#dev 2019-06-05

2019-06-05 UTC
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KartikPrabhu well and h-feed of course!
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snarfed actually i guess new silos would still need to be supported in granary, if not in bridgy, if they don't have native mf2. hrm.
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GWG KartikPrabhu, that is a given in here
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[fluffy] Summary vs. full content is certainly supported in h-feed, but like the use case I have is wanting to provide full content on my feed without having it all display on, say, my blog index, and still having a “cut” for longer entries. I could provide a separate template for the h-feed that people subscribe to instead but that feels like it’s defeating the purpose to having it as microformat markup atop the existing blog index. Or is the exp
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[fluffy] subscription engine sees an entry with `p-summary` but not `e-content` that it will fetch the `e-content` from the canonical URL?
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[fluffy] As it stands right now, my feed uses `p-summary` for just a single-paragraph summary, namely the text slug that it also uses for the OpenGraph tags.
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[fluffy] Er, my `h-entry`/`h-feed`/whatever
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[fluffy] I’m not even sure I’m expressing `h-feed` right now, because I’m still trying to figure out the way that makes the most sense for it.
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gRegorLove_ Text got cut off there (IRC limit with the Slack bridge I think)
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[fluffy] oh neat, looks like it gets cut off on chat.indieweb.org too 😛
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gRegorLove_ Yeah, IRC is the canonical chat logs
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gRegorLove_ I think I get what you're saying, though.
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[fluffy] 1) Summary vs. full content is certainly supported in h-feed, but like the use case I have is wanting to provide full content on my feed without having it all display on, say, my blog index, and still having a “cut” for longer entries. I could provide a separate template for the h-feed that people subscribe to instead but that feels like it’s defeating the purpose to having it as microformat markup atop the existing blog index.
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[fluffy] 2) Or is the expectation that if a subscription engine sees an entry with `p-summary` but not `e-content` that it will fetch the `e-content` from the canonical URL?
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[fluffy] there 🙂
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gRegorLove_ Yeah, to keep it DRY ideally 1 feed = 1 page, so making a separate "full content" page may not make sense if you don't want that page.
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[fluffy] I guess another useful question: there’s `<link rel="alternate">` to provide feed discovery for Atom and RSS. Is there also a mechanism for the same with `h-feed`? Because if so I am totally fine with just making my `h-feed` another template.
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gRegorLove_ But you could use CSS or details/summary to visually display a summary version of the post while still having the full contents available to mf2 consumers
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[fluffy] so example, on my website http://beesbuzz.biz/ - there’s a little box with the 5 most recent things on the entire site, and then each of the categories only shows stuff germane to that category. I do also have a http://beesbuzz.biz/everything view that shows everything nested (and like all templates in Publ it inherits too, e.g. http://beesbuzz.biz/music/everything).
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Loqi fluffy
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[fluffy] yes, loqi?
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[fluffy] (I know, it was responding to my identity URL)
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gRegorLove_ #2 is a possibility, kind of what jacky wanted. I captured it on the Aperture discussion thread
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[fluffy] I do use CSS details to hide stuff as it is, sure, but having my index page render out discarded stuff for the rest of the site is both wasteful and also hecks up text-only user-agents.
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[fluffy] Unlike most webdevs I still check for lynx and w3m compatibility 🙂
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gRegorLove_ rel-alternate could work. aaronpk has an example on /rel-alternate
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gRegorLove_ though I don't think it's really an alternate if it's linking to a full-content version
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[fluffy] So, that’s providing the MF2 data as a JSON blob? Feels like an Atom feed but using JSON instead 🙂
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[fluffy] And I meant this more in the form of how there’s the de-facto (although not technically correct) standard of a blog entry linking to the atom feed for the blog itself on the page. Although that’s not even universal, a lot of things use the permalinks’ rel=alternate to point to a comment feed for the entry itself, for example.
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gRegorLove_ I take that back, I don't think that's a pertinent example for what we're talking about
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gRegorLove_ /rel-feed is what I was thinking of
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[fluffy] Ah, okay
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[fluffy] I guess technically I should be using `rel="alternate feed"` where I’m just using `rel="alternate"` right now, on categories, and `rel="feed"` on entries.
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[fluffy] But then I’m afraid of that hecking up older RSS readers that don’t know how to parse `rel` correctly.
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gRegorLove_ I use rel-feed primarily for Bridgy currently
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[fluffy] *cough*FeedOnFeeds*cough*
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[fluffy] (actually I don’t know if that’s the case, too bad there aren’t any FeedOnFeeds devs here oh wait that’s me)
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[fluffy] time to plunge into some ancient PHP code I hate 🙂
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gRegorLove_ Those RSS readers aren't likely to understand h-feed anyway
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[fluffy] Right, sorry, I was going tangentially.
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[fluffy] Technically even an atom feed should be `rel="feed"`, not `rel="alternate"`, per the strict reading of what `rel="alternate"` means.
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[fluffy] At least when linked from an entry.
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gRegorLove_ Ohh, yeah I see what you mean
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[fluffy] yeah, sorry, I was off in the weeds again. 🙂
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gRegorLove_ No worries
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[fluffy] well, “good news,” fof hands this off to SimplePie.
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[fluffy] which means now I get to dig through SimplePie, sigh
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gRegorLove Scrolling back, yeah your pages like http://beesbuzz.biz/music/everything would be good candidates for h-feed
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[fluffy] yeah, and using that as the `rel="feed"` would make sense.
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gRegorLove Newer SimplePie parses mf2
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[fluffy] oh, does it? that’s great!
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gRegorLove Our own mblaney maintains it now :)
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gRegorLove what is SimplePie?
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Loqi SimplePie is a feed parser library written in PHP, which supports h-feed parsing as of version 1.4 https://indieweb.org/SimplePie
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[fluffy] That doesn’t answer my question about its handling of `rel` but if I can upgrade simplepie in FeedOnFeeds then that makes it cooler.
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[fluffy] I think fof is still on 1.3.
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gRegorLove What's fof?
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[fluffy] Hopefully upgrading it isn’t too onerous, and then I can get the other forkholders to merge in 🙂
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[fluffy] FeedOnFeeds.
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[fluffy] It’s an ancient self-hosted PHP feed reader, originally written by Steven Minutillo, and has since been forked off and semi-lovingly maintained by a few unassociated folks, including me.
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gRegorLove Ah, nice!
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[fluffy] Alexander Schulze is sort of the de-facto lead on it, although we’re pretty casual about it.
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[fluffy] there’s been a bunch of independent efforts to keep FoF running and his sort of won out.
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[fluffy] https://github.com/RomanSixty/Feed-on-Feeds/
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gRegorLove uh oh, https://feedonfeeds.com/ is blank
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[fluffy] I actually prefer that to the previous state of affairs, where it was pointing to an ancient, nonfunctional version.
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[fluffy] oh, but yeah the project description needs updating
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[fluffy] wait feedonfeeds.com loads for me
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gRegorLove Ah, blank on https
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[fluffy] and it’s still serving up the ancient, no-longer-working version.
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gRegorLove Works http
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[fluffy] neat
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[fluffy] Anyway there’s three of us who have been very slowly improving FoF and at least trying to make it work reasonably okay and correctly. Oh, and I added WebSub support to it fairly recently. 🙂
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[fluffy] thanks
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[tantek] WebSub++ and nicely done for adding it fluffy++
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Loqi WebSub has 2 karma over the last year
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Loqi fluffy has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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[fluffy] It was pretty easy to add in, all things considered.
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@frankmeeuwsen ↩️ Ik vraag me nu wel af, als je als developer/productowner/stakeholder besluit af te stappen van 3rd party login en alleen email/ww kiest, ben je dan ook verplicht Apple login te gebruiken? Of wat als je DigiD of IndieAuth wil gebruiken? (twitter.com/_/status/1136144509551763458)
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[frank] Good morning Indieweb
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GWG Hello, [frank]
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[frank] I see Loqi already picked up my tweet with the question I wanted to ask here. If you exclusively use IndieAuth for your app, are you also forced to use Apple sign-in in the future? Or does this only apply to signins like Google, FB, Linkedin etc?
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GWG Not sure.
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GWG I don't own any apple products.
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[Rose] So anything that does account creation with Facebook/google sign ins also has to offer Apple.
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[Rose] “Sign In with Apple will be available for beta testing this summer. It will be required as an option for users in apps that support third-party sign-in when it is commercially available later this year.”
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[Rose] That’s in the developer docs.
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sknebel For now all(?) IndieAuth apps do authorization, not just authentication, which they can't replace with something external like Apple's
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Zegnat Yep, that is the thing aaronpk wrote about in his misconceptions post. If something does authorisation (wants access to something, e.g. your Google calendar) it cannot be replaced with Apple’s sign in. So most current IndieAuth use does not require the additional Apple flow
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Zegnat And according to the quote Rose just gave, it seems like if you decide to only have your own login (e.g. email/pwd that you mention, [frank]), you also shouldn’t be required to do it.
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[frank] Thanks for the extra info!
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Zegnat All that info is of course pending whatever Apple actually ends up doing ;)
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[frank] This will end up a big headscratch for most consumers. Let's say you want to give Fantastical access to your Google Calendar but you sign in with Apple. After authentication with Apple, you still need to log in (authenticate?) with Google to give access (authorize?) to Google Calendar. Am I right?
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[frank] At which point users might say, why would I use Apple Signin then?
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sebsel yes, but that's also because the App is owned by Google, right? If you log in to some random webshop, you can do that with just Apple. I think that is more their use case. But the webshop itself should support it.
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sebsel Without adoption, Sign in with Apple is nowhere and useless.
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Zegnat [frank]: that calendar example is a clear case of authorization, so that wouldn’t require the app to include Apples sign-in
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Zegnat There is logging in to things (”itme”) and there is authorising things to do stuff (“canihaz”). Apple sign-in can only support itme, it can only proof who you are. So Apple is saying that if your app allows itme proof through external parties (e.g. Facebook) is must also allow it through Apple. Because Apple can never provide canihaz, the current assumption is that when third-parties (e.g. Google OAuth for Calendar access) are
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Zegnat used for canihaz flows, Apple will not be required at all.
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Zegnat hopes that makes sense, trying to use kevinmarks’ itme and canihaz instead of authentication and authorisation
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[kevinmarks786] I think it's clearer, but maybe I need to write that up more fully.
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[frank] Love the itme/canihaz. I understand the assumption and it would make sense, otherwise the native Facebook app would also need Apple sign-in as a required option.
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Zegnat That one probably doesn’t require it because it isn’t actually a “third-party” at that point
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Zegnat But yeah, definitions are a little vague
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Zegnat [kevinmarks786]: please do! I had a hard time finding how we spelled the canihaz variant, and finally just found http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/can-we-rename-quotauthnquot-and-quotauthzquot-to-quotitmequot-and-quotcanihazquot which has little context
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] Can we rename 'authN' and 'authZ' to 'itme' and 'canihaz' ? #indieweb
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Zegnat In fact, that has so little context that if people do not know the meaning behind authN and authZ it doesn’t mean anything
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sknebel Isn't it actually more like "ucanhaz"?
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Zegnat itu?/canihaz? or itme!/ucanhaz! I guess?
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sknebel Yeah
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[jgmac1106] Thx all for the work on the MDN microformats page. Already seen it in the wild three times on GitHub.
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@tripticonomicon Webmention support for static sites: http://bit.ly/2ETgsgF (twitter.com/_/status/1136225970426437632)
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jgmac1106 can you not send Medium articles to the wayback machine? I am trying to send this article to Mozillians in countries that block Medium: https://medium.com/read-write-participate/introducing-open-leaders-x-olˣ-a12e049f5cc0
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[kevinmarks786] You need to escape the weird x https://medium.com/read-write-participate/introducing-open-leaders-x-ol%CB%A3-a12e049f5cc0
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[kevinmarks786] Hmm that gave a 400 too
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[kevinmarks786] http://archive.is/5c8TG
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[jgmac1106] thx
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jgmac1106 kevinmarks got it to work: https://web.archive.org/save/https://medium.com/read-write-participate/introducing-open-leaders-x-ol%CB%A3-a12e049f5cc0 the real problem is Mozilla’s contiuned use of a silo….I think there is a money exchange somehwere as donation
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GWG Anyone have an rss feed with multiple authors per item?
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sknebel I think I have an example of an atomfeed like that, not sure about rss
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GWG Trying to check multi-author in the wild for conversion to jf2 for Microsub
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GWG I can craft some,. but thought I'd look for real
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GWG Multi-author posts are a rarity in the Indieweb community
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sknebel some of the feeds for arxive have mutiple authors
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sknebel (I think KartikPrabhu mentioned them as an exampe once)
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GWG Got a link?
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GWG I think jackjamieson, who put me on this, is thinking academics
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sknebel On the phone right now, can look later
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@grantcodes ↩️ Ah ok, I think you have RelMeAuth setup but you also need to set your authorization endpoint like: <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://indieauth.com/auth"> (twitter.com/_/status/1136256206648086528)
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GWG No rush
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[kevinmarks786] Podcasts often have multi authors
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[kevinmarks786] If marked up correctly
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@Kajrietberg Zo, nu ook webmentions op mijn website: https://www.kajrietberg.nl/posts/2019-05-15-beyond-tellerrand/. Via @netlify Functions en JavaScript geimplementeerd. (twitter.com/_/status/1136259813778821121)
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jgmac1106 kevin do you see a difference between a host (author) and a guest (author)?
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jgmac1106 I have one gwg but it is a mf2 post run through Granary
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jgmac1106 missed the authors completely probably incorrect mf2 on my end
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jgmac1106 no parsers find and both authors
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jackjamieson GWG, you're right I think I usually see multi-author posts in RSS feeds of academic journals. Firstmonday.org is a good example, and has feeds in rss1, rss2, and atom
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GWG Hi, jackjamieson
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GWG I want to make sure the changes I made work in the wild
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[kevinmarks786] their RSS is <author>Chris May, Lior Shamir</author>
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[kevinmarks786] but Atom is <author><name>An Nguyen</name><email>anguyen@bournemouth.ac.uk</email></author>
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[kevinmarks786] <author>
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[kevinmarks786] <name>Hong Tien Vu</name>
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[kevinmarks786] </author>
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[kevinmarks786] <email>hongvu@ku.edu</email>
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jackjamieson And the rss 1.0 format is
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jackjamieson <dc:creator>An Nguyen</dc:creator>
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jackjamieson <dc:creator>Hong Tien Vu</dc:creator>
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[kevinmarks786] The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from.
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jackjamieson While it should be relatively straightforward to cover the atom and rss1.0 structures, I wonder if it's better to translate the comma-separated list as a single "author"
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GWG I just figure I need to test a few and try to cover the biggest ones
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jackjamieson I don't have an example handy, but I suspect some RSS feeds might use a "lastname, firstname" format
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jackjamieson So splitting by comma could cause confusion
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[kevinmarks786] I notice that a lot of podcasts that is expect to show the contributors as authors instead credit the company
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jackjamieson I'll look through some feeds and see if I can find any other formats
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[kevinmarks786] I suspect that iTunes idea of cardinality may rule there
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sknebel jackjamieson: I wouldn't try to guess from things that aren't clearly marked up as multiple authors, yes. seems to error-prone
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sknebel [kevinmarks786]: what does iTunes assume/require?
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sknebel hm, in some podcast feeds (all using the same WP plugin I think) I see itunes:author as the "this entity runs this podcast" and atom:contributor as "this person talks here" (including the host, even if they are identical to the former)
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sknebel example feed: https://feeds.metaebene.me/lnp/m4a
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snarfed jgmac1106[m]: feel free to file an issue for that granary bug!
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snarfed if it is a bug
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snarfed hi jackjamieson! how's it going? any luck with that paper in the new journal?
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GWG jackjamieson: The firstname lastname I'm not going to try to handle
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jackjamieson Hi snarfed. I'm presenting a poster related to the paper at a conference in July, but unfortunately just got a rejection notice for the full paper yesterday. At least some useful feedback
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GWG sknebel: They are listed as contributors, not authors.
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[kevinmarks786] Apple says author is for the organisation at feed level
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GWG Should I be translating contributor to author?
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GWG When doing Atom/RSS to MF2?
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[kevinmarks786] https://help.apple.com/itc/podcasts_connect/#/itcb54353390
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GWG snarfed: Feel free to comment. This is granary territory
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[kevinmarks786] <itunes:author>
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[kevinmarks786] The group responsible for creating the show.
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[kevinmarks786] Show author most often refers to the parent company or network of a podcast, but it can also be used to identify the host(s) if none exists.
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[kevinmarks786] Author information is especially useful if a company or organization publishes multiple podcasts. Providing this information will allow listeners to see all shows created by the same entity.
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jackjamieson GWG, I agree it's not worth handling lastname, firstname. And I agree with sknebel that trying to interpret a comma-separated list of authors is probably error-prone
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[kevinmarks786] so they're explictly saying put your org there
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snarfed jackjamieson++ sorry to hear it. their loss!
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Loqi jackjamieson has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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GWG jackjamieson: I got the one you sent me with the built in links by parsing the links.
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sknebel GWG: that's the question, yes. maybe it's also worth introducing contributors as a separate thing, if there's enough cases where it is useful
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GWG jackjamieson: Sorry to hear as welll
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GWG Does microformats have the concept of a contributor?
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GWG And what is the different between a contributor and an author?
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snarfed i don't actually follow these feed semantics details much. i just kind of blindly implement my best understanding/guess at the time. if granary is doing anything wrong, please do file issues with details!
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GWG And is this a #microformats conversation?
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sknebel no, good question, not yet :D
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GWG snarfed: I would. But I try not to rely on granary. I'm looking in the wild.
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jackjamieson Thanks snarfed, I want to get it out soon, but peer-review is a slow and frustrating process. I do think it's a good paper, but still room for improvement, and worth getting right
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GWG I'm parsing RSS/Atom using mblaney's current SimplePie. It has a get_contributors option. Maybe I should just dump it into a contributors property and see what happens from there
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sknebel sounds good
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[kevinmarks786] Where does it get that from?
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GWG [kevinmarks786]: Get what from?
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[kevinmarks786] Contributors iirc that isn't a property
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GWG [kevinmarks786]: I'm passing it for now for debugging purposes
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GWG [kevinmarks786]: Contributor is an Atom or RSS property
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GWG Apparently.
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GWG I'm just reading the feeds.
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GWG http://www.rssboard.org/media-rss#media-credit
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GWG I just found a podcast feed that uses this.
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[kevinmarks786] Ah, it's an atom one.
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[kevinmarks786] RSS could namespace it in maybe
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[kevinmarks786] RSS has managingEditor lol
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GWG [kevinmarks786]: RSS is namespacing it as atom:contributor on the Atom feed sknebel provided
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[kevinmarks786] Also rss author is defined as an email, whereas atom has name uri email
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GWG I don't want people's emails. I really want their URLs
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GWG Wonder how I map media credits to jf2
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GWG That's another author like property
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GWG I may go too far sometimes.
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GWG But I envision a Microsub podcatcher along with the Microsub feed reader
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GWG And I know people like jackjamieson and other more academic types are interested in citations
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@frankmeeuwsen Bookmark: Kaj Rietberg en Webmentions: https://diggingthedigital.com/?p=3692 (twitter.com/_/status/1136334387899969537)
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@frankmeeuwsen ↩️ @Kajrietberg @Netlify Als het goed is heb je een webmention van mij ontvangen, vanaf https://diggingthedigital.com/bookmark-kaj-rietberg-en-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/1136334814498447360)
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sebsel [frank]: I tried as well, but he shows only likes ;)
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@smithtimmytim Cool news peeps! Bright Pixels now has full commenting and webmention support! https://brightpixels.blog (twitter.com/_/status/1136359015389249538)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Been talking to you folks all day but Twitter suspended my POSSE app... Been shouting into wind... But some folks have thought long and hard about webmentions and GDPR. Some go farther. (twitter.com/_/status/1136362300770795520)
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