#dev 2019-03-01

2019-03-01 UTC
snarfed, [tantek], singpolyma, iasai, [schmarty] and drapetomaniac joined the channel
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gRegorLove
Made some improvements to indiewebify-me h-card validator, needs a review before merging: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/80
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Loqi
[gRegorLove] #80 Update h-card validator
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gRegorLove
I was surprised to learn even with Zegnat's massive h-card, he doesn't have a p-note (yet) :)
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jacky
lots of people I see who are looking to move off sites keep mentioning https://webflow.com/
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aaronpk
I'm not sure I understand the pitch "No credit card required. No trial period. Full design and CMS control."
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aaronpk
so I don't need a credit card but there's also no trial?
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aaronpk
Took a while to find info about export but this is good: "On the Lite, Professional, and Team plans, you can export your website and host it anywhere you'd like. "
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gRegorLove
Maybe it means you can use the trial as long as you want, only charged if you publish?
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gRegorLove
Pretty slick animations on there
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jacky
aaronpk: yeah lots of marketing talk in it
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jacky
updated the Elixir library with more docs and _finally_ put the logo in there https://hexdocs.pm/indieweb/api-reference.html
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jacky
looking for the transparent PNG tbh
iasai, gRegorLove, cweiske, [tantek], koddsson, barpthewire, KartikPrabhu and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks]
that is a problem in the winter, yes.
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[kevinmarks]
oops, replying to swentel about GMT offset 0
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@jgmac1106
↩️ One cool things for folks to know with the new writing clients and tools (they use something called micropub) and the social readers (using microsub) allow you to write in a mobile first/anytime manner and you never have to touch your CMS. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/2d6cwz)
(twitter.com/_/status/1101459666083692544)
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Zegnat
!tell gRegorLove My homepage design doesn’t really give me a nice location for a p-note :(
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel
move the name up a bit and fit it next to the picture if it's short?
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[Vincent]
Amazon is crazy. A Dev just sent me this screenshot. Guess how many <div> tags are wrapped around this <h3> ?
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[Vincent]
43.
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snarfed
released granary 2.0 and oauth-dropins 2.0, which remove Google+. https://pypi.org/project/granary/
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snarfed
switched to google sign-in in oauth-dropins; removed from granary altogether
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[schmarty]
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (93 in all channels)
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@blot__
↩️ There are a bunch of folks using Blot who microblog / use indieweb principles. Here's a guide to setting up webmentions: https://www.amitgawande.com/display-webmentions/ Please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions about this, or anything else
(twitter.com/_/status/1101512014185332736)
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petermolnar
[Vincent]: ever tried debugging a wix site?
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[tantek]
What is Blot
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Loqi
Blot is an open source blogging platform built by David Merfield that uses Dropbox to store your content https://indieweb.org/Blot
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://twitter.com/blot__/status/1101512014185332736" to a new "See Also" section of /Blot https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=57567&oldid=55064
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swentel
GWG_, looking at checkins again. What bothers me at the moment is that wouldn't be able to send a photo along in a checkin post via indigenous. So I'm really tempted to add more properties to the GeoUri
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swentel
in 'location' then.
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sknebel
sorry, missing context, but why wouldn't you able to do a photo in the checkin?
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GWG_
sknebel: I was about to ask the same.
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swentel
you can't upload when using json request
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sknebel
and you don't support media endpoints?
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swentel
yes I do
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swentel
but that's a two step thing, that's just, well, annoying
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GWG_
swentel: Only two steps on the backend.
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swentel
well, things can go more easily wrong there
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swentel
also, what if I want to add multiple pictures, that should be possible
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swentel
or maybe even a video and a picture in the future
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swentel
it becomes way to complicated, just because form encoded posts aren't supposed to be allowed to have nested properties
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swentel
(which I'm fine with)
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swentel
just thinking out loud, and get us out of the swarm thing :)
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swentel
which I don't even use anyway
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sknebel
for multiple photos you send them individually to the media endpoint
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[eddie]
Yeah, I find uploading multiple images or files to the media endpoint works great
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[eddie]
Then you just put all the urls for the files into the Micropub request
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GWG_
It doesn't have to be different in the UI. The app just needs to make multiple requests
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swentel
does the media endpoint have to return urls btw ?
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[eddie]
by definition
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[eddie]
There would be no other way for you to include the urls in the Micropub request
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swentel
right, it's in the location header right ? It would make it easier for me to use id's
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[eddie]
Yes, it's in the location header
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swentel
but that's how I'd see it from a drupal point of view of course :)
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[eddie]
how is an id easier than a url?
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[eddie]
they are both strings
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GWG_
swentel: You can return additional information in the body. I do
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swentel
because files are an entity in drupal, and they are a 'thing'. On an article for instance, an image is just a reference to a file.
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swentel
but that's how drupal thinks, so that's fine
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[eddie]
Gotcha. Yeah that should all be very easy from the Indigenous side. Depending on how Drupal is set up it might not be as easy from the server side
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GWG_
WordPress has a URL to attachment ID function I use for it. It takes the url and returns the file reference.
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swentel
yeah, I can do that too of course
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swentel
it's just more work :)
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swentel
on both sides
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GWG_
In theory, if the endpoint returns some sort of ID, the app should be able to send some sort of ID
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swentel
but is there a client that sends checkins, besides oys ?
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GWG_
That is an interesting question
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GWG_
I don't think there is
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GWG_
Which explains why checkins aren't moving forward
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swentel
oh, so it's oyc
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swentel
so known has interesting legacy code
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swentel
// This is legacy for form-encoded requests. Likely the only server sending this request is OwnYourCheckin.
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swentel
and then it looks for 'place_name' for instance
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GWG_
swentel: I think most people moved from OYC to OYS
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swentel
oooh, right
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GWG_
By the way, maybe both Indigenouses should be added to https://indieweb.org/Micropub/Clients#Implementation_status
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GWG_
This page doesn't even have Indigenous for Android
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swentel
and no checkin there :)
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GWG_
But it seems to need updating
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sknebel
I think micropublish does checkins too
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GWG_
sknebel: That's why I said the client page probably needs an update
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swentel
so yeah checkin is possible there
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swentel
but no media
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GWG_
I'm going to update the Micropub WordPress page to cover current capabilities on the server side. Probably overdue to do a little wiki gardening.
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swentel
of course, creating a venue first, and then sending a url could work as well
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swentel
hmm, too many options
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GWG_
swentel: This is why checkins are hard
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aaronpk
OYS cheats and sends a full venue h-card in every checkin
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aaronpk
I was always imagining a native checkin client would send just the local URL of the venue
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aaronpk
which it would know because of the venue query
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GWG_
Indigenous supports the geo query for venues, but it doesn't use the venue property in it yet.
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GWG_
Only the suggested location property.
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GWG_
Mostly because I haven't gotten to building the query yet.
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swentel
right, but that's a big step already too
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swentel
and a big burden for people wanting to implement that
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GWG_
swentel: I figure one step at a time. I am writing up what the Micropub endpoint I have can do on the wiki right now.
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[tantek]
and I just found a nasty bug with posting too far into the future (scheduled posts)
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swentel
GWG_, well, I'd love a step where I can simply use GeoURI :) That would make things go forward in no time.
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GWG_
swentel: I'm not sure how.
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GWG_
[tantek]: Oh?
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swentel
GWG_, additional properties in there. We already send 'name' now too, so why not just more?
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GWG_
swentel: Like which?
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GWG_
swentel: What would you add?
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swentel
GWG_, well anything listed at https://indieweb.org/Micropub#Nested_Microformat_Objects - except for geo
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swentel
if there's h=card there (which I would add in indigenous if you use the checkin form), I can move really fast
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swentel
and by fast, I mean, release tomorow
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swentel
of course, initially, I would probably just add a url field to begin with
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swentel
and gradually add more fields in the next steps
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swentel
but I want to get rid of the json, and the two step stuff
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swentel
that's what bothers me so much right now
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GWG_
swentel: Hard thing to work with
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swentel
GWG_, it's less beautiful than an object, sure
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sknebel
aaronpk: " the local URL of the venue" - i.e. if your site backed its endpoint by e.g. the swarm API, you'd generate local urls for venues from the api? would those be expected to be actual urls, or even resolve to something useful? (afk for a bit, but want to get the question out before I forget it)
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aaronpk
let's start with the checkin. i would expect a checkin to link to a human-readable URL that describes the venue.
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aaronpk
that URL could be a foursquare URL, but it could also be a URL on your own site
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aaronpk
or someone else's site
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aaronpk
right now my site links to foursquare.com URLs because I don't have my own local venue pages yet
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[eddie]
tantek What happened with your future scheduled post?
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[tantek]
it broke many other posts
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[eddie]
Oh, I thought it like might have become public too early or something. It actually broke other posts?
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[eddie]
That's strange
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[schmarty]
phew. i was worried you had been pulled into the future.
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GWG_
aaronpk: How are the Foursquare Venue API terms of service on that? It seemed to be against this usage.
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[tantek]
yes I have some timeline fixes to make so that altering the future doesn't break the present. I know that sounds backwards but that's what happened.
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[eddie]
swentel: be careful, sometimes moving fast, "really fast" ends up making bad decisions. I'd definitely continue to talk through some of your thinking here, for example with aaronpk who has put a lot of thought into this stuff
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[schmarty]
GWG_: can you point at the part of the terms that is against this usage?
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aaronpk
GWG_: I'm only using the venue name and linking to foursquare so I'm not really concerned anyway
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aaronpk
and can confirm that moving fast leads to not ideal solutions, as demonstrated by some of my own projects that I've had to very carefully make migration paths off of
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swentel
[eddie], maybe 'experiment fast' is better :)
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[eddie]
swentel Fair enough 🙂
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GWG_
https://developer.foursquare.com/docs/terms-of-use/overview - "Foursquare data may be kept for a maximum of 24 hours without being refreshed" - So, is storing the name a violation of that statement?
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GWG_
I'd only want to store the name myself.
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[eddie]
I tend to lock experimental features in the iOS version behind my url so that even if it ships with a feature if I'm not sure I want that feature public yet, I can safe guard it while testing it out
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swentel
Oh, I do that too :)
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[eddie]
I wonder if the spirit of that terms of use is in regards to a public app as opposed to a personal website?
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[eddie]
Like I think if I built an app that people used and I was using cached old data that would be bad
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[eddie]
hence the terms of use
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GWG_
[eddie]: I just factor in the fact that WordPress plugins could mean more than just me using it
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[eddie]
Sure, that makes sense
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aaronpk
in their examples they don't list the venue name
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aaronpk
"You may not cache or store any Foursquare places information (including tips, venue photos, check-ins) for more than 24 hours without refreshing."
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[eddie]
haha I was about to mention that aaronpk
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aaronpk
also "without refreshing" which means theoretically you could cache for longer if you keep it up to date
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aaronpk
but tbh i really don't get the sense that the venue name is something they're trying to protect
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GWG_
Terms of Use confuse me on all services.
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aaronpk
the intent seems to be around things like photos or tips which i understand why
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[eddie]
Yeah tips, photos and user data seems to be the focus
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[eddie]
all of which should be protected
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GWG_
Which don't concern me.
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[tantek]
which is quite sensible
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GWG_
I'm only concerned about name and location
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aaronpk
also this seems to be written for apps using user data vs someone personally storing their own checkins
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[eddie]
Because "who would store their own checkins"? Weird people... 😆
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aaronpk
so like arguably ownyourswarm should follow these rules and not store anything for more than 24 hours. but I don't get the sense reading this that they're trying to prevent someone from storing their own checkins.
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@jgmac1106
I have settled on a pattern for #edu407 #edu305 and #edu307 to post positive with webmentions, respecting student choice for syndication, but using native comments, that students may choose to publish, for more critical feedback. System works well. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1hLFxa)
(twitter.com/_/status/1101566484063678469)
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swentel
aaronpk, the photo on https://aaronparecki.com/2019/02/25/20/ ? Is that pulled in from swarm ? Or how did it get there ?
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Definitely eating here only because it's called Emojis 😆 https://aaronparecki.com/2019/02/25/20/photo.jpg
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GWG_
Okay, just expanded the Micropub WordPress page to cover what is currently supports
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swentel
oh, reading the docs, so I guess from swarm, and synced later
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[schmarty]
tries but fails to avoid bringing copyright law into this
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[schmarty]
place names and locations are facts and foursquare can't ask you not to keep them IMO
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[schmarty]
but then these are their terms of use and they can say whatever ridiculous thing they want
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GWG_
That's why I'm confused, [schmarty]
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snarfed
i'd strongly encourage you all to ignore the ToS for small q's like this
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snarfed
all of our usage is small enough that these big cos generally won't notice us at all
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snarfed
*especially* individual personal web sites
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snarfed
if in practice they don't care, the theoretical q doesn't really matter, at least to us
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GWG_
I will try to take that to heart
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[tantek]
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (93 in all channels)
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[tantek]
GWG, just don't make any mass-user scraping sites / tools and you're probably ok
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GWG_
I am always worried about the amplification effects of WordPress
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[tantek]
That's a good concern to keep in mind. So avoid any one WordPress site from becoming a mass-scraper of sorts
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GWG_
None of my plugins do anything but pulling data on a per-post basis
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[schmarty]
GWG_ your avatar seems to be 404 on (some) wiki pages: /The-Open-Graph-protocol#Indieweb_Examples
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GWG_
I keep trying to fix that and it keeps not working
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GWG_
I really need to just code a custom redirect for it
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aaronpk
swentel: that's a photo i took and posted on swarm, so I already own the copyright and am technically granting foursquare a license to use it, so i see no problem copying it back to my site
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swentel
aaronpk, oh, it wasn't about copyright, more figuring out if you edited the post on your site afterwards or not :)
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aaronpk
i agree with snarfed, best to just ignore stuff like that for personal use cases. now if you're building a service that's scraping a bunch of foursquare users' data and republishing it or something that's a different story and probably not okay
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[kevinmarks]
Dennis has always been in favour of other tools using foursquare venues and checking into foursquare too. I know they have got a lot more biz dev shaped recently, but the core power users get to edit venues too.
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[tantek]
what is a superuser
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Loqi
superuser is a privileged user on a site (typically a silo, like Foursquare) that has some admin abilities, sometimes different based on what "level" of superuser the user has been granted or has achieved https://indieweb.org/superuser
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[tantek]
what is a power user
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Loqi
Generations in the context of the IndieWeb refer to clusters of potential IndieWeb adopters in a series of waves that are expected to naturally adopt the IndieWeb for themselves and then help inform the next generation https://indieweb.org/power_user
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jacky
you know
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jacky
that naming approach might work
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jacky
power <-> average w.r.t users of the IndieWeb
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jacky
but it feels too binary / confining
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[tantek]
right, which is why there's /generations
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jacky
like what if someone's a prolific user but not a heavy dev of the web
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jacky
ah word
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jacky
I though that was being retired?
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jacky
what are generations
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Loqi
Generations in the context of the IndieWeb refer to clusters of potential IndieWeb adopters in a series of waves that are expected to naturally adopt the IndieWeb for themselves and then help inform the next generation https://indieweb.org/generations
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[tantek]
jacky, also note that "average" is nowhere on that page. No one wants to consider themselves average.
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jacky
hmm true
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jacky
I mean sometimes I do want to be but I understand lol
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[tantek]
similarly, "non-technical" is negatively framing, and is a sort of othering
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[tantek]
(preferably avoided)
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[tantek]
And I feel ya re: sometimes I do - if I place "average" in a trail race, I'm very happy 🙂