#dev 2019-07-23

2019-07-23 UTC
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@noservershere Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site http://jsfeeds.com/details/weekly-platform-news-css-marker-pseudo-element-pre-rendering-web-components-adding-webmention-to-your-site-5d31d59014ff049718102535?s=rss (twitter.com/_/status/1153455042550214656)
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@easyaspython New 1.1.0 release for django-webmention, which mostly includes non-implementation changes for improved maintainership (CI/CD and test management). https://github.com/easy-as-python/django-webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1153504396963135488)
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@easyaspython ↩️ Using tox-travis you can just tell Travis CI the Pythons you need, and all the other combinatorics will just run on the Python of interest. Pretty nice. Here's my changeset for all this jazz: https://github.com/easy-as-python/django-webmention/pull/10 (twitter.com/_/status/1153505516045381632)
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GWG Okay, did a bunch of h-feed research.
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GWG Documented in /h-feed
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GWG It seems that a name property is very common for h-feeds.
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GWG The other properties that I was looking for...author, summary, photo, and whether the feed page had pagination were somewhat less
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Zegnat I was surprised to see you document a proposal by me, haha
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@CascadingNews IndieWeb and Webmentions https://css-tricks.com/indieweb-and-webmentions/?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/1153566816100331522)
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@clivewalker ↩️ @grabapipit and/or webmentions? (twitter.com/_/status/1153590772861689859)
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@grabapipit ↩️ @clivewalker Ah yes, webmentions would be great. (twitter.com/_/status/1153591680555204609)
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@clivewalker ↩️ @grabapipit @alexhardy @perchology I still think that webmentions is a good thing to have. (twitter.com/_/status/1153599138241679360)
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GWG Zegnat, it was noted as a todo
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GWG I was trying to update the page overall
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GWG I also fixed the fact that the markup instructions were a bit garbled
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[jgmac1106] realized way I have badges set up is basically a page for each badge and then a unique url using ID for each time the badge is issued: https://edu407.glitch.me/badges.html
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Zegnat Seems like a valid way to do things, [jgmac1106]. As long as parsers that you want to handle it actually support parsing h-entry elements by fragment ID
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GWG I need to write that out as part of the algorithm
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Zegnat Do we actually have a start for that algorithm somewhere? A “which mf2 object to return for a given URL” algorithm?
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[jgmac1106] http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fedu407.glitch.me%2Fbadges%2Flevelingbooks.html
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Workshop Routines https://cdn.glitch.com/a974d180-ae01-469c-95b5-f1409f0781ad%2Flevelbooks.png?1551915592159
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[jgmac1106] looks pretty good, but in that one I may have the webmention being sent to the wrong url there as I would want it going to the url of the evidence
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GWG Zegnat, I was going to write one, but where?
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Zegnat Not sure what the right place would be, GWG
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Zegnat Maybe just a new page?
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Zegnat [jgmac1106]: looks good, though I am confused about the url property that seems to point to the thing I would have thought this was a reply to
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[jgmac1106] yeah that is what I was noting, this was an early prototype. I think I fixed that by end of semester
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[jgmac1106] I hired an intern to build a course builder and badgemaker. Can't wait to really start playing
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Zegnat Will that work be open-source?
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[jgmac1106] yes
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[jgmac1106] well I can't tell Marquis how to license, because he is a student worker I have to pay him an unfair below market rate...So I am letting him own the code and choose the license but just give me and anyone who buys me a...blah blah..legal stuff
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[jgmac1106] from discussions he is going to choose an Open Source option
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[jgmac1106] and i am working to Open Source ReVIEW this month. For other legal reasons I had to wait until end of July of this year
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[jgmac1106] Using Kirby actually to build the Course Builder and Badge Maker....Unviersity paperwork taking forever and a day to get through payroll....I am excited to start
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GWG Zegnat, will start on the h-feed page re discovery
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GWG You know, I can't find an h-feed with a photo property in the wild so far
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GWG But the people on the h-feed page aren't exactly current
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GWG As in, not much active updating
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[jgmac1106] podcast feeds gwg
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GWG Yes?
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GWG Do you have a podcast h-feed with a photo property to add to the examples?
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aaronpk https://percolator.today/
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GWG aaronpk, thank you. I should add that to the h-feed page on the wiki
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GWG Where your site is not an example
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aaronpk tell me why i should add it to my site and I may do that :)
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aaronpk but right now I don't see a reason to
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@CristianNebunu How to add webmentions to a Laravel powered blog http://ow.ly/MiN330p87Oy (twitter.com/_/status/1153639724571082753)
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GWG aaronpk, I meant the h-feed page on the wiki
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GWG And percolator.today
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GWG I am trying to make the case for explicit h-feed being preferable to implied h-feed in general
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GWG The h-feed page on the wiki needs more current examples. I went through and a lot has changed on people's sites
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GWG aaronpk, do you have any ideas where we might document a...which mf2 object to return for a given url algorithm?
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MrKapowski I'll add my site to the examples, GWG
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MrKapowski I'm planning to bake h-feed into the WP theme I'm working on, so I'll be interested in if there are any recommendations come out of your review
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[jgmac1106] [grantcodes] as a call back to yesterday's discussion about dt-updated would there be an easy way in Glitch to use the Git checkpoints to display the last time a page was updated rather than doing it manually?
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[grantcodes] I doubt an easy way
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[grantcodes] There might be something of use in the glitch environment variables but I'm not sure
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[jgmac1106] thx
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sknebel GWG: is "implied h-feed" explicitly documented somewhere?
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GWG I think on the feed page, as opposed to the h-feed page
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[jgmac1106] finished the second lesson plan if any one wants to give it a technical read and make sure Iam not saying anything incorrect: https://buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Build Your First Website
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MrKapowski How do people feel about h-feed for comments/webmentions, etc, on a permalink page? I'm thinking specifically as embedded within an h-entry. Good idea? Bad idea? Irrelevant-because-nothing-supports-it idea?
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MrKapowski ^^^ Prompted by this: http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming#microformats2_h-feed_p-comments
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Loqi Brainstorming for a Comment Microformat
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[tantek] MrKapowski better to ask in indieweb-dev for such a specific use
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MrKapowski I thought I did?
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aaronpk lol yeah that is this channel
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[jgmac1106] MrKapowski I always made a comment feed in my classroom planets, encourages greater interaction would do the same with webmentions if I built using h-feeds and not rss
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KartikPrabhu MrKapowski: I think right now no /reader supports this afaik
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MrKapowski KartikPrabhu - yeah, that matches my initial experimentation. I don't think any of the parsers picked it up either
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KartikPrabhu I am sure parsers should pick it up
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KartikPrabhu the mf2py parser does parse the example on that page correcly
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aaronpk I'm sure he means consumers not parsers
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KartikPrabhu yeah, that I expected for /readers
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aaronpk I've been wanting to add that to Monocle
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aaronpk so you can click"view comment thread" on a post
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aaronpk Instead of leaving Monocle to view the original post
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: is a nested h-feed necesary for that?
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KartikPrabhu Monocole could retrieve a list of "p-comment"s directly
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MrKapowski I meant XRay/Parse This, etc, but I just realised why they weren't working with my test page (my fault :-) )
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MrKapowski there's a typo in my markup. Once I get a chance to fix that I expect it'll work
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KartikPrabhu MrKapowski: I would suggest not using excessive markup for your theme for now. If /readers add support of this later, then you could add it to your theme then
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MrKapowski it's only an extra couple of classes to implement… I'm not changing the structure of anything to add it, and lean markup is one of my goals as it is :)
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[manton] [grantcodes] I noticed that the new Together no longer works with Micro.blog's Microsub endpoint ("Error loading channels"). Any tips for what might have changed? Micro.blog still works with Monocle.
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[grantcodes] Hmm maybe the same thing davidbeal has been experiencing
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[grantcodes] If you open up the console, there should be a link to open an issue with all the details
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[grantcodes] Looking in the database, it has your token and endpoints stored. (although not necessarily correct)
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: yes of course, I was not suggesting any particular markup
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@noservershere Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site http://jsfeeds.com/details/weekly-platform-news-css-marker-pseudo-element-pre-rendering-web-components-adding-webmention-to-your-site-5d31d59014ff049718102535?s=rss (twitter.com/_/status/1153726537834881025)
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[grantcodes] !tell [manton] Figured out the microsub issue. The data fetching I am using adds a trailing slash onto all urls by default for some reason. And your endpoint returns null with a slash on the end
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[grantcodes] Fix is on it's way!
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[KevinMarks] What is two factor?
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Loqi multi-factor authentication (commonly two-factor authentication, abbreviated 2FA or TFA) is an authentication process that requires at least a second component to a standard authentication method https://indieweb.org/two-factor
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[KevinMarks] two factor << https://twitter.com/scalzi/status/1153754441562173440?s=20
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@scalzi When two factor authentication goes wrong. https://twitter.com/lawrenceschimel/status/1153754217825361920 (twitter.com/_/status/1153754441562173440)
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/scalzi/status/1153754441562173440?s=20" to the "See Also" section of /multi-factor_authentication https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=63877&oldid=55521
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[grantcodes] Random thought about your privateish pages [snarfed]: have you thought about webmentions and microformats? For example if I like it my site is going to automatically grab a copy of any mf2 on your hidden pages
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@tomwiththeweath ↩️ @simondlr RSS +1 also, indieweb readers (indigenous, monocle, together, etc) can like or reply to posts that support webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1153759799915536385)
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[snarfed] grantcodes sure. i'm trying to implement privacy and unlistedness, _not_ "security," ie not preventing other people from individually generating partial copies like that
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[snarfed] having said that, likes of private posts would do the same thing, right?
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[fluffy] Unlisted posts are fairly straightforward to support webmentions from, although sending a mention from an unlisted page to a public page then makes the unlisted page de-facto public.
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[fluffy] They’re just now listed on someone else’s site that you can’t control.
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[snarfed] right. grant meant webmentions _to_ unlisted pages.
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[fluffy] ah ok
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[fluffy] I think that’d be the same problem in reverse though
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[fluffy] Unlisted mentioning unlisted would be fine, any other combination would mean that the unlisted page is now listed somewhere.
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[snarfed] i should stop advertising my wm endpoint on unlisted pages
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[snarfed] also one of my goals of the "this is a private page" visible indicator was to discourage people from publicly linking to them
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[fluffy] Ooh yeah I should probably add an “unlisted” indicator to my unlisted pages. My actually-private pages do have an indicator though.
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Loqi totally
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[fluffy] 🔏 is the emoji I use fort hat
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[eddie] I think one thing to help with unlisted and private pages would be adopting p-visibility as a possible mf2 attribute. Something I'm planning to experiment with once I've got the basics of my iOS apps. That would allow me to basically make any replies to posts that are unlisted or private into private posts
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[snarfed] huh. that implies writing is restricted. wonder if there's an alternative with an eyeball instead of pen
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[fluffy] I don’t know why emoji has a “closed padlock with an ink pen” emoji but it seems like it’s specifically for this use case 🙂
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[snarfed] apologizes and slowly backs away from design
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[fluffy] for unlisted-but-hidden I’d probably use 🔓 (open padlock)
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[fluffy] although it’s kind of a subtle distinction, at least on the macOS font.
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[fluffy] between 🔒and 🔓anyway
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[fluffy] also I can’t believe I”m about to complain about bad kerning on emoji but: holy hell that’s some bad kerning
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[fluffy] on the macOS emoji font it’s hard to tell if there’s a space after it or not, but adding an explicit space means there’s *too much* space
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[snarfed] glazes
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[fluffy] anyway I’d love to see a `p-visibility` or similar in addition to visual cues. Make it so that micropub et al clients can at least present a warning like “hey are you sure you want to do that?”
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[eddie] Yep, exactly. I think with unlisted and private posts becoming a key part of people's set ups over the next year, I think that'll be needed
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[fluffy] also I’m trying to figure out how I can reasonably receive webmentions on my actually-private posts. Right now if someone’s unauthorized they get redirected to another page to actually handle the login.
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[eddie] So I'm gonna add it to my stuff when I have the time and we'll see if others follow suit
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[eddie] Yeah webmentions to private posts is difficult currently
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[fluffy] So the webmention endpoint would probably do the same unless it’s authorized via AutoAuth. and I don’t like the idea of giving a potentially third-party service read access to everything.
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[eddie] Hmmm yeah that's tricky
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[eddie] I think AutoAuth has the option of a "realm" which I don't fully understand
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[eddie] but maybe you could separate posts into different realms? or even have a realm per post?
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[fluffy] I suppose I could also make it so the initial page access doesn’t redirect and just publishes the webmention endpoint for the actual target page but that gets tricky too
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[eddie] then the token for that realm would apply to a subset of your posts
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[fluffy] I’m not sure what a “realm” is in this context
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[fluffy] oh I see
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[fluffy] feels too complicated
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[fluffy] I mean personally I’m not a fan of other peoples’ replies to my private stuff being potentially broadcast on the public Internet anyway
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[fluffy] I’d much rather people use my own native comments (which are disqus at present but that’s beside the point) to reply to things that I have locked down
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[eddie] If you don't want replies to private stuff I'd remove the webmention endpoint on private posts
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[eddie] I want people to reply from their own site on private stuff, I just want to ensure they make them private posts as well
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[fluffy] yeah I guess I could do that, the templates could just be like `{% if not entry.is_private %}<link rel="webmention" ...>{% endif %}`
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[fluffy] (that being Publ-specific of course)
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[eddie] Yeah that would work.
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[fluffy] of course rmeoving the endpoint still doesn’t prevent people from posting about/linking to the post publicly
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[eddie] Correct
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[fluffy] which is the actual security concern
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[eddie] You can never prevent that
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[eddie] it's the internets
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[fluffy] yeah
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[fluffy] so I mean all that removing the endpoint does is makes it less likely I find out about it 😛
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[eddie] True, although if you don't set up something like AutoAuth the webmention endpoint won't ever work on a private post
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[fluffy] Sure.
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[fluffy] I think this is a problem for future fluffy to think about.
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[eddie] heh
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[fluffy] I hope that this becomes a problem I have to address in the future! But for now things are too scattered/vague for me to see any reason to worry about engineering a fix.
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[eddie] for sure
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[fluffy] as it stands, all of my privacy-post-enabled friends are either using an RSS reader or manually polling my site for updates, and the ones with a reader just see a placeholder stub like “🔏 Private entry [Jhs]” which is the compromise I decided on.
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[fluffy] basically the most recent unauthorized entry gets a stub entry with a login link and the initials of the actual post title.
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[fluffy] If someone happens to use a cookie jar or similar to share their login session cookie with their feed reader, they’ll get the full post.
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[fluffy] ooh and I just realized I don’t have the privacy indicator in the title in that case
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[fluffy] not that I have any evidence that anyone’s actually gotten that working though.
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[fluffy] this is a thing I’m hoping AutoAuth makes possible in the future but that requires soooo much stuff to happen on the reader side before it will.
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[fluffy] nice, I just verified that a cookie jar WILL work with a feed reader, by giving it my admin session’s cookie.
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[fluffy] (after adding the privacy marker)
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@jaklina51 IndieWeb and Webmentions http://dlvr.it/R8yRQM https://t.co/yrFpnCVMGf (twitter.com/_/status/1153787783380496384)
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GWG [eddie] I was looking at your website
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GWG Why not mark up the homepage as several partial h-feeds?
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GWG [tantek]: Would you have an opinion on the question I asked this morning?
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GWG Or that Zegnat asked...
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GWG "Do we actually have a start for that algorithm somewhere? A “which mf2 object to return for a given URL” algorithm?" - I asked where we should put such a thing
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[tantek] that's the mf2 parsing spec
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KartikPrabhu afaik, given a URL mf2 parsers returns the parsed mf2 of the entire page, not some "object"
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[tantek] interesting, I seem to have omitted it. Originally defined here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#URL_handling
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[tantek] that's worth opening an issue for, especially as I think we already have implementations
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KartikPrabhu not sure any mf2 parser breaks up on fragments
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KartikPrabhu wait we have implementations for parsing only a fragment link?!
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[tantek] a URL with a fragment, yes
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[tantek] yes, feel free to open an issue https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues requesting incorporation of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#URL_handling into the microformats2 parsing specification
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[tantek] pretty sure both aaronpk and GWG use mf2 parser implementations that parse a specific element identified by fragment
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KartikPrabhu pin13 does not do it
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[tantek] could be a form UI bug
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KartikPrabhu must be something custom outside the actual parser
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KartikPrabhu I do that too
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[tantek] you need to test actual parser code, not just a wrapper UI
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[snarfed] interesting. i've had a consistent trickle of interest in bridgy for supporting fragments. problematic, but interesting. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/445 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/681
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Loqi [csarven] #445 publish: support fragment for identifying individual entry
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GWG So, where is the algorithm discussed? And this is post parsing
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[jgmac1106] so I was trying to use a bit of javascript to get dt-updated, using this and getting close..but unreliable: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091202150609AAC9bkV folks know of any other
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[jgmac1106] started searching Google when someone showed me: javascript:alert(document.lastModified) but that is just a popup modal so I started googling ways to call it HTML
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GWG I want to document the work Parse This does to standardize output and share it
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GWG Same for x-ray
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[jgmac1106] !mf2 https://buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me/lessonone.html
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Kaja__ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbuildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me%2Flessonone.html
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Lesson One: Images, Headers, Links and Text
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Lesson One: Images, Headers, Links and Text
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[tantek] GWG I linked to where it was described, and no it doesn't have to be after parsing, in fact you could do it much more efficiently if you go "pull out" the fragment element subtree first and just parse that
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GWG [tantek] I have a bunch of issues I would want to go over.
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GWG I was trying to find a place to document all of them for people writing similar code
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[tantek] GWG, see above re: my request to file an issue for that
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GWG Oh...
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GWG I thought you were referring to the fragment issue only
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GWG Excuse me
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[tantek] that's the only thing worth standardizing now right?
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[tantek] xray's output is an evolving thing. best bet for that is jf2
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-07-23/1563923712433200
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Loqi [[tantek]] yes, feel free to open an issue https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues requesting incorporation of http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#URL_handling into the microformats2 parsing specification
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GWG [tantek] I also have trying to standardize feeds in general
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GWG I did some work on the h-feed wiki page last night
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GWG I didn't realize someone added pagination as a recommendation
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GWG By the way, is it acceptable to update someone else's Indieweb example?
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GWG Such as what I did on the h-feed page?
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[tantek] yes and it's quite valuable - good work there GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (158 in all channels)
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aaronpk XRay parses from a fragment url but I can't remember if that's XRay finding the fragment and handing just that part off to the mf2 parser or what