#dev 2019-12-02

2019-12-02 UTC
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gRegorLove gives Loqi a bad webmention
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Loqi gives back the bad webmention
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[fluffy] oh yeah aaronpk did you see the conversation jacky and I had late last night regarding a stray webmention from the http version of my site via webmention.io? I was wondering if it’d be possible to find out what IP address it came from, which might help to solve the mystery
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aaronpk I missed that
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[fluffy] The mention was to https://v2.jacky.wtf//post/indieweb-challenge-2019 and came from both http and https versions of https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/3640-My-IndieWeb-Challenge-2020-aspirations. My own mention logs show that I only sent one for https, at a different time than Jacky’s thing showed it as having come in.
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Loqi [Jacky Alciné] My IndieWeb Challenge!
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aaronpk let me see if I have the IP address in the logs
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[fluffy] all of my native mentions should have come from 96.126.101.56 or 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:b0de
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aaronpk i'm confused, jacky's site doesn't use webmention.io
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[fluffy] it doesn’t?
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aaronpk no, there are no webmentions stored in webmention.io for his site at all
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[fluffy] huh, so it doesn’t
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[fluffy] let me recheck my logs, I was probably way-brainfarting at 3 AM 🙂
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[fluffy] INFO:pushl.webmentions:Sending Webmention https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/3640-My-IndieWeb-Challenge-2020-aspirations -> https://jacky.wtf/ [https://webmention.io/jacky.wtf/webmention]
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aaronpk that's to his home page
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[fluffy] oh, that’s the mention to his home page
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[fluffy] yeah
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aaronpk I see that one in the logs, and I see only one webmention from the https version of your post
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[fluffy] okay well regardless my logs only show mentions going to v2.jacky.wtf from the https version, not http
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aaronpk also apparently I am not logging IP addresses
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[fluffy] which is as intended. Pushl respects rel=“canonical” after all
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[fluffy] ah, oh well.
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[fluffy] Okay so the mystery deepens, what the hell sent the webmention from the http version of my post to his post?
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[fluffy] but *didn’t* send it to his homepage…
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[fluffy] and, for that matter, sent the https version of my ‘like’ post but not the http version of that
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aaronpk that does mean it might be in his logs
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[fluffy] My ‘like’ post mentions goes through the exact same machinery as reply/mention posts
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[fluffy] so it could possibly be something from indieweb.xyz or news.indieweb.org? those got pung from my blog entry but not from my ‘like’ entry
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aaronpk those wouldn't send webmentions
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[fluffy] yeah and even if they did, I’d only send mentions from the https version
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[fluffy] so I mean there’s no way either of those sites would have known about the http version
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[fluffy] gah this is so bizarre
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aaronpk I see that telegraph sent webmentions from your http versions
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[fluffy] oh, interesting
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[fluffy] I don’t use telegraph
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aaronpk did jacky set up the superfeedr telegraph thing?
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[fluffy] What’s the superfeedr telegraph thing?
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[fluffy] Maybe I set something up with telegraph back i nthe day but forgot
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aaronpk https://telegraph.p3k.io/superfeedr
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[fluffy] AH!
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aaronpk I think jacky set it up for his site
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aaronpk which means something is being made aware of your http addresses, and superfeedr is finding those
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[fluffy] okay then that makes sense. I have people subscribing to both http and https of my blog feed using superfeedr, and I do ping both http and https there as a result
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[fluffy] since like, websub needs to know about both of them
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[fluffy] well, mystery solved. Now the question is: what to do about it?
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[fluffy] I am purposeful about supporting both http and https on my feeds, and I wouldn’t want WebSub to be an https-only thing
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[fluffy] It’d be trivial for me to turn off http WebSub support though, and probably not make that big a difference
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[tantek] I have so many feelings & opinions about so much of the thread spawning from this but for now I’ll jut leave this here for 🍿🍿 dev-value https://twitter.com/larsrosenquist/status/1200765420543840257
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@larsrosenquist YAML: the result of people ignoring the lessons from JSON (the result of people ignoring the lessons from XML). Now we’re ‘coding’ infra with 3000 line typeless, indentationsensitive markup, escaping it, then embed it in another 3000 line typeless, indentationsensitive file. (twitter.com/_/status/1200765420543840257)
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aaronpk oof
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[fluffy] Enh, that’s kind of a disingenuous take given that YAML and JSON came out at roughly the same time
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aaronpk became popular at different times tho
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[fluffy] true.
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[fluffy] also https://twitter.com/larsrosenquist/status/1200766827145641985 um there’s this thing called “node.js” that maybe he’s heard about
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@larsrosenquist Would you code your infra in JavaScript? Sounds terrible right? Then why go with YAML which is even more terrible? (twitter.com/_/status/1200766827145641985)
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[tantek] Aaronpk so many gems in that thread tree
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[tantek] Speaking of gems
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[tantek] feed file << Example implied criticism, silent unnoticed failure of invisible non-DRY content: “oops I just realized my photos *feed has been broken for a while” - aaronpk 2019-12-01 indieweb-dev
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Loqi ok, I added "Example implied criticism, silent unnoticed failure of invisible non-DRY content: “oops I just realized my photos *feed has been broken for a while” - aaronpk 2019-12-01 indieweb-dev" to the "See Also" section of /feed_file https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=66804&oldid=40578
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk my micro.blog followers are probably about to get a bunch of photos all in a row now
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aaronpk ironically the reason it was broken was because I generate my jsonfeed by parsing my microformats HTML to avoid coding everything twice
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aaronpk and when I redid my photos page to be a grid, I didn't include the published date because there is no visible place for it
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aaronpk so my mf2->jsonfeed converter failed because it was expecting a published date
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[tantek] Aaronpk, similarly I’m basically tweaking / fixing my separate code path for my Atom feed *specifically* to optimize for micro.blog consumption
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aaronpk now a new side effect is that micro.blog won't get the captions in my photos anymore because they're not on that page anymore
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[tantek] Aaronpk check out how [Rose] solved that
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[tantek] With her photo grid
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[tantek] It’s quite clever
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[tantek] She built it at Berlin2
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[tantek] (Her photogrid has progressive disclosure captions IIRC)
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[tantek] (Maybe dates too)
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aaronpk hm I can't find her photo grid page
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[tantek] Anyway, larger point being, there are UI solutions to such things (properties invisible by default but still discoverable/visible thru gestures)
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[tantek] Try the demos notes from Berlin2
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aaronpk nothing there? https://indieweb.org/2019/Berlin2/Demos
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[tantek] Chat archives from demo day?
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aaronpk no links in the chat archive
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[tantek] Dang I know she showed it!
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[tantek] You’ll have to wait til she wakes up
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[tantek] Though I think [schmarty] had a clever photo grid captions UI solution too
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aaronpk oh yeah his appear on hover
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[schmarty] It's not mobile friendly at this point but you can see it at https://mmg.re/photos
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[schmarty] Oops I don't https on my short domain
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[schmarty] http://mmg.re/photos
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[schmarty] lol this comedy of errors. "photos" is exactly six characters and gets picked up by my newbase60 date decoder.
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[schmarty] https://martymcgui.re/photos/
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digitalice hello!
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digitalice Freelance developer here, looking for gigs
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[fluffy] hmm, I just thought of a weird corner case that my site causes in webmentions and there’s no clear solution… if I change the title on an entry, that also changes its URL. Which means a new set of webmentions gets sent out. But nothing sends out a new webmention from the old URL, so nothing will ever, like, update that.
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[fluffy] I guess this feeds back into my old webmention endpoint wishlist
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[fluffy] in principle, in my setup, Pushl will see that the old URL disappeared and so it’ll try to re-send mentions from it (assuming that it was deleted), but when it goes to check the URL for targets it’ll get redirected, and nothing in Pushl is smart enough to handle that case.
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[fluffy] I guess that’s a thing I could add though
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aaronpk I have the same problem
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mblaney I tombstone the old page and send webmentions then.
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jacky what is tombstone
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Loqi tombstone is a replacement entry with null or marked data for a deleted entry that is especially useful in h-feeds since it is defined and supported https://indieweb.org/tombstone
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aaronpk my old url sends a redirect, so I need to get it to send a webmention from the old url too
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takev[m] Is there a tool to validate MF2 markup? I'm writing a .NET library for handling MF2 parsing and serializing.
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takev[m] And I'd like to validate it with an external tool as well.
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aaronpk depends on what you mean by validate
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aaronpk i'd say there are three layers:
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aaronpk 1) use a microformats parser to visually check that the parsed output looks like what you intend: https://php.microformats.io
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aaronpk 2) use https://xray.p3k.app to see if some consuming apps find what you are intending to publish
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aaronpk 3) use https://monocle.p3k.io/preview to see what your feed looks like in a reader UI
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jacky what are microformats
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Loqi microformats are extensions to HTML for marking up people, organizations, events, locations, blog posts, products, reviews, resumés, recipes etc https://indieweb.org/microformats
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jacky what is my website is your API
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jacky growls at loqi
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[fluffy] so now Pushl supports redirections 🙂
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aaronpk That was fast
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jacky TIL that Quill shows more confirmation info when you've signed in now
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gRegorLove takev[m], for parsers, there's also a test suite https://github.com/microformats/tests
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Loqi [microformats] tests: Microformats test suite
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takev[m] Thanks!
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[fluffy] and I see that Jacky’s endpoint doesn’t track ’em
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[fluffy] I wonder if any webmention endpoints do
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[fluffy] sigh, and my late-breaking bugfix ended up breaking rel=“canonical” support, go figure
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[fluffy] so I guess news.indieweb.org doesn’t look at rel=“canonical”, huh 🙂
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[fluffy] (fortunately that wasn’t in the released version)
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aaronpk I don't think rel canonical is mentioned in the webmention spec
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aaronpk what behavior would you expect to happen?
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jacky comes bakc in
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jacky what am I not tracking?
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jacky ahh
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jacky yo so aaronpk
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jacky re: your p3k suite of stuff
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jacky when you do the sign in flow and you notice that people don't have something like microsub or micropub
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jacky do you point them anywhere?
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jacky (doesn't have a page immediately to test it but he will)
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jacky I'm thinking about adding more explicit documentation
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jacky hmm looks like you kinda do (at least on indielogin)
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[tantek] Article from chat that I think every dev needs to read when they consider building things “for other people”: https://jenngineering.glitch.me/hello-world-except-keybase/
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[tantek] General point: no, adding your technology fairy dust (crypto, pgp, blockchain, “verification” etc) will not solve fundamentally human/design problems, and may actually make them worse
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[tantek] See also, maybe beta test with a more diverse set of users before launching “to everyone”? See also Google Buzz
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aaronpk jacky: I've done it a couple different ways. Quill leans heavily toward providing detailed info on what to do next to get things working
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jacky hmm okay
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jacky I've leaned on linking out for that
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jacky for example https://lwa.black.af/sessions/check?me=https://anildash.com
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jacky versus
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jacky for example https://lwa.black.af/sessions/check?me=https://v2.jacky.wtf
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jacky it might be a bit more verbose
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jacky well not _might_
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jacky it is, lol
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aaronpk Yeah that's pretty good
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aaronpk I think I do something like that with monocle
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aaronpk quill was originally supposed to be just a tool for people to debug their micropub servers
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jacky lol they grow up so fast
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jacky oof I should actually add the URLs for 'enabling' micropub on one's site
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[tantek] lol I happened to check the noblockchain hashtag on Twitter and it's got so many unintended lulz https://twitter.com/hashtag/noblockchain
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[tantek] I'll stick with (no # blockchain) I think just to make a proper point
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[tantek] in particular when I use hashtags that happened to be noisy with blockchain BS
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[tantek] like this: https://twitter.com/t/status/1201540828193148929
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@t @jmckenty @starbuxman thanks for the citation! You’re right, needs a refresh, and updates in particular for Slack & GitHub (using threads, @-mentioning, etc.). My GitHub advice will start with #OwnYourData (no #blockchain) per https://indieweb.org/issue ... https://tantek.com/t53s1 (twitter.com/_/status/1201540828193148929)
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gRegorLove jacky: LWA is looking good! I get an internal server error trying to read my Twitter channel, ID A2aoN6LSvQ5Mi70STimN7zqX
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jacky oof
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jacky thank you!
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gRegorLove Only feed in there is from Twitter Atom
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gRegorLove In console I'm seeing websocket errors "Unexpected response code: 400" but I don't think it's causing any UI issues. Maybe uBlock is blocking something?
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jacky nah that's a bug
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jacky I'm going to throw in the towel and add sentry lol
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jacky it's 2019 - I should not be splunking in the logs like this
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gRegorLove what is websocket?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "websocket" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "websocket is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky literally setting up a self hosted version of sentry right now lol
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jacky is doing this because he's already paying for a server that's like 10% utilized
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gRegorLove Internal server error on https://lwa.black.af/feeds/preview too
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gRegorLove jacky++ it really is great despite my bug reports, haha
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Loqi jacky has 21 karma in this channel over the last year (92 in all channels)
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jacky cries in pre-pre-alpha
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gRegorLove Maybe I'll work on moving indiewebify.me off Silex this month. It's not maintained anymore and it requires symfony libs that have a CVE now
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gRegorLove author suggests symfony/flex instead https://symfony.com/doc/current/setup/flex.html
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[schmarty] gRegorLove++ that sounds great!
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Loqi gRegorLove has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (61 in all channels)
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jacky ayee that'd be dope
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jacky def something I link people to a lot
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gRegorLove This PR of mine has been reviewed but not merged, should get that done first: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/80
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[tantek] takes a look
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[tantek] hmm, "note" is useful for many folks who include a brief self description / mini bio
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[tantek] this is in templates/validate-h-card.html.php line ~95 in the diff view
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[tantek] gRegorLove other than that, looks good
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[tantek] would you like me to make that formal in a review or ... ?
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gRegorLove takes a look
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[tantek] e.g. keep the line(s) with "Add a note/bio!"
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[tantek] and maybe replace with something more clearly actionable like
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[tantek] "Got a brief bio like a Twitter/Instagram bio? Add it to your own h-card as a note property!"
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gRegorLove Makes sense
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[tantek] we want to help guide people toward creating an h-card that is semantically a replacement for what they typically have on social media
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[tantek] cool
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gRegorLove I can test with Zegnat's profile since note is the one property he doesn't use :)
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Zegnat Happy to oblige
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[tantek] wow
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aaronpk Always the edge case
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gRegorLove Heh, guess we should update it so Travis runs on something newer than PHP5.5 too :D
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gRegorLove I don't remember where it's deployed, we should check what PHP version is running there
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gRegorLove looks like appengine
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aaronpk They have at least 7.2 available
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Zegnat I never found a good way to display a note on my site.
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Zegnat The joys of playing with GitHub actions for the first time: the maintainers of the action breaking your setup https://github.com/shalzz/zola-deploy-action/issues/5
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Loqi [Zegnat] #5 Latest commit breaks building without flags
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gRegorLove ok, trying it with php72. That's what my dev copy is running so hope it goes smoothly
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gRegorLove tantek: updated https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/80
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Loqi [gRegorLove] #80 Update h-card validator
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