#dev 2018-12-16

2018-12-16 UTC
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@jgmac1106 Update on Sending Webmention Badges from Wikimedia #openbadges: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/16/update-on-sending-webmention-badges-from-wikimedia-openbadges (twitter.com/_/status/1074118245408563204)
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[eddie] Hmm known doesn’t seem to be following the Authorship algorithm
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[eddie] https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/16/update-on-sending-webmention-badges-from-wikimedia-openbadges my luke is shown as “Web User”
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[eddie] Like*
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[jgmac1106] I was just about to say that
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[eddie] I checked xray and it found it
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[jgmac1106] Why are you blogging on Luke'sa ccount?
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[eddie] Lol typo
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[eddie] Luke was supposed to be like
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[jgmac1106] ha ha
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[eddie] My phone autocorrected because I type Luke a lot
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[jgmac1106] I thought the "my Luke" was sweet
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[eddie] Lol! 😁
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[eddie] My post has u-author with the url pointing to my homepage, and my h-Card on the homepage
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[jgmac1106] it should grab your h-card..does everyone else's
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[eddie] So it seems like Known doesn’t parse an h-Card from an external url
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[jgmac1106] .aahhh I think those rules newer than Known
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[eddie] I don’t think that rule is that new is it? Follow the url of u-author and grab the h-Card?
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[jgmac1106] I wouldn't know
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[eddie] Maybe but that seems pretty simple 🤔 well I guess to GitHub I go
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[jgmac1106] ...not sure WordPress would do that, be worth testing
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[jgmac1106] send something to any post on https"//jgregorymcverry.com
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[jgmac1106] oops
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[jgmac1106] super ecited that I am getting closer on the webmention badge...maybe it doesn't matter that the u-photo on a comment doesn't display the way I linked the img url back to the baddge file...with the webmention as proof below...and this is done from the wiki..
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[jgmac1106] well....manually sending the webmention
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[eddie] That is awesome how close you are getting!
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[eddie] Also sent a like to https://jgregorymcverry.com/test-3/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] test
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[eddie] :crossed_fingers:hopefully my author is found
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[eddie] I think that badge image should show on other sites
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[eddie] Maybe that’s a known issue maybe they don’t accept photo replies?
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aaronpk this has some potential for use by readers! https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/12/background-fetch
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat noted best practice suggests not putting an image in a reply post... Wonder if plugin written with hard rule
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[jgmac1106] Will miss that about WordPress. "I want to do X on my website" Ohh there are 37 plugins that do that
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[jgmac1106] ... Granted it is an ebb and flow... A binge and purge plugin diet
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GWG That is best practice?
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GWG Good to know
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GWG We need a best practice list somewhere
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[jgmac1106] I may have misunderstood... Not the sharpest crayon...
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[jgmac1106] Not in the reply post @gwg in content of the reply
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[jgmac1106] @gwg and [pfefferle] are on point [eddie] that worked
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[jgmac1106] file an issue on the Known repo
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[jgmac1106] [eddie] one issue I need to think about is third party endorsements. What if indieweb.org wanted to endorse a badge issued by eddidehinkle.com there is no xfn for a relationship... Could an endorsement by a syndicated note?
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[jgmac1106] I need it to be so there is two way verification between endorser and issuer
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[eddie] Hmmm, so eddiehinkle.com posts a badge
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[eddie] To jgregorymcverry.com
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[eddie] And we want indieweb to endorse the badge I have created
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[eddie] If I don’t necessarily have access to indieweb.org, it wouldn’t be syndication
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[tantek] awards a badge right? (rather than posts a badge)
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[eddie] Correct
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[eddie] Maybe something like a repost?
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[tantek] I'm still confused by the "endorse a badge" verbage/action
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[tantek] is that like +1ing a badge?
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[tantek] or disputing it?
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[eddie] +1
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[eddie] They are essentially providing their authority to say the badge is legitimate
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[eddie] It’s tough neither liking nor reposting is correct but I feel like it should be something like that
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[eddie] tantek, what do you think?
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[tantek] I dislike it TBH
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[tantek] the fact that there's a permalink is sufficient to "prove" that A awarded a badge to B
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[tantek] whether you treat A with any authority is a different question
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[tantek] and frankly not resolved by any kind of "endorsement"
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[tantek] because you can just get a bunch of buddies to endorse
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[tantek] or worse, a bunch of trolls to disendorse
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[tantek] so I think the "endorse" action is not very well thought through nor actually solving a real problem / use-case
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[tantek] if you have another party with more authority, it ought to actually award the badge, rather than "endorse" someone else's
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[tantek] and if the other party does not have more authority, what's the point of having them "endorse"?
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[eddie] Fair question. Looking forward to hearing more about it jgmac1106 😁
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[jgmac1106] Yeah makes sense. And there is p-org in an h-card in for my university
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mblaney I think that endorsement pattern could be simplified: eddiehinkle.com issues a badge for jgregorymcverry.com, then all that's required for endorsement by indieweb.org is that eddiehinkle.com is listed as an issuer on indieweb.org, ie chain of trust.
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mblaney I was thinking something like that might work for indiepay.me, so when you log in and try to collect a badge you need to pick someone to issue it for you. So then I was trying to work out where to get the issuers list from...
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[relapse] I feel like here is where I mention that some badge providers are moving to Blockchain for authoritative proof of issuer, but I left by asbestos suit at the office.
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Zegnat Re photo property within content property, best to ask aaronpk. He may even have something written up on why it was making photo posts harder to parse and handle in readerd
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Zegnat s/readerd/readers/
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[kevinmarks] I do like the idea of HTML templates, but I end up writing templates with conditionals and iterators and includes a lot in practice.
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[kevinmarks] I like that jinja2 and nunjucks are almost compatible (though the embedded conditionals are python and js respectively)
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Zegnat I like PHP and dislike that people forget it does templating just give :D
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Zegnat s/give/fine/
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Zegnat needs to switch from phone to laptop
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[kevinmarks] I end up writing html in PHP using echo() inside loops.
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[kevinmarks] can abuse templates in any language
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Zegnat I end up writing <? foreach(): ?> inside my html.
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Zegnat Short opening tags and colon syntax are a thing in PHP, because it is a templating system just like twig etc.
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Zegnat People just tend to forget it and drag in extra templating engines instead.
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[kevinmarks] But you need to put the $variables inside the <? to get them evaluated,
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Zegnat Yes. Same as with most templating systems I know in html.
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Zegnat <?=$title?> vs e.g. twig's {{title}}. Plain PHP is only 2 characters more
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sknebel Zegnat: devils advocate: you are ignoring escaping here
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Zegnat sknebel, true, templating engines that escape by default will win that fight
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Zegnat <?=$title?> is actually {{title|raw}}, I guess
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sknebel If I remember right twig doesn't escape by default, but you can turn it on with one statement for the entire doc
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Zegnat For people looking at “plain” PHP foor templating, http://platesphp.com/ might be interesting :)
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[jgmac1106] [relapse] @mblaney the ledger and trusted issuer is interesting. Yeah Colin been following badges from the get go....think webmention badges takes the overly complicated 2.0 spec and gets it to two permalinks
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat would that be a good PHP 101 lesson..
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Zegnat [jgmac1106], that depends completely on what sort of PHP you are trying to teach, haha
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Zegnat But showing people that you can start with an HTML file and then inline some PHP as if it were template tags can be valuable to some
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[jgmac1106] I mean for me.. I can build the way I want HTML to look (template) can build the HTML forms to collect the data.... I need to learn the PHP steps in between
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[jgmac1106] ... Be some tine before I can dedicate time but I should spend time learning some language beyond javascript... That I usually use with forms
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[jgmac1106] ... Or ai build forms and templates and say here @zegnat finish this.... Cool with that approach too... Way more efficient
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Zegnat Ah. I am not sure PHP short tags mixed in with HTML will help you with that usecase at all
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[jgmac1106] Thx... Debating a crash course in something over break... If I finish my book... PHP, node.js, or Ruby... with express goal of build form, take data, render HTML page
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[jgmac1106] Not even sure I need the storage if an HTML page gets created
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[jgmac1106] And get @zegnat to do it works in every use case I have discovered to date
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Zegnat Well, these days Zegnat does have an actual job :P
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[jgmac1106] Yeah... Really been screwing with my productivity
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] @mblaney going to add your thoughts to #brainstorming session
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[relapse] [jgmac1106] Reducing the trust/ ledger spec two permalinks makes it much more sensible.
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Zegnat If the issuer is good for its word, you wouldn’t need a second party at all, imho. I agree with tantek there. The use I can see for having some type of ledger is incase the original issuer permalink goes down and you still want the badge to be verifiable. Then you would want to check a secondary trusted party
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GWG Morning
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Loqi morning!
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Zegnat Good morning GWG! :D
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GWG Zegnat, up to anything interesting?
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Zegnat Looking into signle signon solutions
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GWG I found out that my Location plugin fills a non-Indieweb need
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Zegnat Not surprising
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GWG More specifically, the simple weather widget that shows the current temperature and weather icon. I just threw that in when adding weather to posts.
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[jgmac1106] Background on where the endorsement idea came from, I am agreeing with all just needed to think through it https://er.educause.edu/articles/2017/2/endorsement-2-taking-open-badges-and-ecredentials-to-the-next-level
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[jgmac1106] But have enough to summarize on page later, thx all
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[kevinmarks] You can do form and results in a single file with php easily enough, true.
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Zegnat Is there a tldr for that article, [jgmac1106]? ;)
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[jgmac1106] You get a game designer badge from your school, EA sports can endorse that badge... Or some third party accreditation board
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[jgmac1106] In the article they use a health care licensing issue.. Points others raise will be enough when Open Badges folks say "but we have endorsements"
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[jgmac1106] (skipping over there isn't one single badge consuming use case out there)
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Zegnat Sounds like the simple first implementation could just be people liking/upvoting the issuance permalink in some way. Then if someone goes and checks the badge they can see EA having liked the badge issuance to me.
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[jgmac1106] u-like-of as endorsement...perfect
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Zegnat That would be experimental though. I am not sure every like of an issuance would be endorsement. Some might just be “I like that Greg awarded this badge to Martijn, even though I am not able to judge it myself”
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[jgmac1106] Wouldn't endorse each issuance, just like the badge page
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[jgmac1106] May play with it or just ignore it
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Zegnat The badge page is the issuance though, right? Or do you send the webmention from somewhere else?
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Zegnat I’ll wait for your writeup before commenting more :)
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[jgmac1106] https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/16/liked-endorsement-of-indieweborgs-toolbuilder-badge-d5d7fde9d0
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Endorsement of IndieWeb.org's toolbuilder-badge
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[jgmac1106] If only likes weren't broken on my blog
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[jgmac1106] Each Badge has a page, and each issuance is a page, only badge page would need endorsement... Publish like post add Endorsed by section to page
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Zegnat Likes broken on Known?
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[jgmac1106] It's a community plugin... Known takes the like/bookmark debate to some metaphysical discussion at a code level
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[jgmac1106] Just need to fix the link so the title goes to source
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[jgmac1106] so much for trying to demo a like as endorsement post....neither blog works..Known is closest, will use markup from there
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Zegnat thought Known had full like support
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Zegnat surprising
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[jgmac1106] https://github.com/kylewm/KnownReactions it did then it became a bookmark
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Loqi [kylewm] KnownReactions: Indie likes and reposts plugin for Known
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[eddie] Hmm it's strange, [cleverdevil] is able to postlikes
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[jgmac1106] It works, needs smallest tweak. Just need to the h-cite to link
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[jgmac1106] it ends up liking itself: https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fquickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com%2F2018%2F12%2F16%2Fliked-endorsement-of-indieweborgs-toolbuilder-badge-d5d7fde9d0
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Endorsement of IndieWeb.org's toolbuilder-badge
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[jgmac1106] [cleverdevil] doesn't use likes
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[jgmac1106] ....also missing an h-cite on Known and I like the wrong link .grrrrrrr bigger issue than I thought
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[jgmac1106] didn't see it in the drop wn of your content choices
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[cleverdevil] I definitely post Likes 😀
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[jgmac1106] down*
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[jgmac1106] Do you keep copies of your plugins in your Known repo?
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[cleverdevil] https://cleverdevil.io/content/bookmarkedpages/
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[jgmac1106] those are bookmarks
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[cleverdevil] Known bundles Likes in with Bookmarks
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[cleverdevil] But you can do both.
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[cleverdevil] They should definitely be unbundled, but they also definitely work.
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[jgmac1106] this was the attempt to unbundle it and add repost
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[jgmac1106] https://github.com/kylewm/KnownReactions/tree/master/templates/default/entity/IdnoPlugins/Reactions/Like
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[jgmac1106] what I am using....but the h-cite and source url are missing
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[cleverdevil] Ah. Gotcha.
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[cleverdevil] Yeah I stick to the standard Known way.
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[jgmac1106] not me...will play, want my bookmarks and my likes separate, my library and my memories different
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[jgmac1106] a bookmark to me is a noun a like a verb
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GWG Hi cleverdevil
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Zegnat Some day we’ll have you building your own cms, [jgmac1106] ;)
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[jgmac1106] I am so tempted....tp just do that now...getting so freaking annoyed. I just want to do <a class="u-like-of">...why is it this complicated to write one line of HTML
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[jgmac1106] if I only did microformats, didn't have to worry about a publishing interface and somehow magically learned how to receive and display comments I could
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[cleverdevil] Hey GWG 👋
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[cleverdevil] I definitely wish they were different too, [jgmac1106]. I think there is already a ticket open on Known to do this.
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[jgmac1106] nevemind...site license for perch runway jumped to $250 a website.....no way, no how, that isn's for norms at that pricepoint, could have sworn it was 50
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GWG Reading about how to own my checkins
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[jgmac1106] maybe I can get away with this...https://grabaperch.com/
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[jgmac1106] like this @gwg https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/content/locations/
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GWG I am sitting in a food court, waiting for the person who I gave a lift to here, reading APIs for place search
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GWG I am having trouble with the terms of service of every API
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[jgmac1106] no micropub endpoint on Perch, that's out....back to just trying to fix a like....and wondering why you need 17 files to inject six lines of html
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GWG I feel like I need a lawyer to determine if I am violating the spirit of the terms of use
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[jgmac1106] no you ask for forgiveness when they shut you down like last time
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GWG jgmac1106, the people at the open Nominatim service never did respond by the way
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GWG I asked for clarification on how I had violated it so I could comply
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GWG But try reading the Google Maps or Foursquare terms of use and they are not covering my usage per se
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[jgmac1106] Can ypu use open street map like Known?
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[jgmac1106] you*
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GWG Does OSM have a POI search?
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[jgmac1106] meaning find a museum near me?
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[jgmac1106] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features i think using tags
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sknebel yeah, POIs are just objects marked as something
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[jgmac1106] OSM is way to go for simple location lookup....and maybe drop the name simple...because it seems like anything but
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sknebel e.g. for a supermarket, the building outline in the map data is tagged shop=supermarket
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sknebel (or where the data is less good, there's a point on the map tagged such)
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sknebel of course the problem is still that you need an API endpoint for the data of some kind, either by someone who doesn't mind the traffic or hosting it in the community somehow
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@jgmac1106 Haven't even finished my @wordpress migration and already thinking maybe @grabaperch way to go (to be fair I have always weighed this decision). Has webmention support, and I am building out how I'd want my site look on @glitch https://jgmac1106homepage… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/16/havent-even-finished-my-wordpress-migration-and (twitter.com/_/status/1074343569870217216)
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@jgmac1106 Is anyone else hanging #IndieWeb style powered by @grabaperch? Looks like no native micropub support, and would need some love to connect to microsub readers but I just want a box where I type HTML and it becomes a post. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/gbfj9) (twitter.com/_/status/1074344115578507265)
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sknebel hm, seems like amenity + shop tags are ~ 15-20 million objects
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I worry I wouldn't have the skill, been laying out my website in plain HTML here: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me micropub/microsub support a must..I can make templates for all the post types. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/zKbqH) (twitter.com/_/status/1074359072504336386)
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@vincentlistens ✅ Micropub ✅ Send webmentions ✅ Receive webmentions ✅ Media endpoint Just syndication to go now before I’m doing all the basics! #indieweb #webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1074450054927302657)