#Zegnat[metbril], probably late to the party, but if you look at https://tokens.indieauth.com/ is has an example token verification that shows the client_id you would get back
#Zegnatdid wonder about sending a User-Agent string from micropub clients
#ZegnatThe problem is with the spoofability, and if someone starts sending it I worry people will start to depend on it
#Zegnat(depend on it for the wrong thing, that is)
jgmac1106, [Vincent], benwerd, swentel, swentie, [kevinmarks] and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
eli_oat, dougbeal|mb1, nloadholtes, benwerd, [tantek], jgmac1106, [jgmac1106], barpthewire, snarfed and [schmarty] joined the channel
#[schmarty]got thinking this morning about a combo micropub endpoint and client that pulls together lots of disparate clients to get new things done.
#[schmarty]e.g. i like posting notes, articles, and photos with quill, but the event poster isn't what i want. also i'd like to use kapowski more for reaction GIF posts.
[eddie] joined the channel
#[eddie]I don't quite understand why the endpoint and client should be combined?
#[schmarty]oh yeah - so you don't have to sign in to each client manually
#[schmarty]you sign into this meta-client that keeps track of your micropub endpoint and token
#[schmarty]and the meta-client lives on the web, so it can set up new micropub endpoints for you, and handle its own auth.
#[schmarty]an example use would be you're viewing a post you like in your browser. you hit a bookmarklet that takes you to the meta-client's reply page. there are options on there for what kind of reply, including GIF. clicking GIF takes you to Kapowski, and you're already logged in and have the reply URL populated.
#[schmarty]in the background, the meta-client had set up an endpoint and identity for you, done the indieauth dance for Kapowski, and forwarded you there already logged in (might be challenging!)
#[schmarty]when you post, Kapowski actually submits it back to the meta-client's micropub endpoint, which then forwards it on to your site's micropub endpoint.
#ZegnatLogging you in through a forward is hard. Usually that will include some sort of token exchange so Kapowski (and all other clients) needs special support for that
#[schmarty]i haven't walked through it step by step but i feel like the meta-client could make this pretty transparent to the user with a handful of redirects.
#ZegnatThe forwarder idea is really nice, as it means the user will have to issue less tokens so the trust is kept small.
#[schmarty]e.g. the meta-client sets up a different "me" page for you for each client, including its own auth and token endpoints, as well as a micropub endpoint..
#ZegnatHonestly all the meta endpoint needs to be able to do is open Kapowski in such a way that it tells Kaposki to submit to endpoint A and use token X. You don’t actually need to do IndieAuth
#ZegnatWhere A will be hosted by the meta endpoint, and X could be a one-time token issued by the meta client
#[schmarty]Zegnat: true! but Kapowski already implements IndieAuth, so in theory this would require no changes to the "upstream" micropub client.
#[schmarty]but that's a great point - quill supports passing some kind of session info directly (including micropub endpoint and token), so perhaps that could be standardized.
[tantek] joined the channel
#ZegnatDon’t get me wrong, you can also definitely make an IndieAuth endpoint that involves no user interaction (I think I have code for that floating somewhere). I don’t know what would be more natural to standardise on
#[eddie]ohhh I gotcha schmarty! That makes more sense now
#[schmarty]from a UX/UI perspective it will probably be a weird experience and feel brittle, but i think it could make a pretty great browser extension or feature for Together or Monocle.
nloadholtes_ joined the channel
#Zegnatclient.example.com?me=urltodiscoverendpoints vs client.example.com?mpendpoint=url&token=xxx
#ZegnatAre the two basic ways I could immediately think of for making it work
#ZegnatThe first case could have the client skip the first step of asking for your URL, and immediately send you to your indieauth endpoint. (And in the case of the meta-client, it can provide an endpoint that does not require user interaction at all.)
#Zegnatfeels like he should get petermolnar in on this
nloadholtes joined the channel
#[eddie]I haven't read up on it much, but it does seem closer to IndieWeb than Mastodon, so I think it is something to read up more on to be able to better compare contrast with IndieWeb tech
#[eddie]I've saved a couple articles on it in my reader to try to get a better understanding of it
#ZegnatLike IndieWeb they seem to be going the building-blocks route of having different specs for different things
benwerd joined the channel
#ZegnatBut they are very RDF heavy, which I have not often been able to wrap my head around
#[eddie]I don't understand a lot of it, but I'm vaguely familiar because of when I was starting to build Mastodon/ActivityPub into my website before offloading to Bridgy Fe
#[jgmac1106]I tried to capture some history here: http://bookmarks.jgregorymcverry.com/ though need to ask [tantek] and [kevinmarks] where all the old w3c listservs are archived, has to be a trasure trove of history
#Zegnat[eddie]: if any of those posts explain why I should wrap my Person in a PersonalProfileDocument, let me know ;)
#[jgmac1106]ha ha, but a post explaining h-card vs a PersonalProfileDocument would be a wonderful post so someone technical like zegnat or [eddie] to write
#[eddie]Zegnat Sounds good, I'll definitely keep an eye out for that! 😆
#[jgmac1106]especially in terms of size but I think zegnat you demonstarted that petermolnar was curling hte incorrect url?
#[eddie]I would be interested to see the size different of Zegnat's h-card vs the same data as a Solid Person 😆
#ZegnatI was just going to see if I could on-the-fly transform my h-card into turtle and then claim to have one of the biggest Solid WebIDs... But that means learning what stuff would look like in RDF
#[jgmac1106]<link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link><link>stuff</link> I think is how you do it
#LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "extra level of nesting" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "extra level of nesting is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#ZegnatMost Solid URLs I can find always link straight to the Person object (e.g. #i or #card behind the links). So why not have the Person as the top level object?
#[eddie]I think it's so that you can have multiple objects at the same url
#[eddie]which is understandable, but I think there should be a way to have a url just have a default
#ZegnatAs I understand Turtle you can always have as many objects within one file as you want. It is just that they set documentURL = PersonalProfileDocument and documentURL#someid = Person
#[eddie]I tend to shy away from that, but some people find it useful
#[eddie]Yeah, seems like you're further along than me!
#ZegnatTurtle, WebID, FOAF, I got all the specs open [eddie] ;)
#[eddie]how mf2 has simple h-cards and based on the structure it can make assumptions
#[tantek]this is a common antipattern in CS architectures, adding extra layers just to solve edge cases, extra layers which burden everyone, and thus hurt the common case
#ZegnatThe problem is I cannot find the edge case documented anywhere either, [tantek] :(
#[tantek]Zegnat, that lack of documentation for the extraneous layers in things like RDF was one of the motivations behind the culture of documentation we have at microformats and indieweb
#ZegnatBut of course I may just be misunderstanding RDF documents. Always a posibility
#[tantek]if you can't show your work, you don't have a proof
eli_oat joined the channel
#[tantek]it's likely lost in some mailing list somewhere
#ZegnatWondering if there is an RDF or Solid IRC channel somewhere. Will have to have a look when I get home.
#ZegnatWas just doing some leisure spec reading on the train :P
benwerd joined the channel
#[eddie]The one really nice thing is because Solid PODs do seem very similar to the IndieWeb's approach (of separating UI and data storage), if Solid takes off enough to have some decent UIs, we can totally build some bridges to be able to use their UIs for our stuff.
#[eddie]If they had some really nice readers, you just build a Microsub server / POD conversion layer and we have more readers available
#ZegnatHmm. Alright. So the Person object *is* me, and because an HTTP URL is not a person but a web document, they decided 2 URLs would be required. One for the person, and one for the document.
#LoqiGitter is a silo chat provider used by some open-source projects and often linked to from README files on GitHub https://indieweb.org/Gitter
#[eddie]Ohhhh sure enough, HTTP Range 14 IS what's going on with the WebID stuff
#[jgmac1106]poor Bob, Alice hated the look of his webpage but she liked the looks of him so she needs two links for Bob??...tell Alice Bib will design his page any way he wants
#[jgmac1106]may use this paragraph in lesson in how not to write for understanding: FOAF describes the world using simple ideas inspired by the Web. In FOAF descriptions, there are only various kinds of things and links, which we call properties. The types of the things we talk about in FOAF are called classes. FOAF is therefore defined as a dictionary of terms, each of which is either a class or a property. Other projects alongside FOAF provide other s
#[jgmac1106]and properties, many of which are linked with those defined in FOAF.
#[jgmac1106]"there are only various kinds of things"---is basically saying there is everything. I know this isn'
#[jgmac1106]'t #dev but love the ambiguity in that sentence
[schmarty], dougbeal|imac and jgmac1106 joined the channel
#[tantek][jgmac1106] it's definitely good to keep in mind for how *not* write abstract definitions
[davidmead] joined the channel
#[davidmead]zegnat - i just went through (I think) the inrupt/solid sign up myself. It’s a little “all over the shop” as we Brits say.
#[davidmead]I still don’t know if I’ve actually logged in or signed up as there are buttons to do both after completing it
#[tantek]davidmead this is why Web Sign-in sticks with a single button
#[davidmead]tantek yeah. some of this feels like an already solved problem
#[tantek]davidmead, pretty much all of it is. It's generally NIH on top of beating the RDF horse.
#[tantek]this is what happens when you 1 ignore the broader set of work in an area, 2 don't bother to document your own work
#[davidmead]reminds me a little of early online banking - fancy homepage, but when you try to do something in your account it’s all early 90's HTML and mystery meat nav & labels placed by backend devs
#[davidmead]wondering if they’re looking for a UX person 😉
#[tantek]we can likely all use incrementally better UX 🙂
#ZegnatHmm. So I could allow conneg on vanderven.se/martijn/ and if you want turtle I could offer a 303 redirect to vanderven.se/martijn/allthewaydown.ttl which will be a PersonalProfileDocument. That way Solid tools *should* accept https://vanderven.se/martijn/ as my WebID?
#[jgmac1106]@zegnat check in with [benwerd] I know his goal for Known was to support both JSON-LD and mf2 but the JSON-LD may not have gone much past what is required Single Sign On for LTI
#ZegnatIt’ll depend on what standards Known wanted to support. I am going to dive into this RDF stuff a little more first
[davidmead] joined the channel
#[davidmead]thought i had solved OYG not posting my photos into Known by disabling a couple of plugins (Bit.ly link shortener and Chrome). When I did that I got a photo to post from the OYG dashboard. Re-enabled the Bit.ly plugin and it failed, but disabling that again didn’t let me post anymore
#LoqiProgressive Web App (PWA) is a web site that a client can progressively enhance into a standalone app that's comparable with a native app https://indieweb.org/PWA
#[tantek]I have heard from many folks (ahem benwerd ahem) that that's the key use-case for them, same reason they listen to podcasts on commutes / subway etc.
#[tantek]pretty sure you could get benwerd to switch readers if you added offline reading support
#aaronpki feel like most of the time i open my reader is when i also want to interact with the posts
#aaronpkso i would need to also buffer the favs/replies created while offline and push them up later
#[tantek]sure, you should be able to like/respond to posts while offline as well 🙂