#dev 2019-03-06

2019-03-06 UTC
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Hey @chrisaldrich https://boffosocko.com Feel free to grab what we did in #edu522 we have an example of teaching on #IndieWeb WordPress for #pressedconf19. Plus the course templates and webmention badges have come so far since then: … https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/06/hey-chrisaldrich-feel-free-to-grab (twitter.com/_/status/1103094705661845504)
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GWG Does Triggering an Archive at archive.org make sense as a syndication target?
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jacky "Syndicate to archive.org"
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jacky hmm
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jacky I think so GWG
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GWG The process to do it matches the way I set up my POSSE
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jacky !tell swentel I don't know what changed but Indigenous for Android works with my site now with properly encoded JSON!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Jacky, it grows leaps and bounds
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jacky wow this is actually amazing
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jacky now I have to get q=source support for Koype
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GWG Which this?
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jacky I don't follow
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jacky also I _really_ do not want to 'parse' Twitter URLs or make that a thing in Koype
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jacky I'm _tempted_ to have an intermediate service like https://twitter.activitypub.actor/ that'd render a tweet in MF2 when I request so
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jacky (or just any page for that matter)
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jacky I guess I could use bridgy here
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jacky no granary
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snarfed granary if you have a twitter API token to give it
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snarfed bridgy otherwise
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#source-urls
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jacky very spartan! :)
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jacky but yup this is it
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jacky this actually opens up for 'URL parsing' now
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jacky if I make something in there that could match on a URI that I could even support Dat links
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jacky watches his brain explode
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jacky oh yeah
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jacky 'killer' feature lol
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[tantek] GWG, I suggest from a UX perspective to NOT build "syndicate to archive.org" because it is literally the opposite of Undo.
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[tantek] Especially don't build that for other people. I think UIs should be forgiving, and auto-immediately-syndicate-to-archive-org is totally unforgiving.
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[tantek] What I do is auto-archive my *previous* post when I post a new post, and I feel that's "good enough" in addition to giving me enough time to undo or edit to fix simple mistakes etc. before something is archived.
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[tantek] also I have a delay in my Atom feed since Atom consumers don't dependably show updates or handle deletes
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[tantek] jacky, I'm pretty sure folks have built various utility libraries/services for "parsing" Twitter URLs etc.
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GWG [tantek]: I can set a time delay
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[tantek] GWG, I just don't think it's worth it. Because then you'll be tempted to make the delay configurable, and then someone will just hurt themselves by making it unforgiving.
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[tantek] Part of the point of good UX design is to not give the user tools they will likely hurt themselves with
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GWG Interesting thoughts there
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[tantek] I believe [manton] thought through some of these issues too
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[tantek] What *is* worth doing automatically is archiving everything that a post *links to*
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[tantek] so any URLs *inside* a post, auto-internet-archive those
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[tantek] because that's a way of preserving what those URLs had at or close to the moment that the post was published linking to them
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GWG In the meantime, back to the drawing board
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mblaney hi indieweb
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aaronpk waves
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mblaney I've been going through the microsub api adding better support to dobrado, wondering about how to set the unread status of a channel?
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mblaney ie I think it's up to the user if they want a count or boolean on each channel?
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aaronpk yep clients are supposed to be able to handle missing "unread" properties as well as boolean and integer values https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Channels_2
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mblaney yes I'm wondering if the spec should say that when posting the channels action you can specify the unread type. The order method is very well defined, but doesn't mention updating unread type.
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aaronpk oh like when creating a channel?
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mblaney yeah I guess creating or updating a channel should allow specifying the unread type, otherwise I can't see where else it would be set.
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mblaney I
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aaronpk yeah that makes sense. there are some things that just get set out of band right now
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aaronpk or a server works just one way and doesn't expose that to clients
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aaronpk if you're going to let people choose the unread tracking type, then we also need a way to have the server tell clients which types it supports too, and choose a default
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mblaney ah ok. I've got a few differences between how my reader works already and what the microsub spec surfaces.
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aaronpk please document those differences on the wiki somewhere!
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aaronpk that's important for developing the spec further
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aaronpk i haven't wanted to make many more changes to the spec that aren't influenced by actual implementations so this is how that happens
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mblaney hmmm ok, maybe just on the page for dobrado for now.
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aaronpk sure
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GWG aaronpk: What other changes are you interested in exploring, out of curiosity?
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aaronpk right now just minor stuff, tightening things up, and anything that improves the app developer's experience
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aaronpk i want it to be really easy to build a microsub app, so that we can get more ios and android developers interested in building good experiences in this ecosystem
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GWG I would still like reply/like/etc contexts.
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aaronpk that's supported in the spec just not something that aperture does
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GWG aaronpk: It is?
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aaronpk oh yeah indicating whether a post has already been responded to (liked, commented, etc) is another big one
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GWG I missed that
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aaronpk pretty sure Together already renders it?
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aaronpk can't remember the details now
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mblaney I've added https://indieweb.org/dobrado#Brainstorming to cover Microsub differences, happy to clarify anything there if required.
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GWG Pausing from my storage problems to add support for swentel's new geo uri properties to Micropub
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jacky !tell [tantek] agreed: re parsing Twitter URLs, but I'd want to this to parse any non-MF2 URL and make it so (like how Bridgy can do it); but like even news sites like The Verge or other blogs that lean on other approaches
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed jacky: one of the big read-it-later services recently open sourced their entire content extraction engine. cleverdevil and maybe others mentioned it here recently. can't remember the name right now
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jacky readability?
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snarfed maybe?
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snarfed i expect there are a number of these, both open source and service
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snarfed ah, postlight / mercury. https://postlight.com/trackchanges/mercury-goes-open-source , https://github.com/postlight/mercury-parser
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jacky nice
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[eddie] What is a play?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "play" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "play is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] What is a listen?
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Loqi A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track, including concert recordings or DJ sets) or podcast that you have listened to https://indieweb.org/listen
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[eddie] What is a play?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "play" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "play is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] play is /game_play
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Loqi ok
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[eddie] What is play?
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Loqi A game play or simply play is a passive type of post used to publish a game (digital or otherwise) that you have played https://indieweb.org/play
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[eddie] There we go.
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jacky oh that kind of play
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jacky I think a play can be distinct
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[eddie] Haha yep
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jacky but eh, distinct will lead to definition
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jacky like a play of a TV show / video would be a /watch
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jacky or a song would be /scrobble
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[eddie] Interestingly I’ve never seen anyone refer to those as plays
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jacky tbh same but it's all "binary media"
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jacky and my programming brain is saying "all media has a method called 'play' on it"
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[eddie] I spent a little bit of tonight working on an importer script that will periodically tap the unofficial Nintendo Switch Parental Control API to get info on what games I’ve played, and download that data.
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[eddie] I have two things left to complete: one, it turns out Nintendo is using refresh tokens 😔 so my access token is already expired. So I need to add logic for refreshing my access toke
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[eddie] Second, I need to take the data retrieved and actually push it into my website as a play post
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[eddie] Pretty excited to get that working though! Especially since it’ll be automatic!
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jacky > parental control api
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jacky lol
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jacky that's actually kinda sick tho
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[eddie] Haha yeah. I looked everywhere wondering if there was a way to get historical play data. Kind of weird for it to be in the parental control app but I’ll take it!
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[eddie] For some people it’s about restricting how much their kids play, for me it’s about owning my data! Haha 😆
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[eddie] Had to do some man-in-the-middle on myself but 🤷‍♂️
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jacky such is life
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[eddie] Lol true
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[tantek] [manton] now that Micro.blog supports Microsub, is it worth adding Microsub to the Read via section of this table? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_microblogging_services#Posting_and_reading
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[jgmac1106] gwg of course has a post kind for play
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jgmac1106 so I have had to dig into the xAPI documentation for different grants…just starting to put together how much JSON-LD (though docs say JSON-LD is enough but you shoudl use RDFa if you want a better snapshot) is kinda like sentence diagramming in middle school, why data needs a subject, verb, and object…I will have to learn at a later date…hard to believe this the tool for data portability for any elearning, LMS, LRS, and
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jgmac1106 government website…..
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@flexbox_ ↩️ @WalterStephanie Depending on the project / audience but what about web mentions? https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1103281729106669570)
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@jackyalcine ↩️ I replied to this to your Mastodon account but I threw Wordpress out there largely because it's _so_ battle tested and despite the flak it gets, it gets the job done _really_ well. That + things like https://wordpress.org/plugins/webmention/ + https://wordpress.org/plugins/semantic-linkbacks/ + https://wordpress.org/plugins/syndication-links/! (twitter.com/_/status/1103282392226119681)
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[jgmac1106] Jacky if you are ready to pilot hosting I am working with the OER Foundation in Ghana. Was going to use Known but could do a Koype pilot. Be pretty cool
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@sim_previdente ↩️ @bortzmeyer @WalterStephanie Disqus or Webmentions ? :-) ( https://webmention.io/ ) (twitter.com/_/status/1103293305880756224)
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@jackyalcine ↩️ Disqus has a bad history of linking to ads without consent and having weak spam tools. Opting for Webmentions would give greater content and allows one to own their content! (twitter.com/_/status/1103293799218917376)
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sknebel swentel: I've been looking into using OpenStreetMap for venue lookup, would be interested in coordinating at least the interfaces (so if we both make small services that translate to the APIs that micropub endpoints can use them the same way)
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swentel sknebel, currently looking at http://geocoder-php.org/Geocoder/ to see if it has an api to get places
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Loqi swentel: jacky left you a message 12 hours, 53 minutes ago: I don't know what changed but Indigenous for Android works with my site now with properly encoded JSON!
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swentel jacky, didn't really change much in the micropub requests, just added more features :)
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jacky interesting
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jacky welp it looks great nonetheless!
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sknebel a basic option could be something that just produces the query output format, with IndieAuth auth, so the micropub endpoint can just pass on the request and response, only adding its token
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swentel sknebel, oh wait, are you talking about https://indieweb.org/Micropub-extensions#Query_for_Location.2FVenue - I'm be confused a bit now sorry :)
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swentel s/be/a bit
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swentel s/be// ratherr
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@bortzmeyer ↩️ OK, I get it. But Disqus is a service, WebMention is a protocol. Once you say "WebMention", next question is " which implementation" ? (twitter.com/_/status/1103299094708191232)
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@ohhelloana I forgot to announce to the world that on this evening I realised that I can now receive Webmentions (although I still have to style them). And to my surprise, I actually had some!! (twitter.com/_/status/1103299877977710592)
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sknebel swentel: hah, maybe I misunderstood what you were talking about in #indieweb for using arcgis etc
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sknebel I was thinking about making something people can easily plug into their micropub endpoints to make them support the venue lookup
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swentel sknebel, ah, right me too (besides other things). I initial idea was directly from indigenous (or any other app). But it's probably even easier to say, if you q=geo comes in, use that a service which does it for you.
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swentel seriously, my typing and spelling is horrible today, sorry :/
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sknebel happens :D
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sknebel I was also considering a model where the server tells the client "go use that service" (like a redirect), but then the authentication feels a bit messier
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swentel yeah, that might be tricky
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swentel sknebel, so, then I was looking at drupal modules, and it turns out there are modules that would allow me to hook into when q=geo comes in and get venues back, so I would get drupal support relatively easy out of the box.
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swentel however, that leaves out many other sites using different technologies
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swentel and it's tricky, so, a separate service would be sweet
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sknebel you'd know better how well you could make a minimal drupal application that just serves that one endpoint with auth? so a full drupal-based site could use it integrated, and others could run drupal just for that bit of functionality (or use a shared one)?
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@BriceCq Je me souviens des trackback. Je suis vieux. On dit WebMention maintenant, et c'est une spec officielle W3C https://webmention.rocks/ (twitter.com/_/status/1103308660577431552)
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sknebel (I got an annoying backlog of other things to do first too, and about to have a lot less time available...)
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swentel hmm, yeah, I'd probably setup a shared one, where everyone can login with indieauth
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swentel generate an api key for them, and then in indigenous, let them set it to shared.com/geo?api=api
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swentel that would go extremely fast
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swentel hehe, yeah, my backlog is full of too many ideas too :)
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jeremycherfas In general, in PHP, is it considered good, bad or indifferent to nest a function within a function?
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swentel jeremycherfas, hmm, what do you mean ? function foo() { function bar() {} }
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jeremycherfas Yes.
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jeremycherfas But I think I'm going to try and separate them. I think it will be easier
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swentel hmm, yeah, I think it's cleaner in a way
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swentel I'm also not even sure it would work nicely
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swentel to be fair, never tested it :)
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jeremycherfas Works better (for my understanding of what is happening) when they are separate.
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[tantek] yeah I'm going to say bad (in programming in general) to nest functions. flat++
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Loqi flat has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] uh oh do I have to now check both http and https permalinks at webmention.io ?
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aaronpk yeah i don't have a good strategy for that in webmention.io right now
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aaronpk suggestions welcome, but no promises on a timeline for changes
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[tantek] because my site serves at both http and https (for, reasons), it can accept webmentions on either
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aaronpk plus all the old ones
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aaronpk whoops didn't touch this issue for a whole year https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/92
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Loqi [keithjgrant] #92 Fetch WMs for aliased/equivalent URLs
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[tantek] only thing I can think of is an optional param on api to ignore protocol
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[tantek] with default true
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aaronpk hadn't thought of that but that might be a good option
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[tantek] assuming others have gotten webmentions on both http and https
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[tantek] OR - this may be even more minimal
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[tantek] allow the 'target' param to take protocol relative URLs then match any protocol for them
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[tantek] that would be the conservative way to do it, so any existing callers to webmention.io api would not be affected, and anyone wanting to explicitly check for target on a protocol-less URL could do so
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[tantek] no new param needed
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aaronpk also sounds reasonable
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[tantek] feel like that would be less work
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[tantek] if target starts with // then match any http/https
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aaronpk yeah i think internally the way that'd work is if it sees a URL with no protocol it will add both http and https protocols and query for both
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[tantek] alright I think I'll deploy with target="//..." so you have a live test case 🙂
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[tantek] I mean it's already broken so I'm not making it more broken
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aaronpk ha
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[tantek] and deployed. now querying webmention.io with a target="//2019/..." etc. permalink
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[tantek] when it works, you should see jacky's RSVP here http://tantek.com/2019/065/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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[tantek] aaronpk do you need a github issue for that?
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aaronpk that would be great
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aaronpk hopefully it will not take me a year to build
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aaronpk it feels like a small incremental piece so should be straightforward. and no DB schema changes necessary.
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[tantek] on it
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jacky [tantek]: tbf, I should probably drop that old RSVP and update it
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jacky ah I just removed my `q=source` logic so I can't edit any of my posts
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[tantek] jacky, no need to drop it because it won't help
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[tantek] I've already updated my site to require this: https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/122
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Loqi [tantek] #122 Webmention.io /api target= param should accept protocol relative URL to return http + https...
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[tantek] jacky, leave the RSVP as is (unless you're actually changing your RSVP 😭)
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[tantek] aaronpk, that contain enough details, use-case, test-case(s) to make it work?
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aaronpk perfect
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jacky ah okay
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jacky and yeah I'll be there
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[tantek] great!
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jacky largely seeing if I can get fortress to do page updates on the relme checking page for a 'light' demo
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[tantek] aaronpk, I'm open to alternatives of course, but this was the best/simplest/minimalist I could come up with quickly (which is also sometimes a good design constraint)
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[tantek] grows the API surface just a little bit, preserves all existing API
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aaronpk yeah this is the best suggestion so far
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[tantek] alright, also added direct link to http: only RSVP results so you can see what it *should* look like when its working
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[tantek] or at least should at least include, in case I get any https results
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[tantek] this is classic eating our own cooking. or is it taste-testing our own cooking?
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Actually going back to my webmention badges to finish out vHWC-Europe (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/22xpOl) (twitter.com/_/status/1103368575346192385)
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[tantek] 9 hours until Empowering Media shuts down all services in ~1hr at 21:01 PST.
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2019-03-06 8:01pm PST (#6510)
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aaronpk eep
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Okay one template file made for each class. This will make webmention badge issuance way faster per class. I will eventually have one HTML file per module already populated, then it is just a matter of swapping out links and removing HTML comments. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/wjX6d) (twitter.com/_/status/1103371141429772288)
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jacky I'm thinking more about nickname caches and what not
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jacky I almost wanted to store all of the "nicknames" but I realized that if a site knows all of the rel-mes for a provided site and if they were verified; you could do heuristics to find stuff like in [cleverdevil]'s gist https://gist.github.com/cleverdevil/17a5cea3cb8d81c43404de169720a8df
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[cleverdevil] jacky there is more up-to-date code here - https://github.com/cleverdevil/pseudonym
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[cleverdevil] Notably, https://github.com/cleverdevil/pseudonym/blob/master/pseudonym/lib.py
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[smerrill] that’s cool.
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blair1 Thanks for the help here on thinking about both webmentions (pointer to webmention.js) and getting off disqus. In the end I moved my blog/site to ghost.org from jekyll, and integrated webmentions there. For the disqus issue, I forked https://github.com/11ty/eleventy-import-disqus into https://github.com/blairmacintyre/plain-html-from-disqus to output simple HTML of the threaded comments. Since I only have a few hundred comments across ~150 posts,
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blair1 up each post by hand anyway to deal with jekyll -> ghost conversion (ugh), I'm inserting them in the post body and then hacked webmention.js to pull the old comment block down with the webmentions
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@til_mb A newly published Help page documents that which is needed for web and desktop apps to support IndieAuth: https://www.manton.org/2019/02/27/i-added-a.html (twitter.com/_/status/1103407659410227200)
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@til_mb In a newly published Help page developers can see that which is needed for web and desktop apps to support IndieAuth: http://help.micro.blog/2019/api-indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/1103421267812798464)
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GWG Evening
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GWG How do you handle a DRY issue?
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[schmarty] resists a moisturizer joke
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[schmarty] GWG: there are many ways to DRY up something you find too repetitive.
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[schmarty] care to share some specifics?
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@jgmac1106 Homebrew Website Club New Haven kicks off and it looks like I maybe flying solo this week. Gotta lot on my plate so that is fine, IWC New Haven planning, webmention badges, and tutorials for IWC Online. If any time left learn some PHP #nhv (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1PR15E) (twitter.com/_/status/1103431136888393735)
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GWG WordPress likes to store geodata in one place, but Micropub for WordPress also stores it under the name of the mf2 property. Wondering if I should remove one
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[jgmac1106] if you aren't writing it twice and losing time to DRY I would leave both, you never know iff a user wants a plugin that requires geodata in the normal way WordPress handles it
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GWG jgmac1106, I was thinking of not storing it in the mf2 location parameter
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GWG So map mf2 to WordPress except when there isn't one
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