#dev 2019-02-08

2019-02-08 UTC
[jgmac1106], [tantek], [cleverdevil] and [eddie] joined the channel
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[eddie]
[cleverdevil] I’ve also been thinking about stories but have delayed because of chicken egg. I feel like stories really needs reader support but you don’t have reader support without something to follow so.... haha
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I am in the camp of "just support videos"
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[cleverdevil]
Apple Clips does a great job of generating easily shareable videos that are essentially the same as you would find in a "story" elsewhere.
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[eddie]
I think images is also helpful
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[eddie]
Sometimes you want to snap a photo and add some text ala Snapchat
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[cleverdevil]
You can embed images into a Clips "story"
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[cleverdevil]
With text.
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[eddie]
Ohhh hmm interesting
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[cleverdevil]
So much easier to deliver.
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[eddie]
Have you looked at /story? We have some random brainstorming and stuff there
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[eddie]
More than just video though
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[cleverdevil]
I have not!
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[cleverdevil]
What is story?
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Loqi
A story is a singular (one per profile) time stream collection post, that consists of ephemeral photo and video posts that are shown in sequence one at a time and disappear from the collection 24 hours after being added https://indieweb.org/story
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[jgmac1106]
That definition way too influenced by social media expectations IMO. Why just one per profile? Why must it disappear? To me a story is a collection of media arranged purposefully arranged for meaning with a start and a finish that the author or audience may control.
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[jgmac1106]
Minus one arranged
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[jgmac1106]
A story is a series of mixed media formats within one post that are purposefully arranged with a clear start and finish and a linear or non linear navigation either the author or audience controls.
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[tantek]
kevinmarks++
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Loqi
kevinmarks has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (34 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106]
tantek shifting to dev for a little as I read up on xAPI and then compared it to what chrisaldrich and idea in my summer classes it just reaffirmed to me importance of keeping metadata as small as possible, but I could see parsing feeds of my classes using, read, write, listen, reply and h-review of artifacts with webmention badges to build a cool dashboard
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[jgmac1106]
I did not idea*
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[jgmac1106]
and then reading up on xAPI how this already maps onto AS2 and much of the work is done with social readers to create a classroom powered by the web. Just made me smile as I feel like we are all on the right path
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aaronpk
[cleverdevil]: what alternative to "just support video" are you thinking?
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aaronpk
[jgmac1106]: ignore the name, we're just calling it that because that's what the big social media sites are calling it. The point is we are trying to figure out exactly what about the way those work is appealing and what we can draw from. Not starting with some prototypical definition of the word "story".
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[cleverdevil]
Was considering something in Known where you could “build” stories with a combination of uploading short video clips, pictures, etc., along with text. Re-ordering and then displaying nicely with a fancy client side JS thing.
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[cleverdevil]
I’m 98% certain I don’t want to do that now 😀
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[cleverdevil]
Clips is really perfect from a UX standpoint for creating stories and they export cleanly as high quality videos that I could upload via Micropub.
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[cleverdevil]
Much easier.
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aaronpk
[cleverdevil]: have you seen that kind of thing elsewhere? Sounds neat but also complicated
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aaronpk
I guess that's kind of what Flash is lololol
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[eddie]
[cleverdevil] I am not sure I’m ready to abandon photos, but that definitely sounds intense adding text and stuff on top. I think my ideal is a photo or video and then you can use apps (regular or Micropub) to bake anything you want into a photo or video and then upload that
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[eddie]
I have also though having a link and a button might be interesting if you want to link out to something else (like the Zuck.js tool in the Story brainstorming section)
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[eddie]
But I probably wouldn’t want to try to communicate text outside of alt text with a photo or video
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[cleverdevil]
I would effectively be poorly re-creating a much less convenient version of Clips. Heh.
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[cleverdevil]
The downside is the viewing experience wouldn’t be as slick.
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aaronpk
Instagram stories are a little more than just photos and videos now, since you can do things like include a link in the "swipe up" action, and also include polls or other reactions as overlays
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[eddie]
Ohhh interesting
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[cleverdevil]
Yeah I’m not really interested in any of that I don’t think.
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[eddie]
I do like the link part. I don’t know about polls and stuff 🤷‍♂️
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aaronpk
[cleverdevil]: I'm not super familiar with Clips but I'd be curious to see anything you've published from it
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[cleverdevil]
I haven’t really published anything from it yet, but it’s a really amazingly good iOS app.
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[cleverdevil]
It has labels, speech to text, emoji, awesome AR “scenes”, text overlays, “posters,” etc.
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[cleverdevil]
A very strong video production app made for building short, Instagram stories style videos.
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[cleverdevil]
Competing with that client side interface isn’t worth it, IMO. Sort of like building out a replacement for the Swarm app.
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[cleverdevil]
I’ve got a pull request open on Known that I’m waiting on, but once (if?) it’s merged, I’ll start posting some Clips stories to see how I like it 😀
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aaronpk
Just tried a few things in Clips and it seems like the desired result is it outputs a video file
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[jgmac1106]
[cleverdevil] ping Marcus on GitHub or Twitter more than Ben in terms of PRs, Ben been working more behind the scenes on core stuff
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[cleverdevil]
Yup that’s precisely right [aaronpk].
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[cleverdevil]
[jgmac1106] Marcus has already replied and I don’t think we wants to merge it. Leaving it up to Ben.
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[jgmac1106]
ohh then I leave it to experts
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aaronpk
I think if I try anything beyond photos and videos in stories it's going to be adding those fun feedback mechanisms
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[jgmac1106]
but +1 for all the media formats
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aaronpk
some of instagrams interactions are pretty fun
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[jgmac1106]
My story thing is gong to be like Zeega or Popcorn, but somehow spit out HTML slides, uisng 4X4 CSS Grid where you then get to stack HTML elements by inserting a URL and using z-index and/or allow you to stretch and shrink items across cells...just spits out one file with the CSS and HTML..have no idea how to build it but it will be done
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[jgmac1106]
maybe two files...I hate my stylesheet in my HTML file
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aaronpk
It's not very good but check out the latest story in my Instagram
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aaronpk
the little happy face slider thing is cool
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[jgmac1106]
ca people not on instagram see instagram stories?
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jacky
I don't think so
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[cleverdevil]
I don’t even have Insta on my phone anymore. I also tombstoned my account a while ago.
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jacky
fixed the RSVP for my site - now it shows up on https://2019.indieweb.org/online
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Loqi
IndieWebCamp Online
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jacky
now to make it more useful design wise
[benatwork], [tantek], [manton], aaronpk, [jeremycherfas] and [eddie] joined the channel
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[eddie]
!tell aaronpk oh wow, yeah the slider emoji is pretty fun!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek]
the slider emoji thing is basically a poll post and ability to respond accordingly
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Ruxton
slider emoji doesnt work on web, only in app
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Loqi
Ruxton: [jgmac1106] left you a message on 2018-12-19 at 12:55pm UTC: would this work: https://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgmac1106homepage.glitch.me%2Fvideoplaylist.html
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[eddie]
Hmmm I guess the response would essentially be either rounded 0-10 or 0-100 depending on how granular it is
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Ruxton
yah, works like range slider, just with nicer css ;)
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[kevinmarks]
Your story thing sounds like reveal.js [jgmac1106]
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petermolnar
I massively streamlined my HTML output: I got rid of microformats1, in-html rdfa, microdata, per entry h-cards (it's now a single link to the main footer). On the other hand, I added json-ld and added back open graph to the meta. The HTML does feel better, but it became much larger due to json-ld.
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swentel
who consumes json-ld ?
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petermolnar
google, yandex, etc
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petermolnar
while I have serious issues with schema.org, in the end I was able to use it as a reasonable good representation of a post of mine, so I moved from the randomly named template vars over to use the json-ld data in the templates and it made things simpler in the end
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petermolnar
where to we put google criticism? I'd like to add https://char.gd/blog/2019/google-news-is-broken
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petermolnar
it doesn't have a criticism section
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petermolnar
surprising
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Zegnat
Hmm. We may have all the criticism on the different Google products
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Zegnat
There should be a whole list of products linking off to other pages
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Zegnat
Also, even without a single criticism section, I’d argue most of that page can be read as criticism ;) It mostly lists products that were sunsetted, shutdown, it lists some outages, etc.
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petermolnar
fair point :)
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jgmac1106
yeah kevinmarks it is and a bit of javascript would make moving elements around easier but I could see HTML slides just as sections set to 100vh. I should just go and host my own version of Mozilla Popcorn or Zeega (like exampel I shared) that is all I want
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sknebel
(also, when microsub servers start doing organizer properties can we please get multiple values for those and not just one like for author?)
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aaronpk
What does h-event say about the organizer property?
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Loqi
aaronpk: [eddie] left you a message 6 hours, 19 minutes ago: oh wow, yeah the slider emoji is pretty fun!
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jgmac1106
Reserved properties: p-organizer - a person (co-)organizing the event, optionally embed h-card
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aaronpk
Hm not even listed as a core prop?
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jgmac1106
I don’t know what “reserved” property means…I thought it meant just use this for h-event and nothing else
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aaronpk
I went with singular vs plural based on what the wiki implied. So if that explicitly says one or more organizers of the event then I'd translate it into an array in XRay
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sknebel
since it mentions (co-)organinizing, clearly plural
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aaronpk
But it says "a" person singular
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aaronpk
so it contradicts itself I guess?
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sknebel
no, that's generally written that way
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sknebel
p-attendee: a person attending the event
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sknebel
describing what a value in the property is
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sknebel
or on other types, p-category: category/tag, not "categories/tags"
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aaronpk
I would say that is badly written then because I would not have assumed multiple values are ok based on that text
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aaronpk
it does say category(ies)
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[jgmac1106]
Yes and I would suggest an organization can be an organizer as well... Though there is usually an event (Co) chair in this case that could be p-organizer
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sknebel
right, on h-event it says that for categories, was looking at other types
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[jgmac1106]
But has to have multiple we require two organizers for any IWC
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sknebel
(side note: h-entry author says " p-author - who wrote the entry, optionally embedded h-card(s)" :P)
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sknebel
(plural!)
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aaronpk
I'm totally on board with it being multiple values, I'm just saying I would not have written the code that way just reading that text
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sknebel
and I'm saying the texts aren't necessarily reliable indicators of that
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sknebel
(which maybe is a bug)
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aaronpk
Just cause mf2 JSON has everything as an array doesn't mean every consumer is going to do something with all values of the array, so it's important to indicate whether it should expect one or more values for each property
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sknebel
yes, clarifying that is a good idea
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sknebel
(I have mixed feelings about jf2 being a second place to have such rules, especially where it goes against what the mf2 wording suggest)
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sknebel
i.e. h-entry saying u-photo "one or more photos", but jf2 saying "photo MUST be a single string value if present", h-entry saying "embedded h-card(s)" for author but jf2 insisting on a single one, ...
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aaronpk
Photo is an array in jf2
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aaronpk
if what I'm doing goes against the microformats text it's because I found more real examples of that and maybe we should fix the microformats text
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sknebel
then what does the quote above, straight from http://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#jf2feed mean?
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sknebel
photo MUST be a single string value if present on the top level feed object, its author property object, or any direct child entry object and MUST be a valid [URL].
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aaronpk
means that doc is out of date
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sknebel
so where is the up to date jf2 spec?
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aaronpk
I think it needs a bit of cleanup tbh
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aaronpk
that section is under jf2feed which I can't tell if that's supposed to mean that's what every entry has or what
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aaronpk
also there are mentions in that spec that say the properties themselves are determined by the vocab not that spec
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aaronpk
I also know that my idea of jf2 does not match Ben and Tantek's, which is what that spec represents. They weren't a fan of the spec deciding that some values are always singular or plural
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aaronpk
but my argument is that at some point something needs to decide that otherwise you push the work onto every implementation at the edge
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sknebel
that I can easily agree with
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[Rose]
Or the implementations don't support it and then break
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[Rose]
And they all support things which are just different enough to make it unusable?
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aaronpk
IIRC that jf2 spec says values are a string if there is a single value and an array otherwise, which is a start, but not enough
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aaronpk
if that spec wants to delegate the vocab decisions to mf2 that's fine but mf2 then needs to be explicit about which properties support multiple values
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[Rose]
Different topic (sorry, hopefully a quick one), is there anything about the Micropub spec about supporting (private) drafts/has anything been done or thought of in that direction? I didn't find anything in the wiki.
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aaronpk
What are micropub extensions?
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[Rose]
Knew it would be there somewhere. Thanks Aaron!
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[Rose]
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 79 karma in this channel over the last year (253 in all channels)
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aaronpk
Where did you look? We should add links to that page wherever you were looking to make it easier to find
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[Rose]
I searched.
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[Rose]
For Micropub draft.
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aaronpk
sknebel++ I forgot about that page
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Loqi
sknebel has 37 karma in this channel over the last year (94 in all channels)
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sknebel
aaronpk: to me the jf2 spec read as if the profile it offers wants to make those decisions for h-feeds with h-entries in them. although I now see it says "non-normative"
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[Rose]
Aha, another page. Thanks sknebel++
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Loqi
sknebel has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (95 in all channels)
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sknebel
and if it's not clear where to get those rules from, that's a problem e.g. for microsub
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aaronpk
[Rose]: aha! I'm not sure why search didn't turn that up!
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aaronpk
sknebel: yeah we should definitely sort this out. It's def not clear right now
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sknebel
because if all readers have to check if a property is an array or a string there's little gained over checking if it is an array of length 1 :D
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aaronpk
Yeah that's why XRay returns fixed types
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sknebel
right, but I do not want "do whatever xray does" as my spec when implementing microsub :D
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sknebel
so it might be worth going over the microformats wiki and trying to establish clear wordings or even explicit markers
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aaronpk
I'm fine if this should go in mf2 vocabs rather than jf2
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@kevinmarks
↩️ @kingkool68 Well, true, but he could have used #indieweb likes with webmention
(twitter.com/_/status/1093873895172722689)
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@jasonopus
↩️ I’ve been playing around with post formats and layouts to achieve a microblogging look/feel and I’m using microformats where I can. Unfortunately, no webmentions since there’s currently no plugin for them in #craftcms.
(twitter.com/_/status/1093877374062612483)
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jgmac1106
What is Craftcms?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Craftcms" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Craftcms is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jgmac1106
no worries sounds like not needed
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aaronpk
What is Craft?
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Loqi
Craft is a commercial PHP/MySQL CMS, with hosted and self-hosted options https://indieweb.org/Craft
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aaronpk
CraftCMS is Craft
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[jgmac1106]
figured we had a page
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[jgmac1106]
and there is a plugin
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@jgmac1106
↩️ Hey I found a plugin on the #IndieWeb #craftcms page https://github.com/matthiasott/webmention have no idea how or if it works but give it a spin (then if it works go to wiki and tell other people how to install) (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1E0Dor)
(twitter.com/_/status/1093879110504509440)
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[kevinmarks]
Hmm, my jf2 converter makes plural properties into children.
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[schmarty]
wow i wasn't getting notifications of my name from IRC => slack yesterday.
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[schmarty]
[eddie] [jgmac1106] here's my micropub endpoint on glitch: https://glitch.com/~prism-dirt
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[schmarty]
it is super stripped down, uses a single template to directly inject new entries into an HTML file via the neocities.com API 😂
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jgmac1106
schmarty if you don’t see that on the IndieWeb team page can you add it
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[schmarty]
i'm not sure it's good to point people at because it's a little wacky.
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[kevinmarks]
Was that me misunderstanding the format?
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jgmac1106
sounds good, nobody remixing stuff anyway and not sure how much I trust a 16k view in two week metric
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[schmarty]
my port of selfauth is a little more interesting but i haven't kept up with recent selfauth changes: https://glitch.com/~befitting-price
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aaronpk
[kevinmarks]: lol I have no idea what that's supposed to mean
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[schmarty]
(^^ is a slightly more immediately usable indieweb building block, even composable with non-glitch sites)
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aaronpk
also "js2"?
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Zegnat
[kevinmarks], I think the children property is only for a list of child h-* objects that are not nested in a specific property
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jgmac1106
cool add it then schmarty I can’t add other people’s projects
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Zegnat
E.g. having an h-card inside h-entry that is not an author (or any other property) would nest the jf2 card object in a children property on the entry object
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Zegnat
Basically `children` in jf2 is `items` in mf2. It doesn’t nest inside a poperty key
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jgmac1106
zegnat and wouldn’t that be fine for nesting the organizer of the h-event inside the content and the h-card for the author outside?
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jgmac1106
nvm read line aboove
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Zegnat
I don’t know what that question means jgmac1106 ... I was commnenting only on the children property in [kevinmarks]’s unmunged jf2
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jgmac1106
also reason why I said nvm (just tried to save face as I did it)
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Zegnat
No problem, just trying to understand, haha!
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jgmac1106
I do love the way unmung nests h-review I will say that I can do really complicated rubrics
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[kevinmarks]
I did typo jf2 in the url oops
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jgmac1106
but I think that is what you are saying h0reviews nest well in h-reviews, h-entries in h-entries?
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Zegnat
Everything can nest inside everything else in mf2. Though utility of it is very debatable, haha
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jgmac1106
ehhh not for me and the h-review if I needed to do math at different levels of rubrics seems the dta parsed in very useable ways with unmung
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[kevinmarks]
My pov is that deciding plurality per property is a retrograde step as then each implementation has to keep a table of properties to refer to. That's more work than always being plural and one more deref.
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[kevinmarks]
Which is not to say that you can have an opinionated parser that makes some things singular.
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[kevinmarks]
Let me rephrase.
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jgmac1106
so everything can be plural because evertyhing is a countable thing
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aaronpk
[kevinmarks]: no, because at the end of the day each implementation has to make that decision anyway so let's define it somewhere consistent
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aaronpk
and we're not talking about parsers anyway
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aaronpk
go write a reader and come back to this discussion
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[kevinmarks]
You can make a tool that ignores anything past the first one, sure.
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[kevinmarks]
I spent several years working on readers
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[kevinmarks]
So that kind of argument is a bit specious
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aaronpk
with microformats2 data?
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jgmac1106
so is it more work to signify each property as either a singular or plural when so few things in this world if they are countable can exist as one? (I will then bow out of convo as philosophy probably doesn’t help in the least)
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[eddie]
Yeah as an iOS developer of a reader app. Swift needs things to me well defined. It would be difficult to not know which jf2 should be singular and which should be plural
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[eddie]
Mf2 is always plural so that’s easy enough
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[eddie]
Jf2’s properties MUST be defined as singular or plural or developing with it is going to be a headache
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[eddie]
“That’s more work than always being plural” that sounds like mf2, so then why would jf2 exist? Although I’m not sure of the conclusion to that kevinmarks “one more deref?”
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aaronpk
[eddie]: let me ask this differently. would you rather have to pull the first value from the "published" array to get the timestamp, or always have "published" be a string?
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Zegnat
Also: do you expect readers to show the first or the last timestamp from a published array? Clearly users would expect the same timestamp in all their readers, so implementers have to come to some consistent answer to that question
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Zegnat
Might as well bake the answer to the question into a spec (e.g. jf2)
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Zegnat
(published array as in the mf2 array within the property called published)
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[kevinmarks]
If you're in Swift you are likely declaring a struct with a Date in and writing some marshal/unmarshal code to go to and from iso8601, so yes you're making the n-ary decision.
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aaronpk
you're either going to 1) bake the knowledge of whether things are single or plural into your code every time you access a value (when the data you're dealing with is always an array), or 2) bake the knowledge into some library that your code depends on and then your code can use the values as they appear
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[eddie]
I would expect it to be the first value (as Zegnat said) and I would rather it be a string. That's the point of jf2 being simplified
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[eddie]
If I wanted to just pull the first value from an array that would essentially be mf2
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[eddie]
which is more complicated, thus the whole point of jf2
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aaronpk
my hope was that returning the simplified data is helpful to app developers, as it was certainly helpful in writing my own apps. so it's good to hear that it has also helped others writing in other languages.
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[eddie]
Yes, it definitely helps me. I do have to deal with mf2 in Swift when making Micropub requests
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[eddie]
and jf2 is much more enjoyable to deal with
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sknebel
[eddie]: what did you use as a reference for if you expect an array or a value from a property?
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[eddie]
Since it's a Microsub reader I was able to use the Microsub spec
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[eddie]
which defines the jf2 you should expect
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[eddie]
so something like that for all of jf2 would be great
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sknebel
the microsub spec has an example for a post
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sknebel
ah, no, missed the bit below it
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sknebel
although of course it above says that it doesn'T define the vocabulary
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Zegnat
Doesn’t Microsub just cite jf2?
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Zegnat
What is Microsub?
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Loqi
Microsub provides a standardized way for reader apps to interact with feeds https://indieweb.org/microsub
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aaronpk
heh yeah I think officially it delegates to jf2 but it includes some examples in the spec
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sknebel
which of course is not the same as http://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#jf2feed
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sknebel
not just an example
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sknebel
and the example doesn't match the text below it :D
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sknebel
(it has photo as a string, but below it is described as an array)
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[eddie]
ohh yeah that's a bit odd
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aaronpk
yes the jf2 spec is out of date compared to implementations
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sknebel
so how is "sorry, your client expects a different version of jf2 than this server offers" avoided if theres "out of date"?
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aaronpk
where are you seeing this "(it has photo as a string, but below it is described as an array)"
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sknebel
(potentially, at some point freeze properties and only add new ones)
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Zegnat
“Living Specs”, sknebel ;) this is just new reality
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aaronpk
yes, same way we deal with changes everywhere else. things just slowly evolve.
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sknebel
aaronpk: ugh, sorry, misread the example, that's good :)
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[eddie]
http://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#jf2feed_required_fields this says the photo MUST be a string if present
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aaronpk
the jf2 text on "photo" is definitely wrong. the one confusing thing is that it will be a string on h-card but array on h-entry.
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aaronpk
(confusing thing to write in the jf2 spec anyway. it's easy to deal with in practice)
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sknebel
sure, but that's somewhat of a strength of going of mf2 json: you don't have a crashing dserializer if you suddenly start changing the number of property values
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aaronpk
well nothing should crash on deserialization, that's just irresponsible :P
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sknebel
sure, "do not show the property at all" :D
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sknebel
or whatever the fallback behavoir is
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sknebel
(just to be clear, I'm not totally arguing against having it, some examples are very safely one-valued (rsvp), but moving the details out of the clients doesn't mean changes don't affect the clients)
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[eddie]
absolutely, changes affect the clients. But by moving the details out of the clients it makes the boilerplate code the clients have to write easier
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[schmarty]
aaronpk: oops finally looked at why some posts were appearing but my site's feed pages weren't updating. hugo doesn't like when "tags" contains nested objects and i forgot to handle that in my micropub endpoint.
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aaronpk
is that why the videos didn't get posted?
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[schmarty]
yeah. they were actually there but hugo was failing to rebuild the site.
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aaronpk
that explains why I haven't seen them in my reader then
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[schmarty]
yep. they should show up whenever watchtower polls again. i see 'em now.
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aaronpk
I want to fav them to save those videos to my site :)
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aaronpk
some day watchtower will support websub :P
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[schmarty]
that will be an excellent day.
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[eddie]
Yes, that would be an amazing day
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aaronpk
heh I didn't mean to not do it for this long
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[schmarty]
aaronpk: in all my research i think the most-touted way to get a still frame from a video on an iOS device is to watch the video, pause it where you want, and take a screenshot 😂
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aaronpk
I was in a hurry to get aperture out the door, and polling ended up working "good enough" and I haven't gone back to fix it heh
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aaronpk
lol that's terrible
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[Rose]
You can convert the video to a GIF and get the individual frames in Shortcuts.
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aaronpk
is deploying changes to quill from the plane
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[schmarty]
[Rose] good call! i have a shortcut that turns Live Photo GIFs back into videos for looping and posts them via micropub. i could grab one of the GIF frames for a featured (poster) image.
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aaronpk
hope it works
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aaronpk
is finishing his HWC project
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aaronpk
oh crap
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[Rose]
On the plane. Gate is closed. People are still coming in from the freezing jetway though.
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aaronpk
:headdesk:
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[Rose]
Wrong paste, dang it.
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aaronpk
:headtray:
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[schmarty]
haha uh oh
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[Rose]
That's the one.
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[Rose]
So, Aaron broke Quill on a plane?
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aaronpk
forgot to push a dependency fix
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[Rose]
That's a problem.
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[schmarty]
rose++ thanks for the video still shortcut!
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Loqi
rose has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (16 in all channels)
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aaronpk
let's see if I can do this before we lose internet over canada
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[jgmac1106]
!tell Cleverdevil see Rose's video clip shortcut
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[schmarty]
i was able to get micropub edits working with a shortcut yesterday. micropub query, then extracting and sending the content over to Drafts (where i edit and copy content to clipboard), then return to shortcut to package up a micropub edit and send it.
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aaronpk
*whew* fixed
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aaronpk
wow almost an entire year without an update to indieauth-client-php, guess it's been working well
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aaronpk
[schmarty]: you should be able to log in to quill with mmg.re now :)
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aaronpk
this is part of my plan to convince mastodon/gitlab/etc to support indieauth
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[schmarty]
hmmm. i may have my redirects set up wrong. i successfully logged in as mmg.re rather than martymcgui.re
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aaronpk
that's odd
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Loqi
Marty McGuire
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aaronpk
should be permanent redireft if you don't want it to be an identity
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[schmarty]
i thought i had changed this to be a permanent redirect. 😕
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aaronpk
so I realized that most people's main complaint about OpenID is that user IDs are URLs and users are expected to enter their URL in sign-in forms. the pushback I always get is that people don't think of their accounts as URLs, they think of email address instead.
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aaronpk
and for simple domains, "aaronpk.com" is actually easier to enter than an email address, but the reality is, and likely always will be, that most people will not have simple URLs like that
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aaronpk
and I totally agree that expecting users to enter crap like google.com/userlksdjflkj/2398572983571235 or whatever google did for openid is not good
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aaronpk
but here's where it gets interesting
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[schmarty]
awwwwwwwww heck yeah. switched to 301 redirect and now it's resolving just fine.
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[schmarty]
wonders if aaronpk entered a no-wifi airplane zone just as he was about to say how it gets interesting.
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aaronpk
(heh someone wanted out of the row)
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aaronpk
users who have an account on something like gitlab.org do in fact already have a URL as their identity, e.g. gitlab.org/aaronpk
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aaronpk
and same with mastodon
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aaronpk
so i'm thinking, instead of ask users to enter their full URL, ask them to enter the server their profile is hosted on. that maps to the mental model of how people interact with these things too.
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aaronpk
so someone would enter "gitlab.org" into the quill sign-in box, and gitlab.org has an authorization_endpoint defined, so quill knows where to send people to sign in,
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aaronpk
and if you're already signed in, you just click through without even having to enter your user account info, not even an email address
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[schmarty]
oh true. known multiuser has worked like that for a while, right?
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aaronpk
and if you're not signed in, you sign in as normal however that service does it. maybe email address, maybe username, maybe in the future webauthn
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aaronpk
and from the indieauth point of view, quill will end up getting the full URL of the user in the end anyway
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aaronpk
yeah known has worked like this for a while
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aaronpk
but this way, I have the advantage that this login flow actually requires *less work* for users compared to email-based openid connect discovery
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aaronpk
so I can avoid the whole "but users don't think of themselves as a url" argument which kills me every time
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aaronpk
because for users who don't, they still don't need to, and for users who do, they can
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aaronpk
for single-user sites like aaronpk.com, it's great because I can use my real domain just the same as someone can use a shared account like mastodon.social or gitlab.org
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[eddie]
That seems great
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aaronpk
also notice that i'm not proposing any changes to the indieauth spec ;-) this has all been possible for a long time, we've just never pitched it to people this way before
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[eddie]
Yeah, exactly!
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aaronpk
anyway i'm planning on turning this into either a blog post or a tutorial for people building multi-user sites
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Zegnat
aaronpk, that makes a lot of sense! As long as the whole domain uses the same auth endpoint for every user, no need for the user to supply their userpage for sign in!
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sknebel
wonder if there's a good candidate project to make a prototype for
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aaronpk
yep! so I would encourage multiuser systems to advertise the auth endpoint on the home page
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aaronpk
gogs or gitea (go) or gitlab (ruby)
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[eddie]
micro.blog is a good initial candidate for this
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[eddie]
as in, already supports IndieAuth, but does the root domain advertise an auth endpoint?
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aaronpk
[eddie]: i'm not actually sure about that, since there's many ways people end up using it and this is meant to work with just one way
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aaronpk
some people have a custom domain, and entering "micro.blog" when their final URL should be their custom domain won't work
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sknebel
yeah, was thinking gitea or something too. something were you can show the "you can easily log into other instances" thing too
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aaronpk
hosted micro.blogs end up with subdomains, so it's just as easy to enter your blog url as aaronpk.micro.blog vs micro.blog
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GWG
aaronpk, isn't that how I am doing it on WordPress also?
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[eddie]
That's true!
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aaronpk
this is really meant specifically for sites that are multi-user where user accounts are paths
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aaronpk
yeah GWG! wordpress should already work this way if the home page has the authorization endpoint defined on it
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[jgmac1106]
schmarty this is url of a known multiuser site: http://knowndemo.jgregorymcverry.com/profile/jgmac1106
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aaronpk
this is definitely a pain point on gitea/gogs/gitlab right now
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aaronpk
the number of times i've seen people say "ugh I have to sign up for another ____ instance" is a lot
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aaronpk
and it's like no you don't, you should be able to sign in using the identity on your own instance
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GWG
aaronpk, I just thought if you were writing a post, that is a good example that works now
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aaronpk
GWG do you remember if the home page has the authorization endpoint defined? or is it just the user pages?
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sknebel
hm, the site [jgmac1106] linked above doesn't have an endpoint on the root?
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GWG
aaronpk, all pages
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aaronpk
cool, I can use that for screenshots then
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GWG
I never filtered it by page, so it should be everywhere
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GWG
aaronpk, maybe I should take it off the single pages though?
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GWG
Never occurred to me
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aaronpk
it's only really useful on the home page and author profiles
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GWG
I'll make a note for next time I am in the code
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sknebel
guess one could also make a demo around lasso-auth maybe...
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aaronpk
I just feel like all the git projects are set up so well for this since they're web-based and clearly have a need for this
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GWG
Which I need to be as I never certified the plugin as working with 5.0
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GWG
aaronpk, how easy is a self hosted proof of concept?
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aaronpk
of what?
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GWG
Git/Indieauth
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aaronpk
I don't know
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aaronpk
it'll require writing ruby code for gitlab, or go for gogs/gitea
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sknebel
the biggest change doing something like this probably adding the notion of a remote user
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Zegnat
tries to think of a PHP project that could get this tacked onto it as a weekend project
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sknebel
although gitea seems to support external auth backends, so it can handle at least some of it
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GWG
I haven't pursued a big feature in a bit
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GWG
I want to add something this weekend
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aaronpk
sknebel: yeah that's usually the challenge, but a lot of them already support things like logging in with a google account
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aaronpk
internally they make a new user it just doesn't have a password
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sknebel
true, you don't need "remote users"
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aaronpk
could probably use the same trick here, creating a local entry in the users table so that there are internal IDs to reference
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aaronpk
you'd probably not want to define a username though, and not show a local URL of that user
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aaronpk
but that all seems like relatively minor stuff
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[jgmac1106]
skenbel that is out of date version I should update..hard to keep playgrounds and your own sites current
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Loqi
Greg McVerry
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sknebel
I was thinking along the lines of "remote users" as users that aren't full users, and e.g. maybe can't own repos etc
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sknebel
afk, food
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aaronpk
hm yeah there's probably a bunch of stuff you wouldn't want these users to be able to do on the local instance
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aaronpk
sounds like a flag on the users table would cover it
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[tantek]
wow lots of great discussions for a Friday morning!
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aaronpk
friday afternoon for me :D
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[tantek]
!tell petermolnar if google, yandex are your jsonld/schema use-cases, then mf1 works great for them too. what (dis)advantages do you see for using mf1 vs jsonld? (e.g. page size, learning curve, DRY etc.)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek]
aaronpk thought I saw some like ~5am from you (so 8am for you?)
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aaronpk
I guess I have been at this a while
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[tantek]
!tell petermolnar I would like to clear up the misconception that jsonld is necessary for google/yandex because it is not. I want to understand how you came to that conclusion and understand what upstream documentation we need to update / fix / create to help reduce that in the future
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
can archive.org archive the new flickr URLs?
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aaronpk
with all their js
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aaronpk
wanna make sure https://www.flickr.com/photos/jackdorsey/182613360/ is saved in case flickr decides to delete it
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aaronpk
great, getting a java 500 error trying to save it in web.archive.org
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[tantek]
is it not CC?
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aaronpk
ah it is, forgot about that
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[tantek]
it's cc-by-2 - it's fine
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[tantek]
all cc content from before is grandfathered
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[tantek]
I'm also tempted to just go re-post all photos that are in my Flickr favorites
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[tantek]
the ones that aren't cc
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[tantek]
as a way of "saving" them
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[tantek]
actually that should be an app / script
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[tantek]
because as a PRO user you can do that
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[tantek]
cite the original like you do on any /repost obviously to give credit, and make the original URL "discoverable" by search engines
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aaronpk
that was nice
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aaronpk
when people built prototypes of their web apps as plain HTML that works everywhere
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[tantek]
I bet it even "worked on mobile" 🙂
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[tantek]
Twitter << 2006-07-05 Original Twttr HTML-only UI: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jackdorsey/182614595/in/photostream/
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[jgmac1106]
I tried to fork and make an mf2 one but that was before I knew anythign and stuck u-phot and u-url on everything
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[jgmac1106]
plus realized I needed one for featured images and one for regular images, does use the <small>e element whihc I know not everyone is a fan of
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sknebel
hm, gitlab can be oauth provider already
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aaronpk
sknebel: awesome then it should be even less work to turn that into indieauth
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sknebel
aaronpk: maybe? not sure how easy it is to convert existing implementations
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aaronpk
yeah I haven't dug into that code at all
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[tantek]
is there an issue filed on gitlab to add indieauth support
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[tantek]
what is gitlab
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Loqi
GitLab offers git repository management, code reviews, issue tracking, activity feeds and wikis https://indieweb.org/GitLab
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aaronpk
I don't think so, and i've been avoiding it until I can properly write up the benefits they get and how to do it
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aaronpk
which is where this thread started
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[tantek]
Where is your talk from the W3C workshop on identity?
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[tantek]
that did a good job
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aaronpk
yes that's a start
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[tantek]
I don't think you should wait, I think it's better to put something down with that as a starting point, and then note that you're writing up more docs
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aaronpk
I totally disagree
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aaronpk
it will turn people off if they don't understand and they'll never look at it again
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aaronpk
i've seen this happen before
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[tantek]
ok that's a fair concern. do we have examples where we've filed IndieAuth feature request issues that have or have not been implemented?
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aaronpk
I think mastodon?
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[tantek]
when you say you've seen this happen before - was it due to an IndieAuth feature request issue? or something else?
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[tantek]
nope. no one ever filed an issue there
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aaronpk
weird I thought my w3c talk was on /videos or /presentations
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[tantek]
In fact I would argue Mastodon didn't (hasn't) do/done IndieAuth *because* there hasn't been an issue filed
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[tantek]
I think it's worth being more bold ther
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aaronpk
there was mention of indieauth in this thread https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/4800
#
Loqi
[Sylvhem] #4800 Allow Mastodon to be used as an OpenID provider
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Loqi
[coolaj86] #3837 Simpler UX for OAuth2 login with GitHub
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[tantek]
that mastodon issue is worth adding to https://indieweb.org/Mastodon#IndieAuth_Provider
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[tantek]
especially since there's now a critical mass of folks supporting IndieAuth in that thread
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aaronpk
my internet is dropping in and out now, someone else will have to
#
[tantek]
That Gitea issue went off the rails a bit
#
snarfed
aaronpk: re entering just the domain and then discovering full profile url, didn't openid have a way to do that at some point?
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snarfed
pretty sure it did. i don't remember the name though.
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[tantek]
aaronpk, I believe this post: https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/07/7/oauth-for-the-open-web is good enough to file issues requesting IndieAuth
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[tantek]
snarfed, OID Attribute Exchange AFAIK
#
[tantek]
(yet another "let's reinvent vcard! yay!")
#
Loqi
giggles
#
aaronpk
snarfed: openid connect does have a discovery mechanism, using .well-known. and it's assumed you'll use the user's email address to find that document.
#
snarfed
or just the domain, right?
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aaronpk
I don't think any UIs accept just a domain for openid connect
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snarfed
probably not for connect, no; this was way back a while ago
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snarfed
probably 1.1 at the latest
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aaronpk
also pretty much every OIDC implementation requires pre-registration and doesn't actually federate in the open
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snarfed
er, openid pre-oauth
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snarfed
anyway. might be useful prior art, or just for citing, but not important
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[tantek]
snarfed, I knew what you meant
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[tantek]
it was shortened to OID AX back in the day
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snarfed
[tantek]++
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Loqi
[tantek] has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (93 in all channels)
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aaronpk
I think original openid did work that way, but IIRC some big providers didn't do that discovery thing right so people had to type in the full url anyway
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aaronpk
[tantek]: that blog post is definitely along the lines of what I want to write up for people, but I want something that starts out with IndieAuth instead of setting it up from the perspective of OAuth
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aaronpk_
don't know why it didn't occur to me to make the option for per-channel retention in aperture
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aaronpk_
i have a few where i really don't care about the full history, and if i want to save something i'll favorite it or reply to it
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aaronpk_
those also tend to be the chattiest channels, like my twitter search for "oauth"
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aaronpk_
so that's there now. another push from the plane which i probably should not have done until i landed :P
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[tantek]
I feel like push from plane is even more dicey than test in production
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[jgmac1106]
Always ask for a parachute first
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Loqi
Sorry, you have to be listed on https://indieweb.org/irc-people before you can help retweet
#
[manton]
Whoops.
#
aaronpk
Manton isn't on that page? Or is Loqi confused
#
sknebel
isn't on there
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[manton]
Fixing.
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[manton]
Trying again...
#
Loqi
Sorry, you have to be listed on https://indieweb.org/irc-people before you can help retweet
#
aaronpk
It'll take like 5 minutes to sync up sorry
#
Zegnat
jacky: for counting feed subscribtions, some services will actually put subscription numbers in their UA when fetching the feed.
#
[manton]
[aaronpk] Cool, thanks.
#
jacky
ahh that bit I saw somewhere on the wiki
#
Loqi
Thanks! We need one more person to confirm the retweet!
#
[eddie]
since it needs two people anyway
#
[manton]
[eddie] Thank you. Just noticed the official IWC account hadn't tweeted anything yet. Time to get the word out! 🙂
#
Zegnat
There we go :D
#
[eddie]
[manton] Definitely 🙂
#
[manton]
@Zegnat :thumbsup:
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jacky
so many features I want to add but like determining the usefulness of them is just as easy as making a house from scratch
#
jacky
"do I _need_ a follow button?"
#
jacky
"should I show total stats of incoming responses?"
#
jacky
definitely going to add rel=subscribe support tho
#
Zegnat
“Do I _need_ to let people select a range for my weight graph” no, but it sure is fun!
#
snarfed
˚"indieweb: vive la difference"
#
petermolnar
[tantek]: that google vs json-ld: I know it's not necessary, and I'm basically just testing things, to see if it makes any kind of difference - so far, it's inconclusive. While the google recommendation is certainly json-ld, it is also very true that if it doesn't make any difference, why bother?
#
Loqi
petermolnar: [tantek] left you a message 2 hours, 55 minutes ago: if google, yandex are your jsonld/schema use-cases, then mf1 works great for them too. what (dis)advantages do you see for using mf1 vs jsonld? (e.g. page size, learning curve, DRY etc.)
#
Loqi
petermolnar: [tantek] left you a message 2 hours, 54 minutes ago: I would like to clear up the misconception that jsonld is necessary for google/yandex because it is not. I want to understand how you came to that conclusion and understand what upstream documentation we need to update / fix / create to help reduce that in the future
#
petermolnar
I was merely playing with structured vocabularies, to see if it makes a difference; it does help organizing some of my thing to be fair
#
petermolnar
but none of them seems to be necessary so far
#
Zegnat
Released, the worst UI you can imagine, an ever growing table with radio buttons in them (and no accessibility labels at all): https://vanderven.se/martijn/health/weight/ - if people would like to let me know if stuff works for them that would be sweet
#
[eddie]
hehe, yeah the table of radio buttons is pretty.... rough. 😆 But it worked for me!
#
[eddie]
very cool!
#
Zegnat
I don’t do visitor stats, but I don’t imagine a lot of people even view that page, let alone need the radio buttons. So I shipped it as good-enough-for-me
#
jacky
Zegnat: exactly! lol
#
jacky
although, I'd love to show my fitness stats under posts
#
jacky
or like on my archive pages on a weekly basis
#
jacky
woah Zegnat that's still cool!
#
Zegnat
The feature is mostly there so I can create screenshots of the graph without having to include all history (e.g. screenshot of just 2019)
#
Zegnat
This was the simplest way I could think of. Date pickers and such are tricky
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[tantek]
jacky, short answer run your own WebSub hub
#
aaronpk
That only counts websub subscribers tho, there's still polling that would be not counted
#
aaronpk
If you had a websub feed that required authentication then you could get an accurate count. Which is kind of how mastodon can have accurate follower numbers.
#
jacky
that'd be a start tho
#
aaronpk
It's definitely something
#
aaronpk
other answers: some reader services include a subscriber count in their user agent header to let you know how many people on their service subscribe to your feed
#
aaronpk
beyond that you can count unique IPs that request your site as an approximation
#
aaronpk
Yep that
#
jacky
yeah tbh I might do the subscriber count bit to start off (lower bit of work and I already see that in my logs)
#
aaronpk
I should add that to watchtower if I haven't already
#
Loqi
it is probable
#
jacky
oooh this is really great actually
#
jacky
because if they also expose h-x-app info I can make rich media info
#
jacky
s/media/meta/g
#
jacky
when showing status
#
jacky
the changelog has a big audience; I hope that more people pick it up
#
jacky
thank god I have a free weekend (kinda) lol
#
jacky
so much to hack on
#
[tantek]
aaronpk so this is about to become a REC: https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/
#
[tantek]
and I'm going to get questions (you will too from some folks) about what is the relationship between IndieAuth and WebAuthN?
#
[tantek]
if you support WebAuthN, why do you need IndieAuth?
#
[tantek]
that kind of thing
#
[tantek]
just a heads-up. queue and prioritize as you see fit
#
aaronpk
Ah nice they will play well together
#
[tantek]
note that WebAuthN is supported in browsers
#
[tantek]
great! then the easier we can tell that story, the better
#
aaronpk
same questions apply to webauthn vs OAuth
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aaronpk
which I need to write about on the okta blog if it's about to be a REC
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[tantek]
Especially if there's some incremental, now that you added WebAuthN support, here's all you need to do to add IndieAuth support on top - type guide
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aaronpk
eta for that?
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[tantek]
it's a Proposed REC now, and comments are due by February 14th
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Zegnat
mumbles something about having a prototype IndieAuth signin flow with yubikey that needs work
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[tantek]
you remember the approximate lag between end of PR comments/voting period and publishing a REC
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Zegnat
I should prioritise my yubikey flows, mostly because it could make for really nice demo material
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[tantek]
you may want to pre-seed a /webauthn page on your OAuth and IndieAuth sites with a minimal summary / paragraph just to start getting it indexed
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[tantek]
so when it does become a REC and people start searching for WebAuthN, your pages will already be indexed
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[tantek]
what is WebAuthn
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Loqi
Web Authentication is a W3C Candidate Recommendation for an API to access public key credentials, including for a browser, optionally with the use of a hardware key https://indieweb.org/webauthn
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Zegnat
aaronpk, did you ever do the passwordless-hardware-key-login for IndieAuth?
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aaronpk
Good call
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aaronpk
Zegnat: .com?
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Zegnat
No, just in general
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Zegnat
Not sure how indieauth.com would connect my browser+token combination to my site while also being stateless. Though I haven’t looked into that a lot yet to be honest
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aaronpk
Zegnat: webauthn isn't a replacement for an identity, it's just an authentication mechanism, and it requires pre registration before it's useful
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aaronpk
so it can never be used as part of the IndieAuth spec, but any IndieAuth server can use it to authenticate users
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Zegnat
That’s what I was working on. Basically I was trying to get my IndieAuth endpoint to give a sad smiley when key not plugged in, or a big green “continue logged in” button when key plugged in.
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aaronpk
That'd be sweet
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Zegnat
Dropping passwords and everything else completely from the flow. Which makes for really nice demo.
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Zegnat
And one feature I have been wanting for the longest time is a state on my endpoint side to have a “remember me” option. So the next time I try to login to the same site (say indieweb.org) it will not even show the page and instantly log me in
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Zegnat
(That is site and redirect url have to match a previously saved pair, any url change triggers the need to reacknowledge)
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Zegnat
makes that his weekend project
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Zegnat
Lets see if I can get that working
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[Rose]
How many hours are in your weekends? 😂
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Zegnat
[Rose], thankfully I am super well versed on the IndieAuth part of that system. It is only WebAuthn that I am still experimenting with.
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aaronpk
You can get an extra long weekend if you fly west
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Zegnat
We’ll see how far I get. A weekend is enough to do some crazy stuff at IWCs, why not at home? :D
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[Rose]
Sounds like a very good bbasis.
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[Rose]
*basis.
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