#dev 2019-05-20

2019-05-20 UTC
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[eddie]
Yeah preferably you would not have p-listen-of.... I’m not sure of parser behavior though
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[cleverdevil]
I changed it so that now it uses h-entry for the containing <article> if there is a URL.
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[cleverdevil]
Then u-listen-of for the anchor tag.
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[cleverdevil]
Otherwise it uses the old behavior.
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GWG
h-cite, not h-entry, perhaps. Isn't the post an h-entry?
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jacky
+1 to h-cite
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[frank]
[jackjamieson] does Yarns already support API calls like Aperture does? I tried a quick test yesterday but got some 404-like errors. I’m not at my machine now, I can share more specifics later if you want. Or make a Github issue?
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GWG
[frank]: I think he prefers issues.
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GWG
[frank]: But what API calls specifically? If they are standard Microsub spec calls, it should work
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[frank]
Standard micropub spec, I’ll reproduce it later today.
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GWG
He would want to support that
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[Rose]
Is there a micropub format to create a listen post?
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GWG
Should be an h-entry with a listen-of property
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Zegnat
Are you asking for a specific CMS or in general?
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[Rose]
In general. I don't want yesterday's script to be CMS specific.
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[Rose]
And the URL of the item goes in the listen-of?
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GWG
It should, to match in reply to or like of
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GWG
Then any experimental properties you might want to add
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GWG
Like duration
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[Rose]
Perfect.
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GWG
It should work automatically for WordPress, not that I have checked
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[Rose]
Thanks to Saturday I now have a test instance of WP ;)
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GWG
On that note, going to go think about webmention while drifting to sleep
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GWG
Be back in a few hours
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[Rose]
Good luck with web mentions!
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[frank]
@GWG and [jackjamieson], it turned out to be a scope problem on my side. I updated my IndieAuth plugin and now I can select scopes per token. Which is awesome.
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[frank]
So my initial script works with any microsub server. Which to me feels pretty awesome and gives me more reason to continue and improve it.
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[frank]
First I need to update my NodeJS skills. As I am not a programmer on a daily basis, my knowledge on the language and design patterns faded out a bit.
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[tonz]
[frank] cool, so I might test it later with Yarns, to migrate my current RSS feeds into it.
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[tonz]
From your demo I understood you imported everything into a specific channel. Is there a way to specify channel upon import? Or should I import in badges into channels I want to have?
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sknebel
!tell cleverdevil,Eddie always feel free to ask Zegnat or me about "do these microformats look right"
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
I keep thinking about a micropub service for static sites that is similar to webmention.io - you publish, it stores it temporarily, allows it to be queried and deleted, or auto-delete in X days
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petermolnar
the security devil inside however tells me not to
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petermolnar
like really not to, because eventually, it will be used to transfer nasty things
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Zegnat
Yes. It'll basically turn into a micropub powered pastebin.
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[frank]
[tonz] For now you would have to manually add the channel ID in your .env file to run the script. It just dumps all your subs in this channel. So it misses the granularity you need for your circles. This will be added eventually ofcourse. But this is for later iterations.
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GWG
I'm going to be working on optimizing two sets of code that retrieve and process URLs at once.
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GWG
Apparently, my parsing code tries to extract so much information, it is slowing things down
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jgmac1106
!tell jeremycherfas the getting started with php guide in the Kirby documentation is one of the bteer beginner guides I have come across: https://getkirby.com/docs/cookbook/templating/php-templates many not use it for my site in the end but its turning into a great tool to learn PHP
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jackjamieson]
!tell [chrisaldrich] Thanks for the offer about documentation. I might just start writing it out and then ask you for a second set of eyes. You’re quite good at documentation so I imagine you might catch omissions or areas for improvement
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[jackjamieson]
[frank]++ Looking forward to trying your importer!
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Loqi
[frank] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (30 in all channels)
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[frank]
Thanks [jackjamieson]. It’s all very alpha and hardcoded still. But we’ll get there. On https://github.com/frankmeeuwsen/aperture-import you’ll find the first code that’s already somewhat working.
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[jeremycherfas]
That is good news [jgmac1106] Glad you found it.
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Loqi
[jeremycherfas]: jgmac1106 left you a message 1 hour, 13 minutes ago: the getting started with php guide in the Kirby documentation is one of the bteer beginner guides I have come across: https://getkirby.com/docs/cookbook/templating/php-templates many not use it for my site in the end but its turning into a great tool to learn PHP
[tonz], [Rose], [jgmac1106], KartikPrabhu, [Zegnat], cweiske, ingoogni, [calumryan], snarfed, gRegorLove, [tantek], Katharina, [frank], leg, jjuran, snarfed1 and [jeremycherfas] joined the channel
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[jeremycherfas]
[aaronpk] Can you please explain briefly how Resume with geofence works in Compass. I want to obscure some locations. Should I Resume with geofence when I am at that location?
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[tantek]
I wonder if [frank]'s request for being able to subscribe to Posts About ( https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-05-20/1558341051171500 ) is a solid practical use-case for a "link blog" style use of h-feed?
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Loqi
[[frank]] Hmm... I'd love a feed specific for https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb with new articles popping up
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[tantek]
I have vague recollections of [kevinmarks] explaining the two different distinct uses of RSS feeds/elements for link blogs vs. a feed of your blog
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[tantek]
right now we have h-feed for "feed of your blog" fairly well defined. What we don't have defined (e.g. for publisher / consuming app interop) is how you would use h-feed to represent / publish a link blog
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[tantek]
In particular the way RSS did it, you didn't need your own permalinks for the items
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[tantek]
the "link" element (IIRC) would 'just' point to the external thing you're linking to, not your own permalink
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[tantek]
particularly interested in folks who have long experience/history with how this stuff worked / works today(?), e.g. maybe [manton] knows
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[tantek]
what is posts about the?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "posts about the" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "posts about the is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek]
concrete example, I'd like to add h-feed markup to https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb such that it was well defined how to both consume it directly as a "link blog", as well as how to canonically convert it to the RSS feed equivalent of a link blog
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[tantek]
in order to solve [frank]'s use-case
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[manton]
I wrote a post a few years ago about external links in RSS. It's kind of long, but has some examples for how this is used and the problems. https://www.manton.org/2016/03/03/the-evolution-of.html
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[manton]
Mostly it's a usability issue because it's not consistently implemented in feed readers.
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[tantek]
this: "Good conventions for blogging have been at a standstill for years. "
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[tantek]
[manton] is it "close enough" that we could document the more common conventions across some/most feed readers?
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[manton]
Good question. I think it's worth revisiting. My main goal with that post was to discourage people from having feeds like this unless they really needed it to work that way.
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[tantek]
I understand the discouragement. And I think I agree in spirit, that is, encouraging feeds of permalinks back to your own site, instead of feeds of links to other sites.
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[tantek]
However, I think the "one page feed" use-case is strong enough to merit solving in a consistent and interoperable way.
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[tantek]
we're unlikely to put in the work to actually create permalinks for each list item
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[tantek]
however a feed of those links would be very useful, and [frank] has asked to follow exactly that!
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[tantek]
in addition, with a little microformats wiki templating, it could happen nearly automatically
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[tantek]
I'd like to re-use what RSS link blogs did rather than re-inventing something
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[tantek]
that's how I ended up here
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[manton]
Yes, that's an exception where it makes sense, I agree. When you have a list that is really just pointing elsewhere without blog-like commentary, etc. (Again, feed readers could handle this better, but that is worth documenting.)
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[tantek]
we can come up with a "best practice" for how a publisher could/should use h-feed for this
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[tantek]
similarly, if you know the RSS link blog best practice, we can likely get Granary.io to implement both halves so it can consume an h-feed link blog and produce a canonical RSS link blog
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[tantek]
then that just leaves documenting *which* feed readers actually handle that RSS link blog "correctly", praising them for it, documenting *what* they are doing in common that makes it work, and then encouraging other feed readers to recognize and treat such RSS link blogs accordingly
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snarfed
granary supports mf2 html input and rss output now, feel free to try and file issues
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[tantek]
I believe we can collectively, openly do each of these steps one by one, and get to a better point of convergence, even / especially with current feed readers
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[tantek]
snarfed, yes that's the support I was referring to
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[tantek]
I'm positing that there may be some specific details that we'd want Granary to follow for the h-feed linkblog to RSS linkblog feed conversion
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[tantek]
we could use the existing pattern of h-cite instead of h-entry to indicate the semantic of a linkblog post rather than a blog post
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[tantek]
and then file an issue on Granary to support recognizing an h-feed of h-cite(s) explicitly as an h-feed linkblog, and then do the special work (if any) to convert it to an RSS linkblog (per [manton]'s post / analysis of how one should do so)
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[frank]
Reading up on the conversation above re link-blog RSS feeds. I remember [manton]’s post as well, will have to re-read it. For instance Pinboard does it quite well. Their feeds redirect to the source directly instead of the Pinboard page. But looking at the source, it's all RDF, so different spec then RSS...
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[manton]
Looking at that "Posts about the IndieWeb" page, doesn't look like it's marked up as an h-feed yet, so Granary isn't sure what to do with it. (Unless I'm missing something.)
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[frank]
what is h-feed
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Loqi
h-feed is a microformats2 draft specification with a top level feed object to contain h-entry posts and optionally a common author https://indieweb.org/h-feed
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[tantek]
[manton] right it's marked up just with individual h-cite markup for the list items
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[tantek]
ok check this out: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb - ignore the top level h-entry - that's something we'll have to fix/remove when there's an explicit h-* class in the page. Check out the h-feed there with all the h-cite childern
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Loqi
Posts about the IndieWeb
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[frank]
Looks interesting [tantek] and should work for the usecase
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[frank]
Daring Fireball's feed (mentioned in Manton's post) actually has some interesting use of the <link>-element. Per item he actually has three. For instance his latest post has these three link-items in his feed:
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[frank]
<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://atoms.com/df" />
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[frank]
The link-element for alternate and related could be an interesting pattern for the usecase?
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[frank]
<link rel="shorturl" type="text/html" href="http://df4.us/rm9" />
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[frank]
<link rel="related" type="text/html" href="https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/05/18/atoms" />
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[tantek]
looks like "related" there really means permalink
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[tantek]
and shorturl is a permashortlink
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[tantek]
alternate looks like the thing being linkblogged
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[frank]
Yep, that's correct
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[frank]
In the end it's up to the readers how they implement it. The RSS 2.0 specs say link should point the permalink, where guid might be a way to link to the external URL.
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[manton]
Running the wiki page through Granary now, the RSS looks about like what I'd expect: <link> pointing to the external post.
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[frank]
Picking up the feed from Granary in my feedreader gives me exactly how I want it
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[tantek]
wait what this is already working for you now [frank]?
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[tantek]
that was just my attempt at a hack to try to work out how it *might* work (!!!)
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[tantek]
Granary++ amazing
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Loqi
Granary has 4 karma over the last year
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[frank]
Dropped it in Inoreader, works like a charm
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snarfed
aww warm fuzzies
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[tantek]
should we put an RSS button on the page with that link? 😂
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[frank]
Granary++
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Loqi
Granary has 5 karma over the last year
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[frank]
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 45 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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[frank]
tantek++
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Loqi
slow down!
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[tantek]
what icon should we use? Or just text link "RSS Linkblog feed" ?
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[frank]
Regular orange square RSS logo
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[tantek]
old school
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[frank]
I'm old school
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[frank]
I added one of my older articles and it picked up nicely
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[tantek]
since when does Granary turn an h-feed of h-cite(s) into an RSS linkblog?!? That seems like quite the hidden feature snarfed
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[frank]
I find it encouraging to see a simple fleeing thought transforming in a working solution within a few hours
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[tantek]
and I find it ... scary? concerning? 😱
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snarfed
granary rss support launched feb this year
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snarfed
primarily for podcast feeds, it includes all the necessary elements for itunes etc, but glad the rest works too!
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[tantek]
but seriously, when did you start parsing for h-cite?!?
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[frank]
Welcome to the internet! Small pieces loosely joined 😉
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[tantek]
right lol
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[tantek]
that was literally as easy as snapping together some LEGOs
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[frank]
I'm glad it worked out like this. Now I can go to sleep with the warm feeling I contributed to something on the internet today.
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[frank]
And I have a blogpost to write tomorrow. Nice.
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[frank]
One more thing, did you change anything to the wiki template [tantek]?
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snarfed
i don't think there's any explicit h-cite in rss, just nice reuse of existing support for AS1. (everything in granary goes through AS1.)
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sknebel
lol, hours later the surprise
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[tantek]
I didn't touch the wiki template [frank]
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[tantek]
all I did was add an explicit h-feed to the page, with p-name and p-summary
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aaronpk
[jeremycherfas]: the "resume with geofence" feature is an experiment in battery saving. compass isn't meant to have any privacy features because it's something you run yourself and can choose how to expose that data publicly when you want
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gRegorLove
Posts about the IndieWeb mf2 feed is okay in Monocle, too. Headline with the date permalink as the external link. No author name though.
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gRegorLove
Oops, author name is there.
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gRegorLove
above the headline. Nice.
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GWG
Catching up
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GWG
Makes me want to check my feeds
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