#dev 2019-07-24

2019-07-24 UTC
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@noservershere Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site http://jsfeeds.com/details/weekly-platform-news-css-marker-pseudo-element-pre-rendering-web-components-adding-webmention-to-your-site-5d31d59014ff049718102535?s=rss (twitter.com/_/status/1153817140094361611)
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[tantek] either way aaronpk, it's proof of implementation
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aaronpk It does work tho! And it means I can get webmentions from fragment URLs and they look good
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GWG I still have that issue with the php mf2 parser not doing IDs correctly
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@SamKap I'm so exhausted that my search queries are getting really short. Exhibit A: "Webmentions how?" (twitter.com/_/status/1153825301773705216)
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[jgmac1106] Sam's search will treat them just fine
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[tantek] X2V also parses for fragments
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[eddie] !tell GWG I change it a lot, and don’t have much data on the posts, so I find it easier to just have the homepage be more visual and have my feed be a separate page that is linked to
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] !tell GWG once I feel like I nail a homepage design I really like I might spend the time to think about marking it up, but for now I find linking elsewhere the easiest
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Okay
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Loqi GWG: [eddie] left you a message 1 minute ago: I change it a lot, and don’t have much data on the posts, so I find it easier to just have the homepage be more visual and have my feed be a separate page that is linked to
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GWG I understand
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[eddie] I’m avoiding the tantek problem as well 😉
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[eddie] Although now that your spending a lot of time fixing up parsing his homepage that’ll make it easier for me in the future
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GWG [eddie]: That is why I wanted some documentation.
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[jgmac1106] darn the bit of javascript I found changes every time a site is updated and not just a page: https://buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me/lessonone.html
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Lesson One: Images, Headers, Links and Text
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[manton] [grantcodes] Excellent! Thanks for testing that and finding the problem!
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[manton] I can confirm that Together works again for me with Micro.blog too.
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[tantek] [eddie] “the”? You’re going to have to be more specific 😂
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[eddie] Hahaha tantek I was talking about the multiple h-feeds on your homepage
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Loqi hehe
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@_CodeGears_ Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site https://buff.ly/2YYx8eU #dev (twitter.com/_/status/1153881248961564677)
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jacky tbh
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jacky those accounts make me wonder how much of the web is just noise
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aaronpk A lot of it
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jacky lol
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[Michael_Beckwit Not only noise, but noise making bots
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[fluffy] SEO-boosting crap
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@frankmeeuwsen ↩️ Je kunt eens kijken of het mogelijk is om webmentions te ondersteunen. Een W3C standaard waarmee je onder andere Twitter commentaar kunt importeren op je site en zo de discussie duurzamer op je eigen domein houdt. (twitter.com/_/status/1153896002006528002)
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@icodefy Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site http://dlvr.it/R8zFmh (twitter.com/_/status/1153904298801033217)
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@noservershere Weekly Platform News: CSS ::marker pseudo-element, pre-rendering web components, adding Webmention to your site http://jsfeeds.com/details/weekly-platform-news-css-marker-pseudo-element-pre-rendering-web-components-adding-webmention-to-your-site-5d31d59014ff049718102535?s=rss (twitter.com/_/status/1153907732434640896)
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sknebel Re the fragment parsing discussion from earlier: I think x-ray just cuts the HTML out of the page, so you loose authorship that relies on other parts of the page etc
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[Rose] So, today I found out certbot didn't autorenew some domains... And I can't login to monocle because my aperture isn't https 😛
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Zegnat Is that an arbitrary limitation of Monocle?
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Zegnat sknebel: yes. Actually, I think that may be a custom method in php-mf2 that does that.
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[Rose] I think it was because of my nginx setup - it was telling it to use SSL and the cert it was delivering was expired. A server reboot fixed it, so something was probably stuck in nginx
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[Rose] (And to be clear, I approve of Monocle saying "uhh, nope!" in response to an expired SSL cert)
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Zegnat Not sure if that was a specific decision on Monocle’s part. I think default curl will bail out unless you tell it specifically not to verify the cert
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[Rose] Which makes sense
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jgmac1106 So currently when ever I add a new article to my h-feed, I manuallyhead over to granary, paste in the the link, and then cpy and paste the xml for rss and paste that back on my website. I know some people have automated this. Would doing so require a lot of prior knowledge and time? Anyone make any tutorials?
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Zegnat jgmac1106: I think some people just link to the granary permalink for their homepage
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jgmac1106 I did not know I could do that, I just go read some documentation…and slowly back away
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Zegnat What hfeed are you doing this for?
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jgmac1106 so all I need to do is just use this with rel=feed https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=as1-xml&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Farticles.html
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Zegnat Yes, though you probably want output to be either atom or rss
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jgmac1106 https://jgregorymcverry.com/articles
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Zegnat Yep, so the following will always return an atom feed: https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=atom&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Farticles.html
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Zegnat If you put that as the rel=feed, you just tell readers to subscribe to that URL
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jgmac1106 I had no idea it was that easy, been doing it manually everytime I updated https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=rss&url=https%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2Farticles.html is soo easy,
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jgmac1106 snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 46 karma in this channel over the last year (79 in all channels)
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Zegnat The problem with it will be that you cannot offer websub, as granary will only update the feed on requests thus readers must always poll
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Zegnat And the other con is that you are now dependent on granary.io as a domain, so you cannot easily switch feed provider
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jgmac1106 Somewhere on here: https://granary.readthedocs.io/en/stable/ It should describe those 3 easy steps, its just to generate xml for rss, 98% of the people I know use RSS
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Zegnat I wonder if you can make the case for putting a redirect on your own site, so people can subscribe to jgregorymcverry.com/rss and it will redirect to granary. Then, theoretically, you can switch away from granary without having to tell everyone that they need to resubscribe to you
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jgmac1106 I will play, I have a few lessons before I get there. I was thinking about this tutorial I am working on https://buildyourfirstwebsitelessonplans.glitch.me/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Build Your First Website
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jgmac1106 In module two folks will add an h-feed of posts, I want to include directions on the easiest way to also add an xml file
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jgmac1106 I thought this was gonna be a 1-2 day project but each lesson taking me about half day to write, I figure IndieWeb 101 would take you through Module 1, IndieWeb 201 would be Module 2 and three and four being optional graduate programs
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GWG Opened two parsing issues to start
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GWG One for fragments, one for implied h-feed.. should a URL of h-entrys be returned as an h-feed even if one isn't expressly used?
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GWG Curious about opinions re that
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KartikPrabhu not by a mf2 parser
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Zegnat That will be one of the discussion points, I guess. Should the mf2 parser ever care about the fragment or should the consumer of the parser output do that
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Zegnat But if the consumer needs to do it, it needs to keep the original HTML around, because the IDs may not be included in the mf2 parser output?
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sknebel That's why we added IDs to the parser output
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Zegnat Yes, but that will only work if the ID is on the same element as the root h-* declaration. Though maybe we do not want to support other cases?
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[tantek] we already answered that question back in the mf1 days — the parser should handle the fragment because it can do so more efficiently
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[tantek] instead of the consuming code that calls the parser
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[tantek] and I am also against implied h-feed in the parser (what KartikPrabhu said)
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@sonniesedge ↩️ Also, yeah, http://brid.gy, not http://bird.gy. #SoTired (twitter.com/_/status/1154032803656265730)
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@janboddez Awesome seeing ever more people enable webmentions! But: webmentions have _very_ little to do with Twitter—it’s Bridgy doing all the work. In fact, any site could be set up to send and receive webmentions—they’re simple POST requests, after all. https://freek.dev/1406-how-to-add-webmentions-to-a-laravel-powered-blog (twitter.com/_/status/1154033589299712003)
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@bobbysebolao https://www.bobbysebolao.com test tweet to see if webmentions work... (twitter.com/_/status/1154035848016326664)
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[tantek] I feel we've been seeing an uptick in these kinds of tweets with folks testing webmentions
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[renem] Since I host my blog via Netlify and want to implement #bridgy-fed I need to write the redirect rules for the ./well-known/ URLs. Problem ist, that redirect rules on Netlify are possible but can't simply forward query parameters as well. Each redirect also needs the query parameter that will be redirected. Can anyone explain me if there is a list with parameters that are necessary? like the "resource" one? any others? Couldn't find a list/spec.
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[Zegnat] I am not sure you should expect any query string on that request at all, [renem]
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[Zegnat] See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6415 for the host-meta spec
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sknebel [Zegnat] apologies for the service interruption, quassel will be back on approx 1 hour
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[Zegnat] No problem. Slack back-up ;)
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[renem] [Zegnat] I'm following the bridgy-fed setup and there is a quote
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[renem] > Finally, configure your web site to redirect these URL paths to the same paths on https://fed.brid.gy/, *including query parameters*:
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sknebel probably the webfinger spec is the reference you want...
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[Zegnat] Yeah, I am not sure if there is any reason for that. host-name for one is specifically a static file, AFAIK.
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[Zegnat] You may even be able to copy the one that exists on fed.brid.gy and serve it yourself from netlify. Though of course then you risk being out of date if fed.brid.gy updates it
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sknebel zegnat afaik it asks e.g. for the specific user name in a query oaram
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[Zegnat] Oh, webfinger specifically? Hmm. Odd
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sknebel could check what brjdgy handles in the source I guess, or someone has it set up and can check logs
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[Zegnat] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7033#section-4.2 – the webfinger URL needs a resource query, yes
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[Zegnat] I may be blind, but I do not see where host-meta is even handled? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/search?q=host-meta&unscoped_q=host-meta It may literally be just a static file? In which case only webfinger needs the query params
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[tantek] maybe worth adding some Netlify-specific instructions to /Netlify ? Perhaps in a "How to support Bridgy Fed" section?
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[tantek] (even partial instructions / summary and linking to the Bridgy documentation would be a great start)
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[snarfed] [Zegnat] et al, the host-meta code and routes are in a different package: https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/master/handlers.py#L273-L276
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[snarfed] not a static file, but you all are right, the host-meta URLs don't have any query params afaik
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[snarfed] `/.well-known/webfinger` definitely does, though, the webfinger ones
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[Zegnat] Aah, that’s why I couldn’t find it! I was now slowly looking through all the handlers
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[Zegnat] Thanks snarfed!
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[snarfed] [renem] currently the only query param bridgy fed needs for `/.well-known/webfinger` is `resource`. if you add that, it should work
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[renem] [Zegnat] I’ll try that out and report back if Netlify will work that way. Is there a PR possible to update the docs regarding Netlify redirects? Would write something but don’t know where to publish like [tantek] suggested.
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[snarfed] [renem]: https://indieweb.org/Netlify
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[snarfed] (we often abbreviate wiki pages here with just the path, eg /Netlify)
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[tantek] and when doing so they get auto-linked in the logs, e.g.: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-07-24/1563987229415100
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Loqi [[snarfed]] (we often abbreviate wiki pages here with just the path, eg /Netlify)
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GWG [tantek]: When I asked about where to document things that affected xray and Parse This, you suggested the mf2 parsing algorithm. If implied h-feed algorithms don't belong there... should there be a home for the mf2 consuming algorithms?
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[tantek] "where to document things that affected xray and Parse This" - depends on the specific thing, in this case, I just went with answering the first concrete example, fragments
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[tantek] GWG, I think you need to start with explaining the specific consuming code use-cases for "implied h-feed algorithms"
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GWG Microsub requires a standardized jf2 object
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[tantek] All plumbing (protocol, format, algorithm) explorations should start with a clear description of the use-cases
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GWG For example
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[tantek] nope that's more plumbing
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[tantek] a use-case is something that involves one or more users (people) actually getting something done
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[tantek] we should literally not care (no feelings) about protocol X needs Y etc.
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[snarfed] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (115 in all channels)
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Loqi totally
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GWG I personally need to be able to understand what a page means, and everyone speaks a different language, so I need to convert into terms I understand.
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[tantek] users not developers
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[tantek] unless you're building a developer tool like a validator, in which the user *is* a developers
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[tantek] developer*
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[tantek] e.g. some of the indiewebify.me features are developer features
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[eddie] !tell [cleverdevil] I'm setting up a blog for my wife's business and the goal is to use serverless as much as possible for scaling. The first step is setting up a Micropub endpoint to create/edit the blog posts. It's going to be a pretty simple standard blog/microblog. Articles, Note, and Photo posts. In your experiments what was the best database for storing posts at Amazon?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[zach] [eddie] I know that the python based cms he was playing with for lambda he ended up using rds/aurora
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[zach] if I recall correctly he was saying that dynamodb can be difficult for some part
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[eddie] ahh gotcha. That's good to know. Thanks [zach] 🙂
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j4y_funabashi[m] DynamoDB avoids long cold starts because it doesn't live inside the vpc
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j4y_funabashi[m] But it does take a change in mindset if you are used to modelling things relationally
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[zach] yeah, I still want to try and use it for a serverless micropub enabled site just because the costs that come with RDS
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j4y_funabashi[m] I use s3 for session data in okami and it works surprisingly well if you only need key/value queries
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j4y_funabashi[m] One thing to note, if you use api gateway in front of your lambda you can't fully support micropub as it doesn't support square bracket array notation in query strings.
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j4y_funabashi[m] And has a 10mb limit on file uploads
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j4y_funabashi[m] But lambda can now be triggered by an alb so if the things above are an issue for you then you can go that route [eddie]
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[eddie] ohhhh square bracket array notation isn't supported how strange
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[eddie] j4y_funabashi[m] What's an alb?
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j4y_funabashi[m] Application load balancer [eddie]
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[eddie] ohhhh gotcha
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[eddie] So using alb as the trigger rather than api gateway can work around those limitations?
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j4y_funabashi[m] I have not tried lambda triggered from alb so can't say for sure. But yea in theory alb's don't have those limits
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[eddie] ohhhh gotcha. Interesting, I'll definitely look down that route and see what shows up
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[eddie] Thanks
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j4y_funabashi[m] I use containers behind an alb and the file size limits definitely don't exist (not implemented square bracket array notation)
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[snarfed] man all of this ^ is really deep for small personal/business web sites, which rarely have big scaling or flash traffic needs. if the serverless motivation is simplicity or scaling, might be worth taking a step back at some point and reevaluating
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j4y_funabashi[m] [snarfed]: haha yeah I was just thinking that too
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[snarfed] (lambda is also a pretty limited, low level serverless product. many others are better, higher level, and easier to use)
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Zegnat I have noticed that too. Some people at work were looking into lambdas (for scaling) but before everyone figured out how state would be handled, or authorization of loged in users, etc, we were basically just sketching out a good old vps solution again
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[snarfed] if you really do want to write a lot of your own code for a small web site, serverless can definitely be great! but others like heroku, netlify, glitch, zeit, etc are _way_ easier and more appropriate than lambda
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[snarfed] and shared hosting is still a good option, esp for PHP
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[snarfed] even VPS is probably overkill in many cases, too much sysadmin tax
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Zegnat I wonder at how many visitors the usual cutoff is for a shared hosting
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[eddie] snarfed: Fair enough, other options might be more simpler than lambda. I think there are two major goals: not wanting to spend money on resources we're not using (not paying monthly for a VPS when there is very little traffic, and two being able to scale.
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[snarfed] sure. people usually overestimate their scaling and traffic growth needs, even flash traffic, so i'd think hard about that req't realistically. and also CDNs etc are even better for scaling.
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[snarfed] also will your wife's site have a ton of custom code? just a little? none? if the latter, other options will be tuned for whatever CMS you use, so they'll still probably be better than generic serverless
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[snarfed] having said all that, if part of the point is trying new things, go for it! just depends on what you want out of the project
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[eddie] So the site will have some static pages, but it will also have a subscription component/account portal that will all be custom code using Stripe
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[eddie] I'm definitely open to ideas.
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j4y_funabashi[m] S3 static site can handle a lot of traffic
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[snarfed] shopify? etc 😁
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j4y_funabashi[m] And is virtually free
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[snarfed] tons of existing services for the custom code side. if the goal isn't for you personally to play with new code/tools, definitely consider them
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[snarfed] oof yes but again S3 is really low level. other static site hosts are way better products
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[eddie] Yeah, the tricky thing is that places like Shopify, etc, like to charge % on top of the credit card processing, etc. Maybe it's worth it? But as I'm also an engineer since the business is all centered around profit on subscription costs, every percent that can be removed from overhead is pretty big. But I guess I do need to factor in how much money we'd be saving based on how much effort it would take
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[eddie] Definitely lots of food for thought
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[eddie] Thanks guys
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[cleverdevil] Busy in meetings, but to answer your question, [eddie], I’d actually suggest looking at how far you could get just by storing MF2 or JF2 JSON in S3, rather than using a database.
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[cleverdevil] If you have to use a database, RDS is the easiest to deal with.
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[cleverdevil] DynamoDB is a PITA and DocumentDB, while great, is too spendy for a simple personal site.
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[eddie] Ahh okay. Interesting
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Zegnat [cleverdevil]: at what scale would DocumentDV not be “too spendy” anymore?
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[eddie] After looking at some of the options in the above conversation, I have to say while I don't feel like most of them fit, I'm actually thinking Netlify seems promising
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j4y_funabashi[m] So I am building a thing and not sure what to call it. It is kinda the reverse of the current micropub -> static site tools
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j4y_funabashi[m] It pages through your micropub GET q=source endpoint and saves the posts as MD files with front matter
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j4y_funabashi[m] Then runs Hugo and pushes the result to s3
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[snarfed] j4y_funabashi sounds like an exporter
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j4y_funabashi[m] Yeah exporter, backup, site builder thing
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j4y_funabashi[m] The main idea is that the micropub server can be a stand alone data storage thing that is not tied to a website's appearance
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j4y_funabashi[m] Could even open up the idea of micropub as a service
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[snarfed] yes! https://indieweb.org/silo.pub
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j4y_funabashi[m] I guess it is more like webmention.io but for posts
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[KevinMarks] Heroku for node is fairly non-spendy if you want relatively simple set-up compared to lambda.
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[KevinMarks] J4y you could even parse posts for mf2 and then make the md files for Hugo. I was thinking about doing that for my site as it's all manual at the moment
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j4y_funabashi[m] [KevinMarks]: yes that is what it does, grabs all the mf2 from your micropub endpoint, converts it to jf2ish and saves as Hugo post files
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[grantcodes] I planned on making postr a headless micropub endpoint, but haven't got around to writing a module for it yet!
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[KevinMarks] Right, but it could work for a static site too potentially
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j4y_funabashi[m] [KevinMarks]: ah yes, the source of the mf2 doesn't have to be a micropub endpoint, it could crawl any public site
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[KevinMarks] [renem] if you're the only user you can serve the webfinger page statically on your own site - I think aaronpk does that.
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[tantek] [aaronpk] Tracking down some interesting IndieAuth interactions and looks like dbryant and I have discovered an inconsistency between how the wiki (IndieLogin) works and how Aperture and OwnYourGram work with signing-in with IndieAuth
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[tantek] In particular, if he tries to use just his domain to sign-in to the wiki (IndieLogin), it (presumably the WP IndieAuth plugin) does ask to authentica him as his domain.
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[tantek] However when he tries to just his domain to sign-in to Aperture *or* OwnYourGram, the IndieAuth authetication screen shows his domain/blog as the identity that is being authenticated
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[tantek] so *something* is working differently with IndieAuth sign-in on those two
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[tantek] the latter two seem to be errantly changing the identity that he's trying to sign in with from his domain to his domain/blog
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[frank] [grantcodes] I wanted to take the new Together for a spin but it can't seem to load my Aperture-based subscriptions? I revoked old IndieAuth tokens, but no luck. My subs are at https://aperture.p3k.io/microsub/146. When I login I get the message "error loading channels" and nothing else. Any idea how I can move forward?
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[grantcodes] Hmm have you tried logging out and back in again? That should refresh the tokens now (just fixed today)
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[frank] Yes tried that multiple times
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[grantcodes] Hmm odd. Aperture should work fine
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[frank] I do see some GraphQL errors in the developer console
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[frank] 404 not found etc
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[frank] Oh wait a minute...somehow it tries to look for channels not in my Aperture subs but a test I had with Yarns. I checked if I turned that off
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[frank] Let me re-check
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[grantcodes] It should update your endpoints if you login again - it was broken a couple of hours ago
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[frank] You mean login at Together? Because I logged in and out 4-5 times already in the last hour...
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[grantcodes] Yeah in together.
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[frank] Weird. I don't have the Yarns plugin active at my WordPress backend but it tried to access that one. Now I've deleted it and it still gives me GraphQL errors in the dev console
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[frank] You want me to open a bug at Github for it?
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[frank] I'm off to bed so will not test much longer now...
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[grantcodes] Go for it. There should be a link in the console to create a auto filled issue
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[grantcodes] Hmm was there another link? That one shouldn't break everything I don't think
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[frank] Another link for what?
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[frank] I see two links in the console but they seem to give the same auto-filled issue?
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[grantcodes] Huh ok no worries I'll see if I can figure it out!
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[frank] Just updated the part of Operation Info since that was slightly different
[schmarty] joined the channel
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[grantcodes] Turns out I was saving the updated micropub endpoint twice not the microsub endpoint. They look too similar 😂
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aaronpk [tantek]: hmmm that sounds like differences in how they handle http redirects. I thought that Aperture was up to date on that tho