#dev 2019-01-31
2019-01-31 UTC
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[schmarty] northeast corridor *mostly* has coverage. certainly one carrier or another is present for almost all of it.
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[jgmac1106] but never Amtrak wifi, you have to use your own hotspot, especially if you need VPN, verbotten on Amtrak
# [schmarty] yeah amtrak wifi is terribel
# [jgmac1106] the CT shoreline...because some genius thought let's use this coastline for train tracks gets spotty but yeah DC>Boston good coverage..does get overwhelmed in peak travel hours
# [jgmac1106] but in terms of auto saving, must have
# [jgmac1106] not same as offline, just how I always thought about it
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[tantek] some webdev commentary: https://twitter.com/t/status/1090791596348588032
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@t #Caltrain commute #SF-MV-SF still had bad connectivity even on #mifi #hotspot cell #tethering. Good reminder of #webdev needs for min page sizes & requests, progressive enhancement that works if/when CSS/JS doesn't load. Not #js;dr QT [@t] js;dr = JavaScript required; Didn’t Read. Pages that are empty without JS: dead to history (archive-org), ... http://tantek.com/t4a41 (twitter.com/_/status/1090791596348588032)
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petermolnar !tell Zegnat I read my name, I can't bother to decrypt the RDF conversation, what do I need to be involved in?
# petermolnar ah, so my quick scan was correct
# petermolnar a part of me whishes I could just point domain.com/me at a vcard, and have it done :(
# petermolnar as in to replace all of them
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Zegnat Reading rhiaro’s PhD thesis actually helped with the PersonalProfileDocument thing. It describes a spectrum of Representation for profiles: http://dr.amy.gy/chapter3#profiles-taxonomy. Once I pictured the spectrum it was easy to see the specific choices I made on my IndieWeb site versus the choices WebID made.
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[kevinmarks] Security by ennui
# [jgmac1106] ouch
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# [jgmac1106] tantek would this be an example of something you were thinking for a web development page: https://medium.engineering/microservice-architecture-at-medium-9c33805eb74f (looking for any documentation as to why Medium just cut off their APIs unannounced)
# petermolnar is anyone using the last.fm api? is it working? my previous api key and my freshly registered ones both give me 403 for http://ws.audioscrobbler.com/2.0/?method=user.getrecenttracks
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[Vincent] I’m using a last.fm app right now, scrobbling to my account fine
# [kevinmarks] I don't know who to prod as Jamie and Ben have both left.
# [jgmac1106] no worries on my part, just a weird way for them to handle the issue....so many devs asking or complaining and no real updates...time to redo the house odds on the site-death pools
# [jgmac1106] ...need to figure out how long it takes someone to burn through 130 million dollars
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# petermolnar I found a way to nicely make my site with relative urls. Soon after that I also realized this potentially break images in readers.
# [schmarty] petermolnar: if you have "base" defined in your pages, readers should be able to figure out the relative URLs? i forget how that works until i break something.
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[davidmead] [jgmac1106] Happy to help. Give me $130M and I’ll let you know when I’ve spent it all 😜
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# [kevinmarks] Relative urls in feeds are tricky
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@hardfire ↩️ My blog already accepts webmentions. Slowly this will also accept it. One step at a time :D (twitter.com/_/status/1091010133797359616)
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# [jgmac1106] why is this a p-author and not a u-author is it because the author's name is in plain text? <p>Published by <a class="p-author h-card" href="http://example.com">W. Developer</a>
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# [schmarty] it's for consuming code that might expect author to be a string containing the author's name.
# [jgmac1106] okay thanks was curious
# [schmarty] iirc, whenever there's a nested mf2 element (like an h-card) there is also a "value". what's in "value" is determined by the prefix you used. so p-* would make it plain text, u-* would be a url, etc.
# [schmarty] oops slack formatting got me
# [jgmac1106] I got it stuck in my head you use a u any time you are using a link
# [jgmac1106] understand difference now thanks
# [schmarty] it's a hint to whatever is consuming it. consumers that understand the nested h-card will use that, so you're helping consumers that don't expect a nested element.
# [jgmac1106] I think I did this correct: http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/helloworld.html
# [jgmac1106] decided to issue a batch of badges as an h-feed
# [schmarty] https://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=http%3A%2F%2Fedu407.jgregorymcverry.com%2Fbadges%2Fhelloworld.html looks like an empty h-feed
# [schmarty] the entries are not inside the h-feed
# [jgmac1106] I put the h-feed on the <main> and every h-entry is inside
# [schmarty] they should all be inside the <main> element
# [schmarty] the main element is closed before the div class="h-entry" list begins.
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# [schmarty] oh, likely because of some extra closing tags that break the html
# [jgmac1106] story of my life...spend my dys searching for errant or missing closing tags aas I copy and paste my way to greatness
# [schmarty] firefox shows them in red when i view source
# [schmarty] one sec and i'll post a screenshot
# [jgmac1106] extra closing div on line 29
# [schmarty] a closing </p> on line 28
# [schmarty] a closing </h4> on line 18
# [schmarty] nevermind on the screenshot, i think that might be it
# [jgmac1106] schmarty++
# [jgmac1106] thanks for the help
# [jgmac1106] now to figure out a way to force webmentions and brigy for wordpress.com,
# [schmarty] looks like the badges have an extra </span> also
# [jgmac1106] grrrr
# [schmarty] err wait, they look reasonable.
# [schmarty] (but the mf2 parse shows the closing </span> in content without the opening span)
# [schmarty] what's the story with p-note inside of e-content? i don't think note is typically considered part of h-entry.
# [jgmac1106] yeah folks told me to start using experimental for criteria and evidence but I didn't have time to figure that out
# [jgmac1106] I am using p-note as my way to force a parsing of criteria
# [jgmac1106] being able to show people parsed criteria and a link to evidence essential to win hearts and minds
# [schmarty] if you want your parsing code to recognize it as criteria, you could mark it as p-criteria
# [schmarty] (p-x-criteria if you want it to be marked experimental, then your consuming code would look for x-criteria)
# [schmarty] also omg your span markup is fine i was just misreading the firefox JSON view.
# [jgmac1106] thx, that was it
# [schmarty] looks like your in-reply-to is directly to their homepages, rather than to a specific post?
# [schmarty] also every badge has a u-url that points to http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/jgregorymcverry.com
# [jgmac1106] yeah need to change criteria to say set up a blog or switch the url
# [schmarty] if i understood your desired set up, these badges should be in-reply-to a specific post on their blogs that refer back to the criteria?
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# [jgmac1106] probably switch each url...well if that is what the criteria would call far yes, but if I set criteria to say "Have a homepage" no
# [schmarty] ah, i thought the badges were usually in reply to a post making a claim, rather than directly to the evidence.
# [jgmac1106] they usually will be, but I am doing this first one as I don't want to have my students doing anythign more this week
# [schmarty] w.r.t. u-url for each badge entry, if this page is the permalink for all of these badges, you can put an id="some-unique-id" on each <div class="h-entry">, then use that for the u-url for the badge.
# [jgmac1106] just getting up a website, installing webmentions, and learning how to add microformats to source code enough for week one
# [jgmac1106] oooh that is great
# [jgmac1106] this is the ifrst time I thought about doing an h-feed of a particular badge
# [schmarty] (currently you have <a href="jgregorymcverry.com" class="u-url"> , which is a broken relative URL.)
# [schmarty] so e.g. <div class="h-entry" id="some-student-domain.example.com">
# [schmarty] ... and your markup around the issue date would change to something like <a class="u-url" href="http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/helloworld.html#some-student-domain.example.com"> ...
# [schmarty] actually just <a class="u-url" href="#some-student-domain.example.com"> ... might be enough, since a consumer should understand that you're referring to the current page.
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# [jgmac1106] should have read what your wrote first but how is this: http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/helloworld.html
# [schmarty] before digging into the mf2 i should point out that your author photo URL is 404: https://www.southernct.edu/academics/schools/education/departments/elementaryeducation/faculty/images/SCSU_17_GregMcVarry-117fs.jpg
# [jgmac1106] found mistakes already, be hard
# [jgmac1106] i guess we finally launched our new website yesterday
# [jgmac1106] nothing like breaking every link in the world without redirects
# [schmarty] woo!
# [jgmac1106] www2 that is their solution
# [schmarty] the new u-urls for each badge seems off.
# [schmarty] if you remove the "http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/" from the link, it means "look at the current page and parse it for an element with id 'Emily'", which i think is what you want.
# [jgmac1106] yeah missed a closing tag again
# [jgmac1106] fixed
# [schmarty] and the id="Emily" needs to go on the <div class="h-entry">
# [jgmac1106] okay that makes more sense, what I was doing felt wrong
# [schmarty] the goal is to have the h-entry's u-url indicate the permalink to itself
# [schmarty] the p-x-criteria change looks good. i see it as "x-criteria" in the parsed MF2
# [jgmac1106] I think we did...I think this is how I we issue bulk badges...granted now need to think about having students building their portfolio for displaying but I probably won't do that entry level
# [jgmac1106] ...and I am going to leave the mismatched criteria and evidence for teaching purposes about assessment
# [jgmac1106] thx schmarty
# [schmarty] still a bug in the h-entry u-url
# [schmarty] <a class="u-url" href="http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/#Emily" > doesn't point to a real URL
# [schmarty] it should be You earned the <a class="u-url" href="#Emily" >
# [jgmac1106] thx
# [jgmac1106] of course it should
# [schmarty] unrelated to MF2: lines 17-18 are a little goofed. the Beginning Readers link is 404 and there's a random </h4> closing tag.
# [jgmac1106] all set
# [jgmac1106] now tofigure out some hacky way to send them the webmention
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@brianjesse i guess it's 11 years now that i've been micro-blogging on this one web site that doesn't connect to other micro-blog web sites for some reason! #MyTwitterAnniversary #indieweb #openmicroblogging #ostatus #pubsubhubbub #webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1091025304703778816)
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@jgmac1106 Continuing my experiments with webmention badges. Decided to try bulk issuing as an h-feed http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/badges/helloworld.html #Openbadges I love being able to issue badges using nothing but HTML. #literacies #DoOO h/t to @schmarty for help with microformats and… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/01/31/continuing-my-experiments-with-webmention-badges-decided (twitter.com/_/status/1091025593175552003)
# [jgmac1106] webmention was my trigger
# [jgmac1106] same with brianjesse
# [jgmac1106] mine is probably in microformats channel as well as that is Loqi's trigger there
# [jgmac1106] If I win the Mozilla Responsible Computer Science award all of this badge stuff will be wrapped up in a nice micropub client with a ledger
# [schmarty] winces at "ledger"
# [schmarty] i have become so trained to associate ledger with blockchain. yikes! i need to let that go, haha.
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ledger" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "ledger is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[grantcodes] [schmarty] on the meta micropub client sounds kinda similar to how some "personal dashboards" are set up, there's one I use that I think is called organizr, basically just a page with a bunch of tabs and iframes
# [grantcodes] You'd have to log into all the clients separately, but as a quick MVP you could see if it's something worth building out fully
# [schmarty] [grantcodes] i think i should start a wiki page under my user page about it. with an intermediate micropub endpoint you can munge requests in ways that a given client might not support.
# [schmarty] e.g. automatically adding tags/categories, processing content for links or people tags. or even wrapping a micropub client that doesn't support edits!
# [jgmac1106] .ahh no one has finished Bridgy installation yet so I can't check
# [schmarty] they'll need to set up bridgy and homepage ("exotic"?) mentions
# [schmarty] since these are aimed at their homepage
# [jgmac1106] yeah, these won't matter really I wanted a test template, once the washer machine stops I am going to do a little video about the criteria and evidence mismatch in the badge and the task and criteria mismatch here: http://edu407.jgregorymcverry.com/moduleone.html, will then show them how I edit the page and badge in the video
# [jgmac1106] the tech will go over their head but its about hitting them over the head with evaluating criteria and evidence
# [jgmac1106] those will link
# [jgmac1106] sxhmarty I will statrt calling it a badgeroll instead of a ledger just for you
# [schmarty] a ledger is fine. yesterday's discussion on httpRange-14 and others have me wary of coining terms today. 😩
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@pauljacobson It’s such a relief when I manage to send a webmention from my blog as a reply to a comment. This stuff is probably so much easier to do than I think it is, and I’m missing something pretty obvious. (twitter.com/_/status/1091039763908431872)
# @jgmac1106 ↩️ If I remember correctly you have Independent Publisher theme, no microformats2, no mf2 stream plugin correct? IP has minor bugs may mess up webmentions. We are working on them. SemPress still only theme in http://wp.org that… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/01/31/pauljacobson-if-i-remember-correctly-you-have (twitter.com/_/status/1091041672451055618)
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# @jgmac1106 ↩️ Those are webmentions https://indieweb.org/Webmention your my posts show up as tweets and your replies on Twitter come back to my posts as comments. webmentions link networks built on the #IndieWeb together. Allows you to #BeYourOwnSocialNetwork (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/2znDi) (twitter.com/_/status/1091042830678671367)
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@eldelacajita ↩️ @jgmac1106 Awesome, I didn't know Webmention. I was just looking into it as you replied. Thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/1091044197090631680)
# [schmarty] like you want a #tag in a post on your site to link to the Twitter page for that tag, but only if that post is syndicated to Twitter?
# [jgmac1106] eddie and arronpk working on a nickname cache to do this
# snarfed lots of detailed discussion years ago on this in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/527
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# snarfed my high level response as bridgy maintainer was/is https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb
# snarfed [schmarty]: you may like https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/478
# [schmarty] snarfed: i was only trying to restate jacky's question to make sure i understood it. (i didn't!)
# [schmarty] IndieWealth
# @jgmac1106 ↩️ if you do not mind installing a theme from GitHub https://david.shanske has an updated version of Independent Publisher ready to go. It may fix many of your webmention woes (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/2gIUos) (twitter.com/_/status/1091047235314434066)
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[eddie] But jacky essentially, you use the person's URL on your website then when your website is syndicating, it should check to see if your nickname cache contains a twitter handle for the person and if so use https://brid.gy/about#silo-content to use the correct handle on twitter but nowhere else
# @pauljacobson ↩️ I'm using Independent Publisher 2, along with a variety of IndieWeb plugins such as MF2 Feed, Webmention (incl for comments), Post Kinds (I lost the custom fields at some point). Webmentions generally work, although I forget to @ mention people in replies. (twitter.com/_/status/1091047559718752256)
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@danicotillas ↩️ All right, thinking about what @jgmac1106 says about webmention that catch my attention. At the beginning I couldn't see much difference thinking about RSS or federated systems but this is another story, far more interesting (twitter.com/_/status/1091049996252790786)
# snarfed whoa that page even has mf1. https://en.gravatar.com/site/implement/profiles/
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[cleverdevil] Note: gravatar does some tracking stuff that some people may not be comfortable with.
# [cleverdevil] That said, it doesn't really impact using it as a NNC of sorts.
# [cleverdevil] I'd still love to see this implemented as an API for any CMS to hook into, though.
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# [jgmac1106] [cleverdevil] this is why I want the IndieWeb directory to be like an optin phone book
# [jgmac1106] a shared nickname cache of h-cards where I can decide what networks and my name
# [cleverdevil] Why opt-in?
# [jgmac1106] because I like being politew
# [cleverdevil] If you have a public h-card, I see no reason not to include it in the directory 🙂
# [cleverdevil] Its on a public website!
# [cleverdevil] Don't get me wrong, I like being polite too 🙂
# [cleverdevil] FWIW, my vision of how it would work is that you use a special mention format based upon domain name, and then the nickname cache as a service translates that into appropriate mentions across all known platforms for that h-card.
# [jgmac1106] speaking of which I need to add the indieweb ring code back on my site so I get listed in the directory
# [cleverdevil] So, if you at-mention "@cleverdevil.io" then you'd get back a JSON structure with a mapping to Twitter, Micro.blog, etc.
# [jgmac1106] I agree. Exactly what I want
# [cleverdevil] It'd also need to have a search feature where you could query based upon a variety of sources and have it auto-complete somehow.
# [cleverdevil] I'd love to make this my IndieWeb Summit project!
# [cleverdevil] (And to collaborate with anyone else interested).
# [cleverdevil] Yeah, you're probably right.
# [jgmac1106] but [snarfed] there couldn't be one grand directory so CMS didn't have to store all the data worry about img cache as people changed photos?
# [jgmac1106] you mean WordPress?
# [cleverdevil] Hmm... doesn't gravatar work off only email addresses though?
# [cleverdevil] Not domain names?
# [jgmac1106] but they way [grantcodes] and [schmarty] set up their directories and it has the h-card plus the correct user name for each silo
# [cleverdevil] I am pretty sure you can't do that, [snarfed]. You need to have a valid email address that can be verified.
# [jgmac1106] I am also thinking I am in a Wᴀʀʀᴇɴ Eʟʟɪs fan club, we have an IndieWeb ring, this includes the directory with APIs that other member of the rings can query, so thus the opt-in
# [cleverdevil] That's true.
# [cleverdevil] Still, friction.
# [cleverdevil] But, for POC, likely well good enough.
# [cleverdevil] Perfect is the enemy of good 😉
# [cleverdevil] Indeed GWG++ a brilliant idea 🙂
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# @jgmac1106 @grabaperch do you have any quick getting started and maybe a tutorial for adding webmentions that we could add to #IndieWeb Tutorial page here: https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started#Tutorials (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/43TmY) (twitter.com/_/status/1091060525746802690)
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# [grantcodes] Nickname cache as a service was pretty close to my idea for the indieweb directory
# [eddie] I think there is another HUGE missing component in this conversation in regards to the purpose of a nickname cache, which is making it easier to @mention people than having to memorize domains. To say gravatar could be used as a nickname cache I think really undersells the potential value to people. I think the IndieWeb directories already have potentially more info and utility than gravatar would have for us, it uses the info FROM people's webs
# [schmarty] aaronpk: it's not gravatar's avatar data that is currently of interest. there's MF1 profile data there.
# [schmarty] you've got a full profile there: https://en.gravatar.com/profiles/aaronpk
# [schmarty] anyway that was the reason for the excitement. there's a bunch o' data here and that existing plumbing could be used to test some UX experiments.
# [schmarty] actually this kind of profile lookup seems to only work by gravatar username
# [schmarty] (there seems to be no search so you'd have to hit the username exactly)
# [schmarty] also lol oh no my username is so old https://en.gravatar.com/calqlater
# [schmarty] [eddie]: it's centralized!
# [grantcodes] If you want a big set of data to start with [snarfed] has done the hard work with indiemap
# [schmarty] none of those datasets are indexed on a short username that you can @
# [grantcodes] Yes, but then deleted everyone for privacy
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# [schmarty] the win of finding this out about gravatar is that you could right now build a tool that will try to lookup an @name and get back meaningful info to use when tagging them in a post and updating that content for a POSSE version of that post on a silo where they have an account.
# [grantcodes] I don't know what you store [schmarty] but my directory could be searched by username on any major silo, just not built a full API for it
# [schmarty] [eddie] how will you ever?
# [cleverdevil] The more I think about it, the less excited about gravatar I get haha.
# [schmarty] [grantcodes] i store full representative h-card. but, yeah, i have no index.
# [cleverdevil] Not sure how much time/money it'd actually save vs. rolling something quick and dirty from scratch.
# [schmarty] lol it is all abstract.
# [schmarty] you have a gravatar username (it's likely your wordpress.com username)
# [schmarty] aaronpk's was easy to guess because he is consistent
# [schmarty] mine was not because i have not been consistent
# [cleverdevil] FWIW, I don't have [cleverdevil] on gravatar, as it was already taken.
# [grantcodes] Problem with hcards and silo urls is potential different urls / domains, eg if someone links to fb.me you have to figure out that is Facebook etc
# [schmarty] but even as we "learn" people's @names, it's not always gonna stay consistent. e.g. as cleverdevil said: he missed out on his usual username for gravatar. also, snarfed is schnarfed on twitter. inconsistentcies are gonna happen.
# [schmarty] inconsistencies are gonna plague *any* nicknames cache.
# [schmarty] i guess my point here is that building out the UX of actually using a nicknames cache in a CMS or other posting UI is the more interesting part of this
# [cleverdevil] I tend to agree that we think in terms of the domain as the canonical identity, and everything else is an alias to that.
# [cleverdevil] UX is def the struggle point.
# [cleverdevil] That said, at least for me right now, just using domain names would be totally adequate for my usage.
# [schmarty] and resolving domains or names to the mappings you need is just plumbing and data.
# [grantcodes] Has anyone else tried the @ mentions in the postrchild extension? Not perfect by any means but, think it's the only public micropub client with mentions
# [schmarty] snarfed: oh i missed that before.
# [schmarty] OH DANG, IRC to slack translation was munging your messages, snarfed 😂
# [schmarty] me@[domain] was becoming me@@domain
# [schmarty] which was making no sense.
# [cleverdevil] Heh
# [cleverdevil] Unfortunately, gravatar doesn't seem to support micro.blog, or many other services.
# [cleverdevil] I suppose you could add those as "Websites"?
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KartikPrabhu ^ yes! "don't make perfect the enemy of good" or some quote of that sort
# [cleverdevil] It can be a pain in the ass, depending on the user's email provider.
# [cleverdevil] Or it can cost them money.
# [cleverdevil] ^^^
# [cleverdevil] I tend to think a naive implementation like that is best.
# [cleverdevil] (True... but cache can be done in the CMS or Micropub client)
# [cleverdevil] FWIW, I have a basic basic version of this already...
# [cleverdevil] Its currently disabledf.
# [cleverdevil] That's it, though.
# [cleverdevil] Basically, fetches the provided URL, uses representative-h-card.php to identify the h-card, parses it, and then does some regex to identify different identities and how to mention them.
# [cleverdevil] I'll re-enable it... sec.
# [cleverdevil] I eventually wanted to roll this into a Known plugin that would automatically do all of this rewriting of mentions depending on syndication targets, but I sort of ran out of steam.
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# [cleverdevil] (This is much, much simpler than the gravatar approach, tbh)
# [cleverdevil] Go for it!
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# [jgmac1106] [cleverdevil] https://github.com/idno/known/issues/1992 found that
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