar in the facepile
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kisik21 This means I got it somewhat right
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sknebel what you have now works
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kisik21 yes~
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sknebel I made a tool that matches a page to the algorithm: https://sturdy-backbone.glitch.me/test?url=https://fireburn.ru/note/1543270513/
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gRegorLove kisik21++
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Loqi kisik21 has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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kisik21 sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 32 karma in this channel over the last year (88 in all channels)
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kisik21 that's an awesome tool!
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myfreeweb sknebel++ wow nice
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Loqi sknebel has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (89 in all channels)
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kisik21 quick question: is newbase60 Unixtime shorter enough than unixtime to be used as a permalink in Twitter?
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kisik21 you saw my default slugs for notes... is newbase60 gonna help make them shorter?
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[tantek] a lot shorter
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kisik21 is there a python implementation of newbase60 somewhere?
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[tantek] pretty sure there is!
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[schmarty] what are permashortlinks?
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Loqi A permashortlink (abbreviated PSL) is a URL using a short-domain that expands to a permalink; on the IndieWeb, PSLs use personal short domains to expand to the same person's personal domain, thus minimizing the fragility often associated with shortlinks https://indieweb.org/permashortlinks
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kisik21 [tantek]: you actually linked to it in your newbase60 post
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[tantek] kisik21: http://tantek.com/w/NewBase60#Python
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[schmarty] permashortlink << NewBase60
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Loqi ok, I added "[[NewBase60]]" to the "See Also" section of /permashortlink https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=54236&oldid=49822
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[schmarty] NewBase60 << [http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402946/NewBase60#AdditionalImplementations Implementations]
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Loqi ok, I added "[http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402946/NewBase60#AdditionalImplementations Implementations]" to the "See Also" section of /NewBase60 https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=54237&oldid=51464
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snarfed kisik21: you don't need permashortlinks for twitter, it doesn't care how many characters are in a URL. all URLs count for the same number of chars (23 iirc)
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kisik21 But shorter link is nicer link.
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kisik21 also MUCH easier for me to type.
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tantek what is URL design?
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Loqi URL design is the practice of deliberately designing URLs, in particular, permalinks, typically for a better UX for everyone who creates, reads, and shares content https://indieweb.org/URL_design
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kisik21 yes, exactly this!
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kisik21 My notes don't use named slugs usually, but posts do
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snarfed you generally want to copy and paste URLs, not type them, to reduce the chance of errors. plus twitter renders URLs nicely, removing scheme and eliding after a certain length.
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snarfed regardless, if you really want short URLs that are different from your permalinks - and maybe on a different domain, which can increases confusion - feel free! beauty of the indieweb is you get to do what you want :P
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jacky lol
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tantek snarfed, IMO the "eliding after a certain length" is a clear reason to design for shorter URLs, so they *don't* get elided
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tantek otherwise you kinda have no idea what kind of bad nonsense is floating on the end of a URL
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snarfed eh most PSL implementations i've seen (including yours!) generally don't have human-readable content in them, except for maybe the domain. so i'm skeptical that they're any better than elided normal URLs.
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snarfed domain, which is the trust anchor, is generally always visible in either case
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kisik21 snarfed: I wanted to grab a domain "uru.ru" because it sounds very cute, but it's already taken. Would make a nice sideblog for cute things or an url shortener.
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kisik21 Domain hacks are always nice...
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tantek non-elided URLs are better for the simple reason of transparency. you have no idea if someone is trolling by putting obnoxious / maybe very offensive text into the elided portion of a slug
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snarfed kisik21: not really if they're a different domain than your main one, which can cause confusion
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snarfed (i'm all for PSLs for offline use cases! i'm just skeptical for most/all *online* use cases.)
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tantek and especially in the current US political climate, I would expect bots to do this on Twitter
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snarfed hah. i'd love to see a citation where that causes actual harm
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kisik21 That's why I want to make a sideblog there if I ever get this domain
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snarfed i definitely get the concern. just seems a bit hypothetical
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myfreeweb kisik21: looks like you don't have links to notes from the home page.. oh wait there are, their text is just the link emoji, i can see that in view source. but can't see them on the page.. oops firefox/fontconfig decided to use a broken emoji font. so my problem :D but i wouldn't recommend any link to be just one emoji
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tantek snarfed, a database dump of your CMS with very ugly URLs
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tantek ugly as in ugly text meaning (not the hex hash nonsense that Google apps love)
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jacky what does it mean for a URI to be ugly?
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kisik21 myfreeweb: It looks fairly OK on my machine in Chrome...
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jacky like non-semantic?
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snarfed your straw man was harm from actual trolling. if URLs just aren't pretty, that's not actual harm, or really an argument for PSLs at all imho
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tantek jacky, no think much much worse, like something the fringes of hate politics might say
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snarfed (i do see the deliberate trolling concern! just curious if it's ever actually happened.)
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jacky hmm
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tantek snarfed, rule 34 of sorts
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snarfed ?
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kisik21 myfreeweb: would it be better if it showed "Permalink" when hovering over emoji?
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tantek if I see one, I'll try to document it
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snarfed great!
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tantek though the very documentation of something offensive (e.g. antisemitic text in the slug) is itself problematic
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snarfed the different (and sometimes unfamiliar) domain problem in PSLs, on the other hand, is actually real
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myfreeweb kisik21: no, I couldn't hover, the <a> was zero pixels wide i.e. not visible at all. i'd suggest making the post date another permalink
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tantek snarfed, the unfamiliar domain aspect is orthogonal
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tantek no one is arguing domain, I think we're all discussing the path
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tantek kisik21's original question was about the unix time in their path
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kisik21 myfreeweb: ok, one minute
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kisik21 tantek: you can use female pronouns for me, by the way
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snarfed very true. i'm not addressing unix time in URLs, i'm arguing against PSLs, a bit. you're right that they're different points. :P
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myfreeweb (and my problem was adding "Noto Color Emoji" in fontconfig, which is not the right kind of emoji font for firefox)
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tantek snarfed though I have generally switched to agreeing that re-using a known domain is better than a slightly shorter domain, hence my permashortlinks have for a while used my main domain plus shortpath
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snarfed good point. i'm more against PSLs on different domains than on the same domain
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snarfed anyway. vive la difference!
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myfreeweb lol i keep thinking "pumpkin spice latte" when i see "PSL"
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[kevinmarks] Catching up: newbase60 in python is in the. Indieweb repo: https://github.com/indieweb/newBase60py
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tantek kisik21 thanks! didn't want to assume on the internet and hadn't looked it up :)
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Loqi [indieweb] newBase60py: Python implementation of http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402946/NewBase60
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kisik21 tantek: should I make my pronouns somewhat more obvious in my h-card maybe?
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[kevinmarks] Alao, svgshare.com publishes webmention link rels on svg and png files so you can webmention the images
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kisik21 oops, that's more of a conversation for another channel
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[kevinmarks] If you want to test that.
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tantek kisik21 it's a good question. right now I think we have to all check h-cards manually for that. wondering if there would be a way to indicate for Loqi
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[kevinmarks] Atom rels are trickier as there is a prescription for which ones to use
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myfreeweb kisik21: heh try adding them like <span class="p-x-pronoun-nominative">she</span>/<span class="p-x-pronoun-oblique">her</span>, my site should show that in the reply contexts
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kisik21 myfreeweb: also some people use u-pronoun with a link to Wiktionary
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kisik21 specifically Zegnat wrote about it: https://wiki.zegnat.net/microformats/pronoun
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[tantek] so Loqi does do messaging where he refers to people by pronoun (I'll tell him/her/them when I see them ...)
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[tantek] so perhaps we should include that specific pronoun in chat-names?
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[tantek] taking it to -> meta
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[tantek] snarfed, yeah I'm pretty convinced that same-domain PSLs are generally better. There has to be a strong advantage to the shortening
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snarfed yup, and those advantages generally all seem to be offline these days
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[schmarty] finally documented my /permashortlink scheme on the wiki. it is wild that i spent so much time thinking about this when i started created my new site.
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[tantek] schmarty++ yes I can relate! I definitely spent a *bunch* of time thinking about (short) URL design before coding up Falcon
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Loqi schmarty has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (63 in all channels)
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[schmarty] ditto for time spent trying to find a short domain!
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GWG snarfed, sknebel: Thanks for figuring that out.
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[schmarty] i do get some use out of it, so it doesn't feel like wasted time. but it does feel like too much time was spend for the value. 😂
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tantek much better than not enough time being spent on URL design (e.g. see any Google "app")
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[schmarty] agreed!