#dev 2019-12-23

2019-12-23 UTC
vika_nezrimaya, [tantek] and [dmitshur] joined the channel
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[dmitshur]
```$ curl -s https://dmitri.shuralyov.com | grep authorization_endpoint
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[dmitshur]
ok, _drumroll_, here goes me signing in to https://indieweb.org for the very first time via my artisanal hand-crafted IndieAuth authz endpoint! \o/ (first time on the real prod instance of my website, I'm not counting when I tested with staging instances)
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[dmitshur]
<link href="/api/indieauth/authorization" rel="authorization_endpoint">```
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[dmitshur]
it worked swell.
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[tantek]
wow that's really good wording
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[tantek]
can you upload that screenshot to the wiki? Worth documenting it on /IndieAuth as an example
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[dmitshur]
thanks. I made some last minute simplifications to the consent presentation with the goal of displaying as little redundant information as possible by default. to maximize signal/noise ratio. to get more info (e.g., the full client_id URL or me URL) I can hover, but it's nicer not to see extra stuff by default.
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[dmitshur]
for similar reasons, I only display the redirect url when its on a different host than the client_id.
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[dmitshur]
this was the noisier consent screen from just 15 mins ago: http://instantshare.win/l410u7yswk09.png
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[dmitshur]
worth noting, the reason I'm comfortable not displaying scheme is because I outright reject (aka do not support) http, so I know it's always https
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[dmitshur]
(but if I did support http, I would always include it when shoring a URL.)
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[dmitshur]
showing*
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[dmitshur]
[tantek] I'll add myself to https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth#IndieWeb_Examples after I push the code to `master` , so I can link to it with the date when I started having an indieauth server.
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[dmitshur]
for the screenshot of the consent screen, I'm not seeing a good place to add it on https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth. do you see a good place? if not, I can add it to https://indieweb.org/consent_screen (under a new "Examples" section) instead.
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vika_nezrimaya
Ok what are a good authorization and authentication schemes that are not passwords and not WebAuthn (since I don't have a token like YubiKey)? jacky.wtf's Koype uses TOTP but it's not very secure, aaronparecki.com outsources everything to Okta (and I wasn't able to find a post with a detailed explanation of how its set up on his site :c), I used a password back in 2018 probably but who would use a password in 2020?
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vika_nezrimaya
ping aaronpk (talking about authentication - wasn't able to find a post with a detailed explanation of passwordless auth on aaronparecki.com, maybe you have a link?)
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[dmitshur]
can you elaborate on why you wouldn't want to get a physical security key? if not YubiKey, then another like it?
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vika_nezrimaya
I want one! It's just that I can't find one in Russia and I'm not sure if I can get one shipped from overseas
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vika_nezrimaya
ugh living in a third world country is so... i don't know the word for it but I know a bunch of russian swearwords I would use
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vika_nezrimaya
I hope you get the idea :3
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[dmitshur]
I understand
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[dmitshur]
is I'd also hope it is possible to get one shipped.. or are there some restrictions on security keys specifically?
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vika_nezrimaya
I don't know
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vika_nezrimaya
but yandex market shows nothing for "yubikey" so I assume there aren't a lot of resellers
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vika_nezrimaya
maybe Amazon could help
[fluffy] joined the channel
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vika_nezrimaya
oh there is a distributor
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vika_nezrimaya
except there is no information for delivery prices
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[dmitshur]
sadly, https://cloud.google.com/titan-security-key/ says "Ships to addresses in Canada, France, Japan, the UK, and the US."
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vika_nezrimaya
already read it
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vika_nezrimaya
tried to find alternatives
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vika_nezrimaya
oh well looks like I'm gonna try to ship it overseas somewhen next year
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vika_nezrimaya
so bad that "somewhen" isn't a real word
leg and [snarfed] joined the channel
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[snarfed]
vika_nezrimaya: "sometime" 😁
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[KevinMarks]
Isn't Russia technically 2nd world?
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[snarfed]
there's a definition?!
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GWG
aaronpk: would you have a moment for an information request?
snarfed and [dmitshur] joined the channel
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aaronpk
oo congrats
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[dmitshur]
thanks Aaron!
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[dmitshur]
[tantek] I added a screenshot to https://indieweb.org/consent_screen, I hope it's helpful
[tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek]
dmitshur++
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Loqi
dmitshur has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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[dmitshur]
Does Malcolm Blaney (https://mblaney.xyz/) hang around here? I'm not seeing him in user auto-complete, but maybe the slack integration is incomplete
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Loqi
Malcolm Blaney
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aaronpk
I think he's on IRC not slack
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[dmitshur]
what's his irc username?
snarfed joined the channel
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@dmitshur
↩️ My Sunday was great! I implemented an IndieAuth authorization endpoint on my personal site today. See https://github.com/shurcooL/home/commit/75d6ace272f1addb0a14b71da9a62169850ae222 for details.
(twitter.com/_/status/1208981692779810816)
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KartikPrabhu
[dmitshur]: I think his IRC username is mblaney
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marinin[m]
dmitshur++, looks great
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Loqi
dmitshur has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (10 in all channels)
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marinin[m]
what is file sharing
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "file sharing" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "file sharing is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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marinin[m]
File sharing is sharing a link to a file, often a screenshot. It’s important to control sharing URLs due to [site-deaths] of 3rd-party sharing services
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@GlobeNewsExp
Webmention: Simple web standard to notify any URL when mentioned across the web by https://webmention.net #GlobeNewsExpress #News
(twitter.com/_/status/1209023188606304256)
swentel, [Rose], uniquerockrz and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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@simonhearne
I'm having trouble getting webmentions to work, mentions aren't getting from http://brid.gy to http://webmention.io -> bridgy posts return HTTP 400 like https://brid.gy/post/twitter/simonhearne/status/1204876325670006784 resulting in a failed webmention: https://webmention.io/simonhearne.com/webmention/CfTx7-IX168FVG1hu3E8 Any ideas #IndieWeb friends?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209053752461795333)
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@simonhearne
I'm having trouble getting webmentions to work, mentions aren't getting from http://brid.gy to http://webmention.io -> bridgy posts return HTTP 400 like https://brid.gy/post/twitter/simonhearne/status/1204876325670006784 resulting in a failed webmention: https://webmention.io/simonhearne.com/webmention/CfTx7-IX168FVG1hu3E8 Any ideas #IndieWeb friends?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209053752461795333)
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@BekoPharm
↩️ Did you connect your Twitter acc. to Bridgy? Also I can not find a share intent on your post. Bridgy won't process without share intent as microformats pointing to "/publish/twitter" - see https://brid.gy/about
(twitter.com/_/status/1209060598245404672)
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@simonhearne
↩️ Thanks for the response! Yep all connected: https://brid.gy/twitter/simonhearne I need a share intent on the post even to accept incoming webmentions?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209062711822356480)
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@simonhearne
↩️ Thanks for the response! Yep all connected: https://brid.gy/twitter/simonhearne I need a share intent on the post even to accept incoming webmentions?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209062711822356480)
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@BekoPharm
↩️ Nope, for incoming you need a u-syndication url to your existing Twitter post on your blog post. This is picked up by bridgy and triggers backfeed as webmention. Your site does not list any syndication urls: http://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsimonhearne.com%2F2019%2F2020-predictions%2F
(twitter.com/_/status/1209063913863733248)
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jamietanna[m]
vika_nezrimaya I asked Aaron about this recently and he shared that he uses the Okta Factors API directly for it https://aaronparecki.com/2019/11/25/14/
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] The trick is to use Okta's "Factor API" directly, not using the normal login API. https://developer.okta.com/docs/reference/api/factors/#getting-started-with-the-factors-api
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@JamieTanna
↩️ Yeah I think this thread _should_ be 400ing as there's nothing in the thread to syndicate to - if you post a link to one of your posts in this thread you can then see if interactions with it spark a Webmention?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209079295441809408)
asymptotically and [jgmac1106] joined the channel
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[jgmac1106]
What is pdf?
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Loqi
PDF is an abbreviation typically for either Portable Document Format (see pdf;dr), or Personal Democracy Forum, an annual conference where several IndieWeb and microformats related talks & sessions have been held https://indieweb.org/PDF
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://gds.blog.gov.uk/2018/07/16/why-gov-uk-content-should-be-published-in-html-and-not-pdf/" to the "See Also" section of /2014/PDF https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67509&oldid=11846
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[jgmac1106]
For those who were asking g about superkuh's criticism of webmentions they go into detail here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21858911
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Loqi
[pcr910303] Webmention: Simple web standard to notify any URL when mentioned across the web
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GWG
I saw that.
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GWG
So the complaint is a concept designed to be incredibly simple to implement isn't complicated enough? And that dynamic is bad for interactive content?
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[KevinMarks]
I gave him 3 external services with examples and pointed out that they were open source
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@JamieTanna
↩️ looking at the `location` field returned: https://webmention.io/simonhearne/webmention/m3wMii_hkDTI9l_XrCC_ it shows that it's failing to send to the `target` - I believe that needs to be your full domain name, i.e. http://simonhearne.com not just simonhearn if you update that in your Webmention endpoint that may do it
(twitter.com/_/status/1209111812198805506)
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@simonhearne
↩️ @JamieTanna It still doesn't work from http://brid.gy though, hence the frustration :)
(twitter.com/_/status/1209114520326754307)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ Hopefully that works - if so, we can get the landing page for https://webmention.io/ to make it more clear that the `username` is your domain
(twitter.com/_/status/1209125555511189504)
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@simonhearne
↩️ Yep that's done the trick, plus a disable / re-enable twitter and we're set. Agree it might help to make it clear what the http://webmention.io username should be explicitly, even if it just helps numpties like me :) Thanks for the help!
(twitter.com/_/status/1209126555261263873)
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jamietanna[m]
FYI I've raised https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/pull/144 to add some more docs about the username to resolve ☝️ for future folks
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Loqi
[jamietanna] #144 Clarify that the username should be a domain name
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jamietanna[m]
Thanks for the merge aaronpk! If you're in the merging mood would you mind having a look at https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/pull/94 ? 😸
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Loqi
[jamietanna] #94 Add support for parsing MF2 JSON
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aaronpk
Looks good at a quick glance but I probably won't have time today to properly try it out and merge it
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jamietanna[m]
NP - I realise it's getting especially close to Xmas so happy to leave it until next year!
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aaronpk
I don't do Xmas but I am doing a small construction project today :-)
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@edent
↩️ I'm hijacking this thread to see if I've got webmentions working on my WordPress site :-) Look at this fab blog post https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/12/the-future-of-the-web-isnt-the-web/
(twitter.com/_/status/1209137867076841473)
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@edent
↩️ @BekoPharm @JamieTanna @simonhearne Haha! Just got your webmention. Still nothing from Twitter. Do I need to manually configure that?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209139526549020672)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ Looks like something weird is happening: https://telegraph.p3k.io/webmention/1310aMtBi569blVvFe/details says my bookmark from the other day is accepted Do you maybe only have replies being displayed? I've got likes of your posts not showing up, either
(twitter.com/_/status/1209140330005762049)
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jamietanna[m]
aaronpk: fair enough! What sort of construction? Tech/physical?
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[tantek]
Sound like chat material ;)
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aaronpk
jamietanna[m]: #indieweb-chat
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@BekoPharm
↩️ You still need #microformats support in your template @simonhearne - without there won't be much use for webmentions at all.
(twitter.com/_/status/1209144651053178880)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ The client-side Javascript library I use (from @fluffy) is https://github.com/PlaidWeb/webmention.js and it's really great as it means you don't have to think too much about how to get the data out of http://Webmention.io's API and render it - I'd recommend giving that a go as a start
(twitter.com/_/status/1209146207160791040)
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@edent
↩️ @simonhearne @BekoPharm @JamieTanna Aha! Just received 30+ webmentions from Bridgy.
(twitter.com/_/status/1209146265948344320)
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@BekoPharm
↩️ http://microformats.org/2014/03/05/getting-started-with-microformats2 - no idea about your CMS but there is probably a solutions already. Webmention makes use of microformats. Bridgy works both ways. Other people using Webmentions can make use of your microformats and send you mentions as well. Without it's a pain.
(twitter.com/_/status/1209146706136354816)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ @edent Nice! Are you able to see if you've received webmentions from http://www.jvt.me? There should be a few likes/bookmarks
(twitter.com/_/status/1209155642348441600)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ So the webmentions I've sent have been direct to your WordPress webmention setup not via http://Brid.gy (which only manages i.e. Twitter interactions) Looking at https://telegraph.p3k.io/webmention/1310aMtBi569blVvFe/details it's been accepted, but the comment isn't displayed - could it be config to change?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209159221595529221)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ So the webmentions I've sent have been direct to your WordPress webmention setup not via http://Brid.gy (which only manages i.e. Twitter interactions) Looking at https://telegraph.p3k.io/webmention/1310aMtBi569blVvFe/details it's been accepted, but the comment isn't displayed - could it be config to change?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209159221595529221)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ That is, config in your webmention plugin? Maybe it doesn't show everything as comments? Do you have a list of webmentions received in your admin interface? (I've not used the WP Webmention stuff before)
(twitter.com/_/status/1209159675956121600)
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@edent
↩️ @JamieTanna I only installed it a few hours ago. Could you please resend the webmention?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209162276948922368)
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@edent
↩️ Hmm. Nothing's come through. Wonder how I've managed to misconfigure it :-) Lots from Bridgy. Guess I need to manually add webmention .io support?
(twitter.com/_/status/1209166098500902919)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ You shouldn't need both http://webmention.io and the webmention endpoint in WordPress - if you're receiving from http://brid.gy that's good at least, if you're able to join our chat groups someone more knowledgeable on the WP front should be able to help
(twitter.com/_/status/1209169594734305280)
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@JamieTanna
↩️ You shouldn't need both http://webmention.io and the webmention endpoint in WordPress - if you're receiving from http://brid.gy that's good at least, if you're able to join our chat groups someone more knowledgeable on the WP front should be able to help
(twitter.com/_/status/1209169594734305280)
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vika_nezrimaya
I think I've hit a roadblock that's a lot worse than "don't know which auth method to use". It's the fact that Twitter API requires client secrets, ergo to set it up one needs to register an app with Twitter and for me it's a one-time thing because I just need to get the list of users the user using my app is following!
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@pauljacobson
I can't remember how to mention someone using Webmentions on my WordPress site. @ChrisAldrich, did you write something about this? #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/1209193853007347712)
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vika_nezrimaya
I'm working on an onboarding procedure for Kittybox and I want it to pull the list of users the user is following (with their permission ofc) and import it into the microsub endpoint
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vika_nezrimaya
Would it be ok if I created a kinda centralized service for doing that? with an option for self-hosting of course
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vika_nezrimaya
I'm just thinking of privacy concerns
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vika_nezrimaya
would someone be ok with revealing their followers list to a potentionally untrusted service?
[snarfed] joined the channel
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[snarfed]
vika_nezrimaya: does your app have any users whose accounts are protected? if not, their following lists are all public anyway
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vika_nezrimaya
My app can potentially have any user
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[snarfed]
(also, just to check, that concern sounds unrelated to how you manage secrets, right?)
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vika_nezrimaya
Unrelated. Ultimately it will be stored in the user's Microsub server
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vika_nezrimaya
It's an importer which parses your social accounts and imports them (optionally adding IndieWeb identites of users (rel=me parsing) to lists) to your Microsub
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[snarfed]
if a twitter user doesn't trust your app, they probably shouldn't/wouldn't used it at all, right? so this might still not be a real concern
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vika_nezrimaya
I want to build it in Kittybox
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vika_nezrimaya
But if I build it into Kittybox, the user has to receive an API client id client secret and all that stuff
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[snarfed]
ah ok. yeah then this is the standard tradeoff. either you manage a single twitter app (client id/secret) yourself, which they have to trust, or they make a twitter app themselves, which doesn't require trust, but is much more difficult for the average user
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[snarfed]
generally, if you're running a service, you manage the API app(s) yourself. if you're distributing software that other people install, you have them create their own app(s)
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[schmarty]
and getting more difficult by the day, as twitter continues to restrict developer access.
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vika_nezrimaya
this is so hard, IndieAuth is SO MUCH EASIER >.<
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vika_nezrimaya
This all is one-time, maybe I could explain on the onboarding page how to do that and make the user paste client id and secret in the page?
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[snarfed]
(which is sadly out of date now that twitter apps require review)
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vika_nezrimaya
Twitter apps WAIT WHAAAAT?!?!#!
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[snarfed]
also what known and many wordpress plugins do too. most installed software in general
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[snarfed]
uh yeah, welcome to 2018 twitter API 😐
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vika_nezrimaya
wait, Twitter apps require review now oh wow
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[snarfed]
hey these silos can be annoying sometimes, i wonder if we should cut down on using them and try doing our own thing instead :troll:
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vika_nezrimaya
oh wow they require """developer accounts""" now
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vika_nezrimaya
I'm so angry >.< I'm afraid I may have to throw my plans for integrated microsub feed import away :c
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vika_nezrimaya
or make it a separate project :c
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[tantek]
GWG, [David_Bryant] you're both working on home weather stuff and having weather info on your site / posts
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vika_nezrimaya
Weather info on posts is interesting
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vika_nezrimaya
I want to do that. Could be added as some sort of a plugin to Micropub
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[tantek]
I think GWG was talking about making it a property of posts, or maybe already has a proposal?
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[tantek]
what is weather
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Loqi
Weather is the state of the atmosphere at a place and time as regards heat, dryness, sunshine, wind, rain, etc https://indieweb.org/weather
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GWG
I have it as a property of the location
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GWG
cleverdevil marks it up as a comment on the post
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vika_nezrimaya
How does aaronpk mark it up? I've seen weather on his posts
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[tantek]
Good q - does he have an example you can view source linked from /weather ?
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GWG
[tantek]: He uses p-location as well
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GWG
Properties under it
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GWG
I use h-measure
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GWG
Under p-location
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@ChrisAldrich
↩️ Depending on your needs: *If you're using Webmention plugin, it will send automatically on publish *For "manual" webmentions use @aaronpk's Telegraph or @kevinmarks' Mention Tech *Some receiving sites have input boxes you can put URL response in [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2019/12/23/55762805/
(twitter.com/_/status/1209220952766107648)
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[tantek]
Anyone here using Fragmentions on their site(s), KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks, adactio etc. may be interested in this (and commenting on it with your experience and citations) https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/234
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Loqi
[bzbarsky] #234 Fragmentions
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@ChrisAldrich
↩️ If you’re going all-in, so to speak: Webmetions can do a lot more, but this piece was pretty good for explaining Threaded Replies in WordPress and another one on Twitter Threading. [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2019/12/23/55762805/?replytocom=273521#respond https://boffosocko.com/2017/12/15/threaded-replies-with-webmentions-in-wordpress/
(twitter.com/_/status/1209223733904150528)
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[tantek]
[chrisaldrich] do you have experience and opinions about Fragmentions? You may be interested in https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/234
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Loqi
[bzbarsky] #234 Fragmentions
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@AGWilsonn
↩️ I basically see https://crowdlaaers.org as providing a collection alternative to your spreadsheet idea via page searches. You lose the kind of in-time notifications you currently have, but you gain a layer of analytics. Integrating webmention with hypothesis would be ideal tho.
(twitter.com/_/status/1209234910487158786)
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[chrisaldrich]
Thanks Tantek, I do. I saw the note on your site the other day but haven't had the time to dig into thoughts further yet.
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GWG
[tantek]: What is this about weather from earlier?