#dev 2020-01-08

2020-01-08 UTC
petermolnar, [KevinMarks], eli_oat, [mrkrndvs], beko and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ I'd definitely go up to the $75/year range for a solid full-featured reader like @Feedly or @Inoreader but that included Micropub and Microsub infrastructure. [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2020/01/07/55763758/ (twitter.com/_/status/1214768678396297216)
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petermolnar [tantek]: if I remember correctly, Xanadu wanted symmertical links; basically what webmentions are sort of aiming to do, as in everything existing knows about everything incoming. I'm aware it never happened. See Hpyer-G though, which achieved some of it, then fell into oblivion: https://much.isds.tugraz.at/projects/hyper-g/9.htm/
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jamietanna[m] Makes sense, thanks snarfed, will have a look!
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@JamieTanna It's #HomebrewWebsiteClub Nottingham tonight! https://www.jvt.me/events/homebrew-website-club-nottingham/2020/01/08/ I'm not 100% what I'm working on - it may be finalising my http://Meetup.com http://Brid.gy integration, or may be just on my own site! (https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/f1zk5/) (twitter.com/_/status/1214826881624739840)
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[tantek] Petermolnar yes Xanadu wanted symmetrical links but no on the rest
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[tantek] Webmention is not symmetrical at all. It still splits agency across the different sites which are free to do as they wish. Not symmetrical at all
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[tantek] And my point originally was about IndieWeb and tracing social connections of authorship as opposed to untraceable rando shared fake articles published by bots. Xanadu has nothing that addressed problems of identity like that
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[tantek] The only useful lesson from Xanadu is to beware of stubborn idealization (for decades) without practical iteration. Massive waste of time and despite that somehow still held up as an example (like you provided) that’s nothing more than a distraction from actually building workable things
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[tantek] On a more practical topic... reposts permissions or at least requests not to repost could be worth exploring, based on the concerns expressed here: https://www.instagram.com/p/B6_KGADgHro/
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Loqi [Gabby Frost] digital art and other art forms are becoming more and more popular on social media, but the creators behind the work aren’t being properly credited. here’s a simple little graphic to show you all what to do if you want to repost someone else’s... https://scontent-mia3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/81129503_505627330080311_6782967308441643348_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=111&_nc_ohc=cQeFUdHw7ZIAX_OIx8J&oh=aef517e0505780a617fd15cdd9f30443&oe=5EA68D63
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petermolnar [tantek]: lessons learnt from idealized, nonexistent systems are still lessons, so I disagree with the complete waste of time part. webmentions are decoupled, yes, but in the end, their principal - not the way how things work - share similarities with the idea of symmetrical links. You are completely correct that this would not, in any way, address identity issues at all on it's own.
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[tantek] On another dev related topic likely impacting some IndieWeb sites: https://twitter.com/hdv/status/1214839423898210304
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@hdv “I don't want to build a cookie consent UI. It will be difficult to program, technical debt to maintain, and worse, be annoying to users. I'd rather see if we can just ditch anything setting a third-party cookie, so I'm going down that road first.” https://css-tricks.com/why-every-website-wants-you-to-accept-its-cookies/ (twitter.com/_/status/1214839423898210304)
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[tantek] I know we have something about the cookie consent stuff on the wiki but can’t remember what it’s called
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[tantek] What is cookie permission?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cookie permission" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "cookie permission is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] analytics << Open Source / remixable Glitch alternative to Google Analytics: https://twitter.com/lady_ada_king/status/1214848857022091264
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@Lady_Ada_King This is why I built http://adalytics-live.glitch.me, I didn't want to show cookie banners just for Google Analytics so I built an analytics solution which doesn't use them. You can remix it to add it to your own site. https://twitter.com/hdv/status/1214839423898210304 (twitter.com/_/status/1214848857022091264)
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Loqi ok, I added "Open Source / remixable Glitch alternative to Google Analytics: https://twitter.com/lady_ada_king/status/1214848857022091264" to the "See Also" section of /website-analytics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=67787&oldid=66182
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petermolnar so... essentially... adalytics is a visitor counter?
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[Marlin_Forbes] per page visitor counter
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[Marlin_Forbes] analytics 🙂
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[Marlin_Forbes] cute
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[Marlin_Forbes] if you have access to the access logs, goaccess.io is very nice too.
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[Marlin_Forbes] awstats-ish data with a modern UI
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[tantek] datashamen, do you use goaccess on your personal site? Curious to understand any IndieWeb specific benefits (I myself haven’t bothered with setting up any analytics yet)
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[Marlin_Forbes] had it installed before, not currently
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[Marlin_Forbes] static log file analysis
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[Marlin_Forbes] has a websocket server so you can see live stats as they happen as well
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[Marlin_Forbes] basically web access log analysis + graphs
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[Marlin_Forbes] biggest benefit to my mind is that it doesn't use any form of tracking, it's all backend access log analysis
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[Marlin_Forbes] and you can get stats about non-JS users like bots, which GA wont give you
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beko[m] so… awstats? :)
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[Marlin_Forbes] same same, but prettier
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[Marlin_Forbes] and live view is gr8
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beko[m] Hard to argue on that 😆
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[Marlin_Forbes] awstats looks like a website from the 90s
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beko[m] It's perl 🙂 Comes with the territory.
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beko [Marlin_Forbes]: GoAccess looks interesting, ty. Think I stumbled over this a while ago but forgot about it again.
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jgmac1106 petermolnar I tried that adalytics counter and II got “url does not match filter” I think I am gonna stay analytics free so it doesn’t bias what and how I write
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petermolnar awstats is and awesome piece of 90s engineering, with the whole package: it'll work till the end of the days BUT NEVER OPEN THE CODE.
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wink lol
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beko Well, GoAccess is probably more interesting for server admins for trending without detailled monitoring. I can now confirm that I write my blog mostly for myself :D No news here. 79345 hits and 1.96GB data transferred :D (static IP :)) since Sep.
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wink not sure I had 79k hits in 20 years of blogging :P
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beko well, it's probably due to the MicroSub endpoint.
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beko subbed to a lot of stuff recently
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beko including TW, Mastodon and FB streams. FB seems to be broken [again] tho. Don't mind. That's phasing out.
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beko Gotta debug this. 17.06% 404 errors.
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beko ok, all good. that's ActivityPub / fediverse noise :D First real content 404 is just 0.13%
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@ton_zylstra ↩️ @bmann Not sure if your blog is set up to receive webmentions, but my reply is here: https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2020/01/12288/ (twitter.com/_/status/1214892546813505537)
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petermolnar I found some awstats data
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petermolnar 2019: Unique visitors 7,408, Bandwidth 4.11 GB
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petermolnar That's a lot less, than I thought for 2019.
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petermolnar 2008: Unique visitors  317, Bandwidth 740.26 MB
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beko bw or visitors? :)
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petermolnar bw
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beko Do you log all? Many servers don't log e.g. images.
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petermolnar I have a full fledged access log, yes
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beko Nice. Good optimized images then :D
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beko Just told someone last week that his index page serves 25mb on first visit. Mindboogling o0
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petermolnar you got me thinking with what is included in the bandwidth
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petermolnar but according to the page, it is included
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petermolnar does smell way too small though
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petermolnar no, something is definitely wrong, January 2020 so far is 1.28GB
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petermolnar which is much more sensible
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beko mayhap you changed the logging format
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beko or disabled compression
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petermolnar ah. silly static html doesn't update the top part in awstats, so: total uniq visitors in 2019 95,224, bandwidth 58.69 GB; in 2008, unique 3,034, bandwidth 7.12 GB - yeah, that sounds more reasonable.
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beko :D
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petermolnar I'm curious about aaronpk's and tantek's stats though
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aaronpk I really should set up awstats again
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[Marlin_Forbes] even if you don't do it now, at least keep your logs
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aaronpk they're too big, I can't
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beko 🤣
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[Marlin_Forbes] then you're gonna have to setup awstats 🙂
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petermolnar fyi stick to awstats, webalizer doesn't work any more.
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beko so… if you add one ad to your site today you could even buy something to eat just tomorrow :D wild.
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aaronpk I have ads on my popular articles
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beko I guess I never read any then :D
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petermolnar hopes it's not an ad network, so there's no way someone sneaks ads like replace your blog with Medium.com into aaropk's page
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aaronpk it ends up more or less paying the server costs
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beko sounds good
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aaronpk it is, but medium doesn't advertise there
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petermolnar I'm in the middle of gradually moving my services onto my home server
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aaronpk it's Code Fund
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@vaughnhannon Checking cross posting and syndication blah blahAlso on: http://brid.gy Related (https://wp.me/pap1Ol-d9) (twitter.com/_/status/1214942145804668928)
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jgmac1106 just had a thought I pay for premium rss feeds so I can bundle them and publish them as an iframe, how I build planets, would would be the social reader version?
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jgmac1106 can’t rely on webmentions (well I guess for class it could becuase I am in control) and syndication as majority of people won’t support webmentions or have mf2
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 !tell mblaney love to schedule a call to see how we could use and test ihazawebsite this coming semester
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aaronpk jgmac1106: https://stream.indieweb.org is already an indieweb planet
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aaronpk doesnt take anything special beyond how planets normally work. the planet pulls content from the individual websites. this one happens to be able to parse microformats, jsonfeed, and rss
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jgmac1106 okay, that is what I need to build for my classes, right now using inoreader
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jgmac1106 going to try ihazawebsite in my class I taught on Known…it was easier for students to use a multi-user site, and I got some of the identitywork done by builiding on Glitch…but not the same as crafting your own site
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jgmac1106 …but I need to figure out the stream, and I will say students found comfort in being able to publish to group only, for that reason alone may stick with the multiuser known site. Be neat if Known to Known syndication worked but if I was a memeber of both sites a private post would pubslih private webmention
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jgmac1106 I could then spin up a Known instance for each student….still doesn’t have the front page, page builder features, my students want, people have efficacy issues with writing, don’t want the stream on the home page…
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jgmac1106 oh well 14 days to figure out thanks for letting me see the prior art aarponpk, love teaching with webmentions, there is something there...
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jgmac1106 best solution is manton starts selling an “organizational” level of mircro.blog and can spin up private versions of micro.blog with the ability to syndicate everywhere including a public micro.blog account
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aaronpk that's a thought heh
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jgmac1106 sorry….just doing instructional design for next semester….constant battle or cognitive load and tool choice…just gthrew up thoughts I guess
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jgmac1106 still it was helpful, and my studentw provide insight into what it is like to use this stuff with people who have never been online beyond silos
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jgmac1106 I think unicyclic and i hazawebsite might be the next experiment, otherwise all roads always lead back to WordPress
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jmac Webmention tech question: If I wish to send a WM to a given target, and that target offers a `Link` HTTP header with an agreeable URL value, but which lacks the addition of `rel="webmention"`, then I should treat that as finding no valid WM target and take no further action. Right?
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aaronpk correct, it needs rel=webmention otherwise it could be a very different use of the Link header
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jmac (And assuming that there are no WM targets in the HTML content.)
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jmac Yep, cool
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jmac Thanks! (Got a pull request on my Perl WM library, if you can believe that, which improves its reaction to seeing a `Link` with no `rel` at all)
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jmac Is that situation even valid for any purpose, webmention or otherwise? Just a `Link` with a URL and no `rel`?
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aaronpk i've never heard of a Link header (or <link> tag) with no rel attribute, i'm not sure what that would mean
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[tantek] render it so the user can click on it? 🤡
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jmac Yeah seems like a misconfigure
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jmac But a user of my library ran across it in the wild and it made my library throw some ugly warns
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aaronpk well it certainly doesn't mean try to send a webmention to it :)
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jmac "I have no idea what you're talking about so have a webmention"
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beko It works with cookies tho :)
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jmac encloses a chocolate-chip cookie to a HTTP request to a non-rel URL, immediately violates GDPR
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beko :D
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beko some mentions I get send cookies along with their avatar. Or their cdn does. Not amusing for me :/
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gRegorLove mmm, rel="chocolate-chip-cookie"
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@vincentlistens To move URLs or not. While porting code to #11ty there is an opportunity to clean up my URLS, but this would break backwards compatibility and previous webmentions without doing a ton of redirects and life is too short. https://vincentp.me/notes/2020/01/09/07-18/ (twitter.com/_/status/1214976472496115713)
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@JamieTanna A fairly easy result for #HomebrewWebsiteClub - don't try resending Webmentions (for two weeks) if the target doesn't support Webmentions https://gitlab.com/jamietanna/www-api/merge_requests/68 (https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/qya7q/) (twitter.com/_/status/1214979473864626176)
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[snarfed] jamietanna just fyi this ^ has been debated in the past. eg some sites may accept wms on some pages but not others, so looking just at domain is too coarse
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[snarfed] there are other cases too. more background: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/701 , https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sender-discovers-receiver-webmention-endpoint
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Loqi [snarfed] #701 finer grained webmention endpoint caching
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aaronpk is that on the whole domain? yeah that's often too coarse
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jamietanna[m] Snarfed sorry this isn't per domain, it's when it fails to send to a given page on a domain
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aaronpk ah per URL is probably safe
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aaronpk also since i see this is talking about using telegraph, fwiw Telegraph has a hardcoded list of domains it will never attempt to discover a webmention endpoint for
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aaronpk feel free to add to that list: https://github.com/aaronpk/Telegraph/blob/master/lib/Telegraph/Webmention.php#L17
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[tantek] yeah I put hardcoded list like that into /Falcon also to not even bother doing discovery on
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[snarfed] here's bridgy's, it's pretty big: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/domain_blacklist.txt
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jamietanna[m] Nice, I may add reddit as I don't believe they'll support it (any time soon)
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jamietanna[m] Snarfed FYI https://github.com/snarfed/granary/pull/180 should be in a better state for a review now 👍🏽
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Loqi [jamietanna] #180 Add missing Granary methods for Meetup
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[snarfed] :thumbsup:
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aaronpk [snarfed]++ i might steal that list
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Loqi [snarfed] has 49 karma in this channel over the last year (89 in all channels)
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[tantek] snarfed, would you consider a pull request to rename that list?
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[snarfed] tantek: rename it? you mean the filename? why?
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[snarfed] the filename is a internal implementation detail, it's not exposed to users or anywhere else besides bridgy's codebase
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[tantek] Right. Similar renaming is happening in chrome / blink right now due to Microsoft request. Problematic names like whitelist / blacklist
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[snarfed] got a link? i'm not familiar with that context
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[tantek] I can look up citations if it’s not immediately obvious
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[tantek] Ok
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[tantek] Or someone else can too. Have to run right now
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[snarfed] oh, implicit relation to ethnicity? sure, feel free to send citations
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@brob Finally got around to pushing my Webmentions functionality live on my blog. Almost 100% ripped from @mxbck's excellent tutorial: https://mxb.dev/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/1214998344289923073)
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@nhoizey ↩️ If you keep track of your old URLs in a data file or directly in the content’s YFM, I guess you can get both old and new Webmentions. I think that’s what @AaronGustafson did for Jekyll, and I plan to do that for @eleven_ty. (twitter.com/_/status/1215002075916050432)
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superkuh Thanks for showing me the way, aaronpk. I did the nginx proxying to itself thing like you found and it's working for getting POST variables.
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[snarfed] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (207 in all channels)
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@JmacDotOrg Version 0.704 of Web::Mention, my Webmention library for Perl, should show up on CPAN in a bit; just some small fixes. Thank you to @avian2 and @cpan_author for recent contributions! https://metacpan.org/pod/Web::Mention (twitter.com/_/status/1215020140401713152)
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gRegorLove jmac++
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Loqi jmac has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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[tantek] [snarfed]: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/03/chromium_microsoft_offensive/
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[tantek] like literally the term in the filename in the article of the title 🙂
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[tantek] and note it's about presence in *source*, not in any user-observable product feature per se
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[tantek] I'll file an issue and we can discuss / apply pull requests accordingly
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[snarfed] thanks!
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[snarfed] makes sense
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[snarfed] jamietanna: feel free to email me the meetup API key files, public@ryanb.org
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jamietanna[m] https://alexjs.com/ seems pretty good too for catching this stuff (via https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2019/12/veqhc/)
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[snarfed] i'd never considered the provenance of blacklist/whitelist, but yup, understood, totally reasonable
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[snarfed] [tantek] happy to rename, no need for the issue unless you really want to
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[tantek] I'll file it just to cite the article and the list from Microsoft. Might be worth checking for more terms.
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[tantek] and thank you 🙂
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jamietanna[m] snarfed: just emailed the keys, let me know how you get on with it
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@kingkool68 ↩️ @hankchizljaw Isn't this what https://brid.gy/ does? (twitter.com/_/status/1215030111390621696)
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@AaronGustafson ↩️ Yeah, mine keys off of the redirect_from & redirect_to data and uses that to help build out the webmentions. It also handles domain changes if you specify legacy URLs in the global config. I did some reorg early on, which was a forcing function to add the features. (twitter.com/_/status/1215030232232521728)
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@hankchizljaw ↩️ @kingkool68 Bridgy used to do webmentions stuff for me. Not sure if it does this stuff (twitter.com/_/status/1215030388139184129)
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aaronpk superkuh: awesome! Mind adding a config snippet somewhere on the wiki? Maybe the static site page?
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aaronpk Or even better write a blog post and link to that!
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superkuh Well, there's http://superkuh.com/blog/2019-12-11-3.html but it's not very nice. Once I write a perl script to batch process I'll write something better.
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Loqi [superkuh] Indieweb, microformats markup, and a minimum webmention implemention
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@JamieTanna ↩️ It does! This post is coming straight from my website using http://brid.gy publish! (https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/01/vzlmp/) (twitter.com/_/status/1215036761837068289)
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beko [snarfed]: The permissions link for Twitter on https://brid.gy/about#permissions is 404. It's probably now https://developer.twitter.com/en/docs/basics/apps/guides/app-permissions but that may differ based on authentication method used.
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[snarfed] thanks beko! will fix. broken permalinks, sigh
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beko annoying. I was also surprised that there is no redirect.
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[snarfed] jamietanna: good sleuthing, you're right, it may be the missing feature property. you can set it to `'publish'` in the `button_html()` call in `index.html`
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