#dev 2019-06-06

2019-06-06 UTC
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I have been teaching the last four years using #IndieWeb building blocks, these are all existing w3c recommendations or specs. The coolest tool is probably the use of webmentions. #apereo19 (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1xAIdV) (twitter.com/_/status/1136448339141169153)
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@fluffy New post: Chatter: Re: Webmention support for static sites https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/8695-Re-Webmention-support-for-static-sites (twitter.com/_/status/1136449914194595840)
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@tripticonomicon Re: Webmention support for static sites: http://bit.ly/2MvWyyQ (twitter.com/_/status/1136532998327865344)
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@Kajrietberg Met Zapier wordt er nu elke dag een POST request afgevuurd naar mijn @Netlify account zodat er een build wordt getriggerd waardoor Webmentions die binnengekomen zijn worden getoond. (twitter.com/_/status/1136547962627211264)
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[jgmac1106] https://medium.com/@decentralized.identity/the-did-dilemma-when-is-an-identifier-decentralized-9c2c68433b67
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[jgmac1106] Can you be a spec without any actual tech?
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rhiaro does that article say there's no tech
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rhiaro ?
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rhiaro I don't feel like engaging much on this, but since I happened to see that message and in the interest of participating in the global fight against misinformation: there is tech.
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jgmac1106 much more an expert than most of rhiaro, I just lurk in the credentials community group and I am not in the veriefed claims working group…and yes I did show my bias a bit towards DNS
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jgmac1106 but I have been in the badges space since we started it at Mozilla…see ideas come and go without anythign coming to fruition for so long
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jgmac1106 I don’t know of many DID providers I could use right now or recommend to people…I just like a tech before spec approach …so instead of getting bunch of folks together to design the perfect car…let bunch of people make cars and then coalesce around what is working….plus the vibe in group has not been that inclusive, tensions been running high
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jgmac1106 also not so sure decentralized identifiers are the best approach to fighting global misinformation
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jgmac1106 The medium article WAS really good, I was more referring to the action plan by the Community Group: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2019May/0002.html
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jgmac1106 what happens when you discuss same thing in three different Slack channels and IRC, if I minimized anyone’s works or projects I am sorry. Everyone has shared values. I should have focused there first
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jgmac1106 but rhiaro got so sick of years of open badge spec building just to see everything abandonded and then watch everyone go gaga for blockchain badges..I just walked away and started working on webmention badges: https://jgregorymcverry.com/webmentionbadgespressedconf19.html I have no problem assigning credibility at the DNS level
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Webmention Badges #PressEd19Conf https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/service/web/imageproxy/aHR0cHM6Ly9wcmVzc2VkY29uZi5vcmcvd3AtY29udGVudC91cGxvYWRzL3NpdGVzLzIvMjAxOS8wMS9wcmVzc2VkLTIwMTkucG5n
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jgmac1106 Word is bond, that is where my trust and relevancy should come from. i am my url
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rhiaro the work I have seen on the DID stuff is not at the indieweb sort of level of the stack. I know around here that means it doesn't exist.
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jgmac1106 to me exist means n>1 using it in the wild
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rhiaro what is in the wild
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "in the wild" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "in the wild is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jgmac1106 but I did get seriously jaded by the OBI Spec experience…but that was mroe Mozilla not W3C..still to work on something for years and have it handed off to a members only org…and then have members of said org file a patent using all openly licensed standards
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rhiaro well maybe it is all garbage, what do i know
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jgmac1106 I am also new to world of specs from not just a strictly non techincal contributor…still just barely technical…for me in wild is not on staging and opn someone’s production server being used by someone
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jgmac1106 stop selling yourself short..you did right a dissertation on distributed identites
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jgmac1106 but that is kinda what drew me to the IndieWeb approach..I didn’t have to waste time on community calls editing white papers for stuff someone would never build…folks just build stuff and when ideas stick folks add it to the spec…I really love this design approach
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jgmac1106 well I have to get the kids to school….you should join the credweb community group…though it is the same cast of characters you been hanging with since MIT
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rhiaro it is a good approach. people are building stuff in the credentials cg too
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rhiaro I am in the credweb cg
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jgmac1106 I will check to see if I am in credentials…I stepped away from verified claims…bc it seemed every other day was someone pushing their biz dev plan for blockchain credentials…no problem with blockchain (well I do but wasn’t reason I left) it was buy my idea day in and out
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jgmac1106 i am also really scared of all the industry attention…and then we have xAPI coming for everyone …and then that scared me as it is Department of Defense funded and then that made me all paranoid thinking activity stream, is just subject, verb, object…and reinforces an English only web on the back end…
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jgmac1106 …and maybe that was a doD goal to ensure continued dominance of US on infastructiure…I did say it was paranoid
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jgmac1106 well hope to catch you at the next f2f meeting….though I would be remote, doubt I can afford TPAC in Japan
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rhiaro I will not be in Japan
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jgmac1106 I figured giving your ethics around carbon and travel
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jgmac1106 well have a wonderful day..and glad to see your six month check ins becoming for like once a month, your voice too important to not be heard
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GWG I will second that
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[grantcodes] Hmm my bridgy backfeed isn't working for certain posts anymore because I don't include everything in my main feed now 🤔
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[grantcodes] Looks like rel=feed is the solution
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[grantcodes] But I don't really want my firehose feed to be my main feed for readers and whatnot
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[jgmac1106] Why I love static or almost static homepages
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[jgmac1106] Then you can have different pages for different feeds and people pick and choose
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sknebel [grantcodes]: could ask snarfed about a bridgy-specific rel or sth like that
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[grantcodes] I could. I should probably actually try some stuff and see what happens first
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snarfed [grantcodes]: trying to understand your bridgy rel=feed concern
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snarfed are you worried that if you don't have a rel=feed now, and you add one with your firehose, readers will discover it and use it by default instead of your home page?
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petermolnar [grantcodes]: I had the same issue, I ended up adding <link rel="feed" title="petermolnar.net feed" href="http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A//petermolnar.net/feed/" /> where https%3A//petermolnar.net/feed/ is my RSS feed
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petermolnar because I don't have an mf2 firehose
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kisik21 So. What if my frontend renderer and Micropub endpoint are on different machines? What are the ways to place a media file to it? I see some possible ways:
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Loqi kisik21: Zegnat left you a message 2 weeks, 1 day ago: No I don't use any fancy http/2 features. It is http/2-only as a joke.
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kisik21 1. Media endpoint on renderer server
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kisik21 2. Shared filesystem (NFS?)
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[grantcodes] snarfed: Yes what you said. In reality it is unlikely to be a major issue
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kisik21 3. Media endpoint additionally serving as static server
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[grantcodes] I'm also interested in what would happen with multiple rel=feeds with bridgy and readers. It's probably documented somewhere how they should be handled
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[grantcodes] kisik21: What parts are separated? Sounds like it is more to do with your storage than micropub?
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kisik21 I
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kisik21 grantcodes: I am currently in the planning stage but I'm planning to separate the renderer from Micropub (they're communicating via HTTP and MF2-JSON) and possibly the media endpoint from Micropub
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kisik21 The question is how to handle static media serving efficiently
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kisik21 it's like <nginx>-<renderer>-<micropub>
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kisik21 and I'm not sure where to place media endpoint
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Zegnat Some of the options you mentioned, kisik21, are exactly why media-endpoint gets to be a completely separate URL: in case you want to host it separately from the rest of the backend :)
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[schmarty] kisik21: i have my micropub media endpoint running as a separate service which serves on its own domain. rather than having my renderer touch those files, it generates URLs for an image proxy, which resizes them based on URL params.
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kisik21 So I could have the media endpoint double as a static asset server? Hm, feels nice enough
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kisik21 Especially because I could still use HTTP/2 pushes if I proxy it through my nginx
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[schmarty] working to flesh out indieweb.org/image_proxy now
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[schmarty] what is Cloudinary?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Cloudinary" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Cloudinary is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] Cloudinary is a hosting and management service for images and video which can be used as an [[image proxy]]. https://cloudinary.com/
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Loqi ok
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[schmarty] :crossed_fingers: c'mon kaja, did i do it right?
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[schmarty] looks like i did not.
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[jgmac1106] Ooh looking for video solutions that aren't YouTube or don't require CC license... Thx
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[schmarty] jgmac1106: cloudinary has a pretty good free tier for images, but i think you'd hit the quota pretty fast doing video.
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[jgmac1106] Just been uploading to an S3 bucket for now
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[jgmac1106] I use internet archive... But it's for my kids video. I don't want to force open license on them
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kisik21 [jgmac1106]: What's the problem with just hosting the video on your own server? Too much bandwidth? Want to process videos?
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[jgmac1106] Upload time and space
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[schmarty] some details added to indieweb.org/Cloudinary for how i use it.
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[tantek] credweb CG != credentials CG
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[tantek] Ignoring a post about a supposed *decentralized* technology on Medium
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[tantek] the "there is no tech" suspicion comes from the fact that posting on your own website is *much* easier than building new powerful tech, therefore if you are not even posting on your own website, the claims of any new powerful tech are likely false
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[tantek] thus presumption of "there is no tech"
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[tantek] kisik21, do you know of real world examples of people hosting video on their own servers?
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[tantek] re: static hosting, this is a very indieweb article: https://csswizardry.com/2019/05/self-host-your-static-assets/
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[tantek] what is static hosting
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Loqi Static site generators are programs that take a set of flat text files on disk and transforms them into a set of static html files ready to be served by a standard web server, or some variation of this example https://indieweb.org/static_hosting
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[tantek] hmm
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[tantek] I guess that's close enough
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aaronpk Not really, since that's talking about hosting assets regardless of whether the rest of your site is static
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[tantek] hah I almost hit return on the <<
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[tantek] what is hosting
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Loqi Web hosting can be the primary regular cost in maintaining an IndieWeb site; this page lists several options from free on up depending on your publishing needs, like a static, shared, private, or dedicated server https://indieweb.org/hosting
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[tantek] hosting << 2019-05-31 [https://csswizardry.com/2019/05/self-host-your-static-assets/ Self-Host Your Static Assets] <blockquote>… you should self-host all of your static assets, forgoing others’ CDNs/infrastructure. […] disadvantages of hosting your static assets ‘off-site’, and the overwhelming benefits of hosting them on your own origin.</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "2019-05-31 [https://csswizardry.com/2019/05/self-host-your-static-assets/ Self-Host Your Static Assets] <blockquote>… you should self-host all of your static assets, forgoing others’ CDNs/infrastructure. […] disadvantages of hosting your static assets ‘off-site’, and the overwhelming benefits of hosting them on your own origin.</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /web_hosting https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=62169&oldid=60472
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Zegnat [schmarty]: I think that definition should have been auto-linked by Kaja … ping sknebel
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sknebel indeed, not sure why it didn't trigger
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aaronpk better
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rhiaro I can buy the "if you are not even posting on your own website" arguement if the "new tech" being developed is for posting to your own website, but the things being developed by people in the credentials cg are not for that so that logic doesn't follow for me. Not everyone has the time or inclination to post to their own website (or even have a website) even if they are web devs, let alone people working with totally different stacks on different
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rhiaro things.
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[jgmac1106] I think kanani been working on DID and IndieAuth bridges... As long as we focus on shared values the tech outcome isn't as important
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sknebel rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] In fact I think [aaronpk] been having huge impact at the Idenity workshops. Seeing much of the ideas in those sessions spread in both communities
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rhiaro I wasn't aware kaniini was doing DID stuff, I thought they were doing litepub/activitypub projects
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[jgmac1106] I could be mixing it but I thought DID came up, though a lot of crossover in all the decentralized spaces
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[jgmac1106] @rhiaro and I know it is a centralized service but most academics have registered their ORCID
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rhiaro what does orcid have to do with it?
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[jgmac1106] Just a psuedo example of how folks combine an identity service with or without personal websites
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[jgmac1106] Sorry if it was off track. Just came to me in terms of comparing DID and ORCID... With decentralization being differentiator
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rhiaro csarven made a PR to orcid that lets you put your LDN inbox, activitypub outbox and a link to personal storage in the profile
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@JmacDotOrg Updated this library to handle a strange edge-case after one of you sent me a couple of technically well-formed but really oddball webmentions. (Oh, I’ll be in touch…) (twitter.com/_/status/1136673687627796487)
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Zegnat Does anyone know some code for dynamic word clouds? Where you can continuously feed it data and it will resize / refit the words?
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[kevinmarks786] I think you could do that with this one: https://www.jasondavies.com/wordcloud/
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[kevinmarks786] https://github.com/jasondavies/d3-cloud
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Zegnat It doesn’t seem to do the dynamic updates. Though someone seems to have shared their implementation in the issues there
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[kevinmarks786] I thought it added a word at a time?
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Zegnat Maybe? But it doesn‘t support updating
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Zegnat I have a running feed of incoming vote results, and I would like the cloud to transform based on the results (expanding, growing the terms that win)
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jacky so I want to make something to "backport" my images from Instagram to my site
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jacky figured it'd be something like "import archive and repost using micropub"
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jacky but I also have some stuff from ownyourgram
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jacky I didn't want to duplicate stuff so I figured just querying for all of the photos on my site and checking if any of the syndication links are ones pointing to ones in the archive that it'd be okay
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jacky is spitballing here if anyone else has thought of this
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snarfed yeah there are lots of historical attempts at silo backfill. https://github.com/neotoma/ , https://github.com/snarfed/freedom , etc
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jacky what is backfill
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Loqi backfill is the action of importing all your past posts, typically from a social media silo, into your own site https://indieweb.org/backfill
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snarfed (more broadly: perkeep, thinkup, etc)
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jacky what is thinkup
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Loqi ThinkUp was a silo (at thinkup.com) that analyzed activity on social networks like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter https://indieweb.org/ThinkUp
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snarfed https://github.com/cleverdevil/ditchbook
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Loqi [cleverdevil] ditchbook: Move your Facebook data over to your own website using Micropub
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[kevinmarks786] wonder if this is worth a look for private posts: https://twitter.com/LeaKissner/status/1136626971566149633
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Zegnat does that thing again where he tries to emulate table design with flexbox but keeps failing
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[tantek] rhiaro, posting to your own website is stand in for "decentralized walking" as a prerequisite for someone claiming to understand decentralization sufficiently to invent a new form of "decentralized skipping and jumping"
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[tantek] it's literally trivially now with 1) buy a domain name (trivial cost - all these people have vanity smart phones), 2) join micro.blog and setup your domain there
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[tantek] if someone doesn't see the value in doing at least that little bit of actual DOING and would rather *only* TALK on email lists / Medium / Twitter, then that's a valid criticism of their likely lack of DOING anything else
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[tantek] heck posting on your own site is now so easy that it's more like "decentralized crawling"
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[tantek] I reject the "totally different stacks" excuse. This is one web, per W3C TAG ethical principles: https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/ethical-web-principles/#principles
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[tantek] what is ORCID
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Loqi ORCID or sometimes ORCHID iD is a nonprofit organization and web service helping researchers, scholars, and innovators to be uniquely identified and connected to their contributions and affiliations, across disciplines, borders, and time https://indieweb.org/Orcid
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[tantek] [kevinmarks786] if you think that's "worth a look for private posts", feel free to add it to /private_post#Brainstorming !
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[tantek] The other (perhaps larger) problematic aspect of folks (especially technical folks) posting their "decentralized" ideas/promotion/marketing exclusively (or even primarily) on Medium / Twitter / FB etc. is that by doing so they are either ignorant of or deliberately neglectful of silo *social harms* that any ethical approach to decentralization should be *actively* seeking to change / solve / reduce / shift away from.
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aaronpk ^^ this is the more important aspect IMO
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[tantek] So even if their ideas have *technical* merit, the tone-deafness of posting on silos means they likely have not considered (or are willfully neglecting) the far more important *social merit* of such ideas, and that is a good reason to filter them out or at best deprioritize them
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[tantek] yes I'm saying it's 2019 and and those with technical ideas MUST consider (and *act* consistently with) the social (political, environmental, etc.) ideals & impacts of those ideas
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[tantek] and that not doing so is sufficient reason to be ignored, deprioritized, or for the advocacy and development of alternatives which actively compete (and replace) such ethically bereft technical approaches
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[tantek] I'm feeling another talk outline coming on.
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[tantek] [aaronpk] what I really came back here for is during your frustration with the RSVP failure you saw, you noted a desire to be able to RSVP via some form of plain text expression — this is something I have worked on and want to develop further
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[tantek] [aaronpk], in particular you may be interested in: https://indieweb.org/rsvp#Text_Design and https://indieweb.org/rsvp#POSSE_to_Twitter and https://indieweb.org/rsvp#Backfeed_from_Twitter
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[tantek] I would appreciate your input on those
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[tantek] I want to make RSVPing in "plain text" work, in particular on Twitter (as replies to my Event POSSE tweets), and using that as a basis, expanding to perhaps any Webmention sender
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aaronpk that makes sense
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[tantek] so yes, your itch is accurate, I share it, and have been trying to scratch it for years. work with me on this and maybe we can make it happen.
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Zegnat [kevinmarks786]: I did more testing, that d3 word cloud lib is not dependable, it will not always render all words if it felt it couldn’t fit one in
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rhiaro posting on medium annoys me too, and I agree from an indieweb perspective it seems problematic. But to a bunch of these people it's DNS that's the problem - they consider it centralized - so medium.com or some other domian, it's all the same evil to them. Just like how indieweb people also post to twitter for discovery purposes, posting on the web is a necessary evil to them at this stage I guess
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rhiaro if I had a domain that could get yoinked by the government (eg. like .eu domains could for brits after brexit) I might feel the same
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rhiaro as usual I'm sitting in the middle of people arguing about what's good enough (decentralized 'enough' in this case) and hoping to be able to do something that will make some of the less webby DID stuff play well with the current web, or maybe I'll burn out and give up.
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rhiaro seeing people who ostensibly want the same thing sit around and argue that each others' approach is not good enough or even harmful, same old same old as socialwg at a different part of the stack
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rhiaro often questioning why I let myself get pulled back into this game
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sknebel rhiaro++ well said - while I get using such "rules" as initial yardsticks other projects work from different angles, so it isn't surprising they prioritize some things completely differently (and I sometimes wonder how much of the interactions is just based on stuff that happened years before I touched this space)
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jacky it looks like it's a "barrier to initial effort" kind of thing
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sknebel I get annoyance with projects that appear to be more talk than practical use, and like that focus here, but I don't like it if it becomes a blanket shutdown argument. Even if people are "doing it wrong" in my opinion their work might be worth a look
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rhiaro sknebel there are literally people saying in complete earnesty that allowing https identifiers is not only not decentralized, but actively dangerous and a slippery slope right back to the silo problem we have right now. They're working on things that are essentially invisible to people with the indieweb-or-die mindset. If all you care about is the web, that's fine, but it's annoying to bad mouth other tech just because it sin't what you care about.
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jacky ^ I saw that argument somewhere
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jacky I _think_ on Mastodon
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sknebel I get the question about DNS all the time at IWCs
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jacky it's definitely a question of how much of the Internet do we want to take back
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jacky take back can be "run ourselves", "run communally" etc
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[tantek] there's definitely *several* groups that want to just burn it all (the internet) down and build their own
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[tantek] sknebel, those are useful framings. both "annoyance with projects that appear to be more talk than practical use" and "don't like it if it becomes a blanket shutdown argument" but more from a social perspective than technical
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[tantek] I disagree with "their work might be worth a look" only from the perspective that there is TOO MUCH ALREADY that "might be worth a look" so either you heavily filter and prioritize, or you get stuck endlessly reacting to the latest talker's ideas.
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[tantek] The "doers over talkers" filter is a very effective way of seeing who is actually building things that are even remotely usable *today*, that they *are using themselves, today*, and thus may be at least remotely practical.
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sknebel there's also a difference between publicly declaring something as "not interesting" vs making the personal prioritization
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[tantek] There are more white papers being produced faster than your time available to "take a look"
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sknebel e.g. I remember getting into an argument here about the beaker browser folks (who I hope most will agree here do interesting work) because they posted on Twitter instead of having their microblogs on their personal dat sites
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aaronpk This is why I just ignore things instead of make comments about them
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sknebel that's far from "just white paper" land
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[tantek] skenbel, right, and since that argument, there's been outreach and bridge-building with the Beaker browser folks because it turns out we have some highly aligned principles, like UX first, and use what you make
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jacky aaronpk: lmfao
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[tantek] and it turns out when you focus on UX, and building practical things, you end up prioritizing work / time on that instead of plumbing
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jacky I actually laughed out at that lol
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aaronpk :D
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jacky I imagined a horse with blinders on
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[tantek] and you end up with similar evaluations of needlessly complex approaches: https://unwalled.garden/docs/why-not-rdf 🔥
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[tantek] there was zero collab on that. Beaker browser folks independently came to very similar conclusions/criticisms as many here and previously the microformats community came to
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aaronpk I do like to occasionally take off my blinders and see what's around. At IIW last year i let myself go to all the "intro to DID/blockchain" sessions with no expectations, just to actually learn how they're approaching things
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[tantek] 🍿
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aaronpk Let's just say I now know where to prioritize my time at future IIWs
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[tantek] 🤔
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sknebel if one of you two speaks it's also the extra effect that it quickly turns into "the indieweb thinks", which again is if you get the chance to talk to people about that easily to correct, but you don't always get that
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sknebel (in weaker forms of course also applies to others, so I try to frame things along the lines of "my opinion", "an opinion I know multiple people here share", "more or less consensus" in such discussions)
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jacky does anyone have a link to that medium post in question?
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jacky is very curious
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[tantek] sknebel, you make good points
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[tantek] jacky I think it's the most recent Medium link in scrollback in this channel
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jacky scrolls
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[tantek] (or today's log)
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jacky chat.indieweb.org ftw
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-06-06#t1559817089402200
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Loqi [[jgmac1106]] https://medium.com/@decentralized.identity/the-did-dilemma-when-is-an-identifier-decentralized-9c2c68433b67
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jacky ty!
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[tantek] posting to silos causes real harm now (tons of citations, see my most recent talk), posting to https does not (lots of trickledown/snowball effect hypotheses)
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[tantek] reducing posting to silos is reducing actual harm now outweighs work on theories about how boiling the internet may solve problems in the future
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@fluffy New post: Chatter: Re: Webmention support for static sites https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/6968-Re-Webmention-support-for-static-sites (twitter.com/_/status/1136738076255035395)
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[tantek] also, since I'm still annoyed about this, I'm particularly annoyed by the "throw everything today away and build a grand new future/protocol/URLscheme tomorrow" crowd because it's an exceptionally over-privileged attitude
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[tantek] yes, while you're building your grand re-imagining of the internet, real people are getting stalked, harassed, threatened, hurt. real democracies are being subverted, real environmental crises are being subverted.
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sknebel jacky [fluffy] https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/8695-Re-Webmention-support-for-static-sites <- at the bottom is a link to a post by jacky that's broken - not sure on what end what went wrong?
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sknebel fair point
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[tantek] s/subverted/censored
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rhiaro haha that works all kinds of ways. while you're tinkering away with your website real people are getting stalked, harassed, threatened, hurt. real democracies are being subverted, real environmental crises are being subverted.
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rhiaro everyone thinks their work is gonna solve this stuff
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[tantek] rhiaro go watch my most recent talk. your analogy doesn't fly
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jacky sknebel: frick; I know why this happens
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[tantek] we are actively enabling people to move off of the causes of getting stalked, harassed, threatened, hurt
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jacky !tell [fluffy] hey can you give the URL that sent this webmention to https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/8695-Re-Webmention-support-for-static-sites
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] rhiaro, "gonna solve this stuff", no one claimed that. we're helping people at least help themselves and reduce the harm they themselves are enduring right now
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[tantek] not "gonna solve", are solving, as people switch
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[tantek] and not "this stuff" (implying globally) - no one is claiming that's solved
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[tantek] but if we can reduce harm at least on individual levels, that's at least an immediate benefit people feel, and empower them to further solve more problems.
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[tantek] contrast with DID, nothing DID has helped, is helping, or will help solve any of those harms on even individual levels now, or in the foreseeable future.
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rhiaro if it is true that indieweb stuff can provide the benefits of social media without the harm, what about that means nobody is allowed to work on alternative technologies or longer term possibilities?
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rhiaro why can't we have both?
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[tantek] they're allowed to work on impractical things. it's just an exceptionally hyper-privileged choice to do so. and we're allowed to call it out as such.
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[tantek] practical alternatives are cool and useful for lots of explorations / collaborations. like Beaker Browser
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[tantek] longer term possibilities? anyone claiming / daring to think "longer term" should start with their answer to climate crisis. LMK when you see them doing so.
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rhiaro okay if you think it's impractical, it's the going around stating it as proven fact that bugs me. Obviously the people working on it aren't finding it that way. Different priorities, as was said before.
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[tantek] other way around
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[tantek] due to the lack of facts it's not practical
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[tantek] i.e. lack of using such grand systems to post instead of silos etc
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rhiaro what if grand systems aren't publishing platfors
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rhiaro ohh so indieweb short term fixes make the most sense because we're all going to burn before anything else sees fruition :)
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[tantek] if you're not reducing harmful behaviors (reinforcing the silos) then what exactly is the practical point?
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rhiaro that's one way to look at it
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[tantek] yes it's misprioritization to plan for / work on things that'll be useless post climate crisis
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[tantek] it's also a crawl, before you walk, before you run pushback on that "what if aren't publishing .." argument that people keep making
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[tantek] if you're unable to decentralized crawl (post plain text on your own website instead of twitter), then by what shred of credibility should anyone pay any attention to you that your decentralized running theory is worthy anyone's attention?
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rhiaro this is going in circles, I'm out
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jacky I guess that it depends on what's more important to either party: the content or the identify _to_ said content
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[tantek] jacky, when where you post the content reinforces toxic systems, then it matters
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Zegnat I have a hard time commenting on this, because I do not actually know whether the articles I may read on Medium about things like Aether, Scuttlebutt, and Dat are syndications or not. I am not looped into those networks so I do not know. If they are merely syndications for discoverability, sounds to me like they are doing it right: they are using the network they create, and syndicate out for visibility, just like the indieweb.org
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Zegnat wiki recommends
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[tantek] if they were "merely syndications for discoverability" they would have a link to the original post, on whatever protocol / system
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[tantek] otherwise there's no discoverability
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aaronpk relatedly, at what point should we advocate *completely stopping* syndicating content to these companies who actively make money from promoting toxic content
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[tantek] what is original post
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Loqi An original post link is a hyperlink from a POSSE copy to its original indieweb post https://indieweb.org/original_post
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[tantek] aaronpk, last August, to FB, when they shutdown their API
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[tantek] and we can have different timelines for the different services based on how toxic their behavior is
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[tantek] Zegnat, Scuttlebutt community has a lot of overlapping principles as well, and definitely worth gaining more understanding about.
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[tantek] what is a singleton
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Loqi singleton is in the context of the indieweb, or decentralized web in general, a shared (effectively centralized) data structure (like a blockchain ledger) or database (like the consequence of assuming a specific hashing algorithm) being used by (and thus a limitation of) an otherwise seemingly distributed system https://indieweb.org/singleton
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[tantek] Zegnat, start there ^^^ and the link I put there
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[tantek] (Scuttlebutt has their own website with good content there - no need to read Medium for Scuttlebutt)
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[tantek] I know there are a few folks in the IndieWeb community dual publishing to their own site on https and on dat.
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[tantek] I think that's documented on /dat
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[tantek] which reminds me
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[tantek] rhiaro, your "nobody is allowed to work on alternative technologies" is a strawman and false. Many in the IndieWeb community have built bridges with "alternative technologies", both literally (see /dat) and conceptually (see /singleton and overlaps in principles), and I expect to continue to do so
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[tantek] somehow you're conflating "alternative" and "impractical" and IDK why
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rhiaro I'm rejecting the assertion that the did work is 'impractical'
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[tantek] anything plumbing only or plumbing-centric is 'impractical' in that you can't actually *do* anything with it
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[tantek] well, except maybe write white papers
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[tantek] *about it
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[tantek] lack of clear use cases and user needs being addressed is a sign that a technology is impractical
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[tantek] see https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/216 for more
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Loqi [hadleybeeman] #216 Decentralized identifiers (DIDs)
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[tantek] see also the report and logs/minutes from https://www.w3.org/Security/strong-authentication-and-identity-workshop/minutes.html where there's a knock-down drag-out fight between DID folks and OIDC folks, where aaronpk was an *observer* watching it all go down
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Loqi W3C Workshop on Strong Authentication & Identity
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jacky wow this is a _lot_ of content
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jacky just in that issue alone
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[tantek] I am far from the first / only person calling bullshit on DID
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jacky the abstract is solid though
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[tantek] not really my fight, except in the broad category of pushing back against things in the nonsense, impractical, and/or YAGNI
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jacky from https://opencreds.org/specs/source/webdht/
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[tantek] Xanadu had a solid abstract too
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jacky the movie?
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[tantek] jacky++ 😂😂
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Loqi jacky has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (60 in all channels)
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[tantek] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu
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jacky lol I only know of it because it _created_ an award
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jacky _WOW_
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jacky > Wired magazine published an article called "The Curse of Xanadu", calling Project Xanadu "the longest-running vaporware story in the history of the computer industry".[2] The first attempt at implementation began in 1960, but it was not until 1998 that an incomplete implementation was released. A version described as "a working deliverable", OpenXanadu, was made available in 2014.
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jacky that's wild
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[tantek] and this is why we are skeptical about so many things and promises and pronouncements
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jacky is going into a hole now
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jacky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkUkcoyksSI&feature=youtu.be&t=226
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jacky def lots of blockchain refs
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jacky DIDs still rely on DNS tho
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jacky for discovery
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jacky *DiDs
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gRegorLove Haha, I thought the movie at first too
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[tantek] I’m so sorry Jacky
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jacky I gave up part way
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jacky like I do _kinda_ like the idea of people not having to claim a domain name to identity themselves on the Web
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jacky but that's a big anchor in how things work and it's hard for me to grasp a world / Web without it
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jacky is off for the day
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jacky patchwork is pretty interesting (from SSB and friends)
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gRegorLove The idea sounds great, but I haven't had the time/will to really wrap my head around it
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aaronpk a big problem with the other promises of "use X so you don't have to register a domain name" is that quite often X involves a lot more work/time/money
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gRegorLove Yeah, which I think goes into the "will" part for me.