[fluffy]Okay so thoughts about self-hosting comments: Publ is intended to be set up where the site content is managed by a git repo or similar, and not necessarily in a context where the actual request routing is on a system which has wrote access to the repo.
[fluffy]But I’m fine with the thought of making a self-hostable Disqus-like, which stores comments in a database and can be embedded via JS include or via any number of direct accesses to the database through a rendering library.
[tantek]the second is, self-hosting comments received in response to your posts, whether from other people or from yourself. This aspect we document on the /comments page
[tantek]so it can be treated differently, and in some regards really should be (since it may have content that's not entirely trustworthy / acceptable to you etc.)
[fluffy]Yeah in this case I care less about the webmention case and more about the “having a conversation on a single webpage in a way that is accessible to people who aren’t running their own websites” case.
[fluffy]Also being able to have a threaded conversation that doesn’t also result in a rather ludicrous series of links which may go bad if one person’s site goes down or if they decide to remove their entry.
[fluffy]like, yeah, from a purely abstract point of view, webmentions *can* become something useful and great for federated conversations across websites and so on, *but* thinking pragmatically/practically, embedded comments hosted *by the article being commented on* are a better UX as of right now.
aaronpkwebmentions have been a totally fine way for me to _have_ a conversation, but not a great way for me to go back and read that conversation later
[fluffy][aaronpk] well yeah that’s sort of my point, you can fire-and-forget things and people will read and respond but then if any third party person comes into the conversation from the outside they’re going to be confused/grumpy/post
[fluffy]like my concerns aren’t about the future of the indieweb and whatever, my concerns are being able to talk to people semi-privately and not have to worry about unauthorized people stumbling across it (via google search/stalking/etc.)
aaronpkthe one thing you can do that will help avoid the too-many-accounts problem is let people log in via indieauth/twitter/google/whatever so that they don't have to make a new account on your site
[fluffy]but in any case yeah I have exactly 0 interest in maintaining my own user database. if I were to build my own comment engine of course I’d build its auth stuff on top of Authl. I mean, that exists specifically to avoid the too-many-accounts problem *and* to eventually provide a simpler UX 🙂
[tantek][fluffy] TBH this is an artificial conflation of orthogonal aspects: "care less about the webmention case and more about the “having a conversation on a single webpage in a way that is accessible to people who aren’t running their own websites” "
[tantek]the point about hosting "other people's content" still stands, whether that content is received via webmention, some other protocol, or someone random typing into a web form on your site
[fluffy][tantek] my point is that the UX isn’t there for what I’m trying to do using Webmention, and trying to get to the point of where the UX is sufficient takes way more steps than I’m willing to wait for
[fluffy]I don’t care about protocol, I care about UX. I’m not conflating anything, I’m stating that Webmention simply doesn’t, at this time, provide the UX I need.
[fluffy]and getting to the point that it does requires a LOT of stuff to happen within my friends circle that is simply not going to happen any time soon
[fluffy]the ideological problems of “I host other peoples’ comments on my website” are way less important to me than the practical problems of “I need these conversations to remain private”
[fluffy]like I don’t even see the where-it’s-hosted problem as a problem in the first place, because these conversations are around my blog post, not around the people posting them
[tantek]perhaps when it's private, there is some sort of (implied at least) allow list about who can comment (see comments) and thus the "hosting other people's content" is less of an issue
[tantek]that your agency over deleting your blog post should also have the authority to delete their comment, not just from your post, but from existence
[fluffy]like, at any given time my blog entries might be visible to some friends and not others. Later down the road I am likely to change the access controls so that new friends have access to old stuff, and removing access to people who are no longer on good terms or whatever
[tantek]I think like all social constructs / interfaces, there will be far more challenges than can be dismissed with something as seemingly simple as "because it’s part of the prior conversation"
aaronpkit sounds like [fluffy] has a very specific workflow in mind and is looking for a tool to facilitate it. this doesn't sound like it's up for general debate on whether this is the "ideal" workflow.
[fluffy]I’m not providing a forum for them, I’m providing a place for *me* to have conversation with the people I want to tell personal/private things to
[tantek]as a commenter, if I knew that my comments would be seen by new folks in the future who could be anyone, I would write very differently than if it was only a fixed set of people in time
[fluffy]the expecation they already (should) have is that they are writing comments *for my benefit* based on who I have determined to be part of my friend group
[fluffy]I’m just telling my personal details to them, and hoping for their responses to be helpful to me, for whatever thing has me going into a mental-health death spiral at the moment
[fluffy]the way I built user auth in Publ means that someone who uses Publ *could* reveal details about what groups a person is in, although I don’t expose that on my own site because it’s not helpful to begin with
[fluffy]all that people who see private entries on my site can tell is: they have access to this entry, and other people who have posted comments are presumably able to see that entry as well.
[fluffy]the access control in Publ is incredibly fine-grained, and you can define as many access groups as you want, and also include and exclude people based on group memberships or specific identities
[fluffy]and I have a little dashboard which shows me who’s signed in recently and what auth inclusion/exclusion has happened recently, so I can see if I need to adjust my ACLs or entries or whatever
[fluffy]right now I only support mailto: and Mastodon identities, but I intend to generalize Mastodon to a bunch of OAuthy things (particularly Twitter)
jgmac1106yeah but it could work as well a little firefox micropub extension I can turn on and off, maybe a popup when the timer is done for me to enter a progress report…or for reminder webmention, you just publish a reminder with a time limit…then after X time you get a webmention to that reminder to trigger notification
jeremycherfasMaybe if it actually pops up a box in which to type progress and then micropubs that, it could, I suppose, keep you in flow if that is where you are.
jgmac1106because then I wouldn’t have to log in to note what I was doing, a popup timer could prompt me “How did you spend your tomato?” and then that could be sent as a webmention to the h-event (if my to-do list was an h-event)
jgmac1106for now I just use the #pinboard tag with a mix of private and public posts, the webmention reminder client is just away to trigger a notification to myself. So if I added an entry, “Get gets at pool at 14:00 at 13:45 I would get an automatic webmention as a reminder to that note
ZegnatFor it to be sent as a webmention it will first need to be posted to someplace as a note. Or maybe a reply? Do the h-events get created by the same app prior to starting the timer? It is an interesting idea, but I am not sure these are the right building blocks
jgmac1106well I am not sure a to-do list should be an h-event but I set up each day in my todo as an h-event and then just has a bulleted list…for #pinboard every note is an h-entry link any note, both have endpoints…yeah just thinking about it and tonz post on the Indie (non AI) assistant
jgmac1106I am applying for grants and like to keep tally of folks interested in side work. Here is the rub….you need to have or be a legal entity, especially if not US citizen.
[tantek]when I manually used the Bridgy Publish web UI to preview then publish, it "worked" however had to do some sort of Twitter OAuth dance that seemed to automatically "work" (get approval then redirect back to Bridgy)
[prtksxna] [Lewis_Cowles] I’ve been using https://mermaidjs.github.io/ recently. Quite happy with it 🙂
[fluffy] [snarfed] interesting that it 500s, could you submit a bug against https://github.com/PlaidWeb/Authl so I can investigate later? Thanks!
[tantek] TIL: AtomPub never made it past "PROPOSED STANDARD" https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5023
[Lewis_Cowles] [fluffy] how about https://github.com/posativ/isso
[KevinMarks] [fluffy] is what you want from disqus a NIPSA flag under your own control?
jgmac1106 tonz I have thought a lot about the personalized assistant, though I am android so my workflow might be different. Currently I have a #pinboard https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/content/all/?q=%23pinboard and I fooled around with to-do list a lot…until i fail…early and often
jeremycherfas Maybe if it actually pops up a box in which to type progress and then micropubs that, it could, I suppose, keep you in flow if that is where you are.
Loqi isso is a commenting server similar to disqus https://indieweb.org/isso
aaronpk they did just post this a couple days ago https://help.flickr.com/en_us/changes-to-login-rkF1q3cIV