#dev 2019-03-02
2019-03-02 UTC
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[kevinmarks] So we're better with prototypes thta people can think of themselves as?
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gRegorLove Does Aperture show debug details about feed fetching, like whether it's websub or polling?
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KartikPrabhu I never thought of the generations as ordering or ranking to move up. I think it is more of a guideline for people developing these things
# [kevinmarks] The implication was that each generation would help create the indieweb to welcome the next
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# KartikPrabhu right. not as a ranking to progress up
# KartikPrabhu jacky: well then which one is the "evil" one ;)
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[grantcodes] A potential fix for people feeling ranked is to just not to use numbers for the generations?
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jacky perhaps something more "flat" like how https://fediverse.party/ is laid out? instead of 'instance' types but skills or interest
# gRegorLove Aha, well that answers my question aaronpk. Was curious why my post hadn't shown up yet :)
# [grantcodes] True, but more of a #meta discussion I think
# gRegorLove no worries. Loving it and Monocle so far!
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swentel interesting, how is this tracked ? https://the-federation.info/protocol/webmention
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# gRegorLove haha, glad to help? :)
# gRegorLove I think I still need to fix something with that for the h-feed author in Aperture, though I can't remember what it was exactly
# gRegorLove checks chat search
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# gRegorLove jacky, interesting. do you have a "find by mf type" function?
# gRegorLove That might be easier than digging into nested mf
# gRegorLove Found that bug I needed to fix. It was just changing `h-card` to `p-author h-card` on my homepage, so the feed has an author.
# gRegorLove jacky, some PHP prior work, if that helps: https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner/blob/master/src/BarnabyWalters/Mf2/Functions.php#L319
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# jacky it's like https://pow.cx or https://ngrok.io but 100% free, self-hostable and allow for really nested domain names
# jacky so I can do https://app1.lt.jacky.wtf and go
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Loqi local development is (or local dev, local dev setup) the practice of having a version of your site on your local machine like a laptop that you can use for development purposes, even when offline https://indieweb.org/local_dev
# Loqi ok, I added "https://localtunnel.me per https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-03-02#t1551496167188600" to the "See Also" section of /local_development https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57592&oldid=50372
# Loqi [Jacky Alciné] Distributed sign in that'd help facilitate nomadic identities on the Web by way of #Fortress :) https://playvicious.social/system/media_attachments/files/000/831/893/original/ccee9191251bf1b1.png
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[tantek] Would be great to add that screenshot as part of an entry onFortress in /IndieAuth!
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# Loqi ok, I added "https://playvicious.social/@jalcine/101679068023639662" to the "See Also" section of /Fortress https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57595&oldid=55701
# Loqi [Jacky Alciné] Distributed sign in that'd help facilitate nomadic identities on the Web by way of #Fortress :) https://playvicious.social/system/media_attachments/files/000/831/893/original/ccee9191251bf1b1.png
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# [tantek] Perl << IndieWeb Examples: https://twitter.com/timbray/status/1101368525589893121
# Loqi ok, I added "IndieWeb Examples: https://twitter.com/timbray/status/1101368525589893121" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Perl https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57597&oldid=29880
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[jgmac1106] still struggling to figure out how you take a little bit of data from a form, save it to the HTML file and then display it...its a huge learning cliff
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jeremycherfas You almost certainly need something beyond HTML, to POST the data to and then to add it to the HTML you want. I use PHP for that. Other people may have other suggestions.
# [jgmac1106] I know, deciding between PHP and my databases, because thati is what everyone around here uses, or diving in learning node.js as the state of php tutorials is garbage
# [jgmac1106] there are way more learning resources for other languages...all of the coding tutorials sites state they will no longer teach php since there is no longer demand
# [jgmac1106] fooling around with LowDB...I set up a MYSQL database I could use...but that feels heavy and so many people poo poo databases
# jeremycherfas You keep saying that the state of PHP tutorials is garbage, and yet even people like me seem to be able to learn it.
# [jgmac1106] what are you using? I could not find anything good after two days of searching
# jeremycherfas Admittedly it is slow, and sometimes obscure, but if you have a basic understanding of programming logic, it is not insurmountable.
# jeremycherfas And I get lots of help here when I ask specific questions.
# [jgmac1106] yeah the hard part is just learnign enough to write the correct question...
# jeremycherfas Like a couple of days ago when cweiske helped me understand that I don't need cURL for a simple operation to get a bit of information from a page.
# jeremycherfas Last time we discussed this, I told you that I did a MOOC, and you were happy that it was about to start again.
# [jgmac1106] started here: http://php.net/manual/en/getting-started.php
# jeremycherfas What coding languages do you know?
# [jgmac1106] none
# [jgmac1106] a bit of javascript
# jeremycherfas I think that's the basic difficulty. You need a grasp of the logic, not necessarily of a specific language.
# jeremycherfas The PHP manual is great for when you need to answer a specific question about how to use a particular function or what have you.
# jeremycherfas It will not teach you how to use PHP.
# [jgmac1106] I went to "getting-started" tutorial....
# jeremycherfas It doesn't even really tell you the difference between the view (what you see in a browser) and the controller that decides what the browser should show.
# jeremycherfas What was the first problem you encountered withy that tutorial?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "first problem you encountered withy that tutorial" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "first problem you encountered withy that tutorial is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [jgmac1106] maybe just a fifteen year old comment as the op user contribution that went way beyond the scope of the page scared me off...made me think,,,well if that is the current state of this document,,,,
# [jgmac1106] when people for fifteen years have been saying somethign is wrong with a tutorial and it doesn't get updated that scares me
# [jgmac1106] I will get there...after Online and Nw Haven...I will have solution
# 
@uplandscarradio Kia Pro_Ceed installed with a JL active Microsub twin with w3v3 drivers ,Focal Flax front components,Focal Flax rear coax,Pioneer 1200w amp and finished off with Dynamat super lite sound deadening
@JLAudio @jlaudiouk @Focal_UK @FocalOfficial @PioneerUK @pioneer (twitter.com/_/status/1101807565107810304)
# [jgmac1106] I didn;t try any youtube tutorials...I will do that next,
# [jgmac1106] okay maybe I will go back to tryin to use PHP and MySQL, but eveyone said that was way too heavy a solution for a guestbook and I should just inject the php to save in the html file
# jeremycherfas For the moment, forget about MYSQL. You can do a lot just writing directly from PHP to a file. That's all I do.
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# [kevinmarks] With php you get the form data in a special global called GET or POST
# jeremycherfas It's a bit like driving a car. At least, that's how I think about it. You want the autonomous car now. Tell it where to go, and it gets you there. I say, learn to drive. Once you do that, you can drive anything. You'll probably crash a Maserati, and be frustrated by a Lada, but you will know what else you need to know.
# [kevinmarks] If you want broader teaching, there's "how to think like a computer scientist" though that is more python shaped
# jeremycherfas So, if your guestbook is a page called guest.html, there is a form somewhere (maybe on the same page, doesn't matter). That collects the data. It sends it off in an array called POST, which contains the name and value of each bit of information you collected. Your script then takes the data from there and adds it to the file called guest.html, along with any extra stuff you want on that page, life mf2. And
# jeremycherfas that's it. You're done.
# [jgmac1106] that is what I have now, guestbook.html, guestbook.php I think it is my database configuration not my PHP anyways
# [jgmac1106] https://glitch.com/edit/#!/kevoglass is my php version of the guestbook
# [jgmac1106] not worrying about getting the data back out and onto the page again....that part is all wrong.step at a time..get data saved
# [kevinmarks] The little blog thingy I made there ended up being a guest book
# [jgmac1106] yeah [kevinmarks] I have a version of your miniblog I tried to fork, trying to use that to learn
# [jgmac1106] so basically I have one version where I am trying to PHO and MySQL and another where I play with your little thingy
# [jgmac1106] goal for IWC Online and New Haven..have one of the two in production
# [jgmac1106] thank you jeremycherfas and kevinmarks..time to go feed the kids, morning hack over, but you are pushing me forward and keeping me from giving up
# [jgmac1106] one version https://indieweb-guestbook.glitch.me/ and then the other http://indiewebguestbook2.glitch.me I will figure out something
# jeremycherfas I have no idea about glitch; seems very complicated to me.
# [kevinmarks] It's an ide for node. You can just use it as a static site editor.
# jeremycherfas OK, But I still think it is overkill for what [jgmac1106] is trying to do, at this stage. Better off with something like LAMP or MAMP. But that's just IMO
# jeremycherfas I personally wouyldn't even start styling until I knew I had the data I wanted in the form I wanted.
# jeremycherfas I don't even see a `submit` in Greg's form in guestbook.html
# [jgmac1106] jeremycherfas I only use Glitch to edit html...only tried fooling with the node.j sstuff because it is there
# [jgmac1106] ohh yeah removed submit in testing let me put back..good place to start, thx
# [jgmac1106] I am fine with LAMP simply because I put more value in people when it comes to learning and everyone I know still uses a LAMP stack
# [jgmac1106] if I am learning a language I should learn Ruby though since that is what Ambesh built our app on..
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# jeremycherfas Don't think of it in terms of learning a language. Think of it as learning to speak. The specific language comes later.
# [jgmac1106] now we have have to get into chomsky, its just patterns
# [jgmac1106] stare long enough and you can find patterns and twhen things don't work what breaks the pattern
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[schmarty] jgmac1106 I will pair with you to walk you through building this guestbook ok glitch at NHV if you want
# [jgmac1106] sweet!! then I can do the same with others
# [schmarty] *on
# [jgmac1106] I think online will be too busy on logistics and teaching for a big project
# [schmarty] Yeah I'm not confident about online for more than discussions and demos
# [schmarty] Tutorials maybe but not a lot of back and forth
# jeremycherfas Screw chomsky. I'm a strong whorfian.
# [jgmac1106] yeah i cut off...I chave not read whorfian...sounds exciting...I usually come from a more Piece semiotics..but this is #chat thanks fro recommendation
# [jgmac1106] schmarty we will see, I have done some great online conferences..but usually with people used to the format
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sandhawke I don't think I have that level of interestto attend IIW -- but I happen to be at RWoT right now, and that seems like a sweet spot for me to work on while I'm here. I just made this:
# sandhawke which should perhaps have a column for IndieAuth
# sandhawke although it's not quite the same type of thing, it kina is
# sandhawke Anyway - DIDs seem to have a lot of momentum, so I'm inclined to fit webids & indieauth, which I much prefer, into the DID world
# sandhawke In person everyone here denies that, and they seem to welcome other mechanisms.
# sandhawke Yes, "peer"
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aaronpk Even just reading https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-primer/#the-format-of-a-did-0 they casually drop a mention of blockchain as the only option
# sandhawke Yes, I know, and they know.
# sandhawke But the best solution IMHO is just deploy something as nice and simple as indieauth
# sandhawke But I agree there's a culture clash
# sandhawke Right.
# sandhawke And it doesn't matter if they want that
# sandhawke The end-users benefit
# sandhawke They're working on DID-Auth, trying to figure out what that means. There are two papers about that this weekend, one from Microsoft.
# sandhawke I agree re "way overkill", so I want to show how simple it can be. They're not the first "way overkill" people in identity / authn / authz.
# sandhawke I mean -- maybe I should just go watch netflix -- this might be a silly waste of time, but I'm here, and it's a lot of smart and motivate people, so I can't help but wonder about trying to steer them a bit.
# sandhawke fair enough :-) Is https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/ pretty much up-to-date with your thinking?
# sandhawke ( sad not to see a change log from https://www.w3.org/TR/2018/NOTE-indieauth-20180123/ )
# aaronpk Yep and https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/07/7/oauth-for-the-open-web is a good explanation too
# sandhawke ok
# sandhawke +1
# aaronpk If video is more your thing, I gave this talk at the W3C workshop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeCNlB7v08I
# sandhawke cool, pulling out headphones and wathching...
# sandhawke ha - amused to hear Wendy's voice moderating the session
# sandhawke I don't understand the value of public apps being identified
# sandhawke (good video)
# sandhawke I guess there's some attack it's intended prevent.
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# jacky the only other idea I've seen thus far that was 'usable' has been https://docs.ipfs.io/guides/concepts/dnslink/
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# swentel GWG, I've documented my experimental geo:uri;h=card on https://indieweb.org/checkin#Posting_checkins_from_clients (but I'm not sure if that's the right place :/)
# [tantek] (note: "middle" is a layout/order specific label, not a semantic. in the past these same kinds of 100% Western white male format designers would have "first_name" "middle_name" "last_name", there's plenty of examples of bad old dead formats with that, programming examples in various "5 minutes to make your own social network!" type stuff etc.)
# Loqi rel-feed is the standard for linking to multiple (potentially alternative) h-feeds from a site's homepage using the code rel="feed" on those links https://indieweb.org/rel-feed
# Loqi feed discovery is a way to, given someone's home page, discover their feed or feeds that they publish https://indieweb.org/feed_discovery
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# aaronpk we just need one more consumer listed here. does Indigenous for android consume the "checkin" property? https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/15
# aaronpk I saw the screenshot of my checkin here and didn't see the map but I guess that's an old screenshot then? https://indieweb.org/Indigenous_for_Android
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "geocache" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "geocache is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek] aaronpk - /checkin should be added to PTD as well per http://ptd.spec.indieweb.org/#scope - can you file an issue there for that and if you have suggestions for where it should go in the algorithm as well?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "current thinking on read-status" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "current thinking on read-status is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "read-status" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "read-status is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "read-status" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "read-status is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# 
@techieV2 Wanna Federate the Web? Stop Using Silos for Signing In https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/use-indieauth-more (twitter.com/_/status/1101971605909958656)
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# [tantek] jacky, re: speech-friendly URLs, took me a while but I knew I'd said something about speakable URLs before. Apparently a while ago 😂 http://tantek.com/2013/104/t2/urls-readable-speakable-listenable-retypable
# [tantek] but somehow neglected to add it to /URL_design - there's no mention of "speakable" or "speech-friendly" on the wiki at all for that matter!
# [tantek] URL_design << http://tantek.com/2013/104/t2/urls-readable-speakable-listenable-retypable ( https://twitter.com/t/status/323487484216483840 ) (incorporate into the scattered thoughts on short URLs which are good for similar reasons, and cover the typing aspect)
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@t URLs should be readable, speakable, listenable, and unambiguously retypable, e.g. from print: http://tantek.com/w/ShortURLPrintExample #UX (ttk.me t4PV2) (twitter.com/_/status/323487484216483840)
# Loqi ok, I added "http://tantek.com/2013/104/t2/urls-readable-speakable-listenable-retypable ( https://twitter.com/t/status/323487484216483840 ) (incorporate into the scattered thoughts on short URLs which are good for similar reasons, and cover the typing aspect)" to the "See Also" section of /URL_design https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57649&oldid=54164
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