#dev 2020-03-03

2020-03-03 UTC
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[yo] lol @ schema.org stuff dying off
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[yo] that’s kinda wild
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[yo] extend embrace implode
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[KevinMarks] Is webmentioning the CoC with a read-of as part of the rsvp a useful approach?
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[KevinMarks] That seems more affirmative than a click through
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[yo] kinda - ideally you’d want to ‘refresh’ one’s acknowledgement each time it’s presented
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[yo] not necessarily a ToS where it’s one off
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aaronpk sounds cool from a protocol standpoint but ultimately this has to be in a UI somewhere
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[yo] yup
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[yo] could be some sort of auto-reply to the act of one’s rsvp
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[yo] before the rsvp would show up on the event itself
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[yo] 🤔
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[jgmac1106] Could there be an auto-generated webmention... I send an rsvp, then I get a webmention back to the CoC, when I send a webmention to CoC the RSVP gets displayed?... Lotta plumbing and stwps
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[KevinMarks] If they support micropub you could generate a post that says [yes] i am coming and [I agree with the CoC] with the appropriate links
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gRegorLove schema dying off?
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[jgmac1106] maybe it should be on the default publishing, like I could see a form field in Known on RSVP for CoC url, and then a drop down or checkbox by agreeeing
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[jgmac1106] ....go one step farther, by submitting the CoC of this event I acknowledge I have read and agreed, then you drop in CoC link,
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[ColinMorris] Would this be a specific Code of Conduct acceptance, or would this be for general Conditions acceptance? As in could this be used for Non-disclosure acceptance etc., or should they be individual fields rather than a collective "Acceptance" action?
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[jgmac1106] [ColinMorris] yes for photograph or meal choice, good point, everything we do is public domain, so nda need not apply
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[ColinMorris] Ah, better example, ty.
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[jgmac1106] but for CoC I thought about putting the acknowledgement in the form, accepting NO becomes an an attack vector
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@jgmac1106 A2 I like using webmentions #edtechchat (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1Mql0E) (twitter.com/_/status/1234652258270314497)
nickodd, wtuhfm^, petermolnar, plut4rch, [fluffy], geoffo, jjuran, dopplergange, KartikPrabhu, [jeremycherfas], leg, cweiske, [LewisCowles] and Edrash joined the channel; nickodd left the channel
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[jgmac1106] question in the example on: https://indieweb.org/repost#How_to_Publish why is there a u-repost-of on a div element and the u-url on the anchor element, I though u* was just for links
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Zegnat [jgmac1106]: it is because of nesting rules. the u-repost-of is a property of the h-entry. The value of this property is a nested h-cite.
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Zegnat So the u-report-of of the h-entry will then know to default to the u-url of the h-cite.
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Zegnat s/report/repost/
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Zegnat (That is the really quick explanation. I wonder if we have examples of this behaviour somehwere.)
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sknebel I mean, the two HTML examples on that page showing both options are a start
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sknebel The sentence before it even explains that's what it is doing different
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sknebel The thing with tabs to show parsed results would still be cool, so you don't have to manually plug it in a parser if needed
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (56 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] This was my first draft https://jgregorymcverry.com/inclusiveimages
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Loqi [Alexis Clifton] Repost of Inclusive Images
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[jgmac1106] Oops I need to change my dt-published
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[jgmac1106] zegnat, sknebel let me know if this is any clearer..if not roll back: https://indieweb.org/repost#How_to_Publish
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[jgmac1106] aaronpk looking at the authorship page as I write some research notes
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[jgmac1106] is there a markup example where you can have no author info in the footer and have the h-card pulled from the homepage? Is that a thing?
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[snarfed] [jgmac1106] https://indieweb.org/h-card#Issues ?
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GWG How do I imply the publication property from an arbitrary URL?
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sknebel You need *something* to link to the author url
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GWG sknebel: Well, publication and author are not always the same thing
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GWG Let's say I'm reading a newspaper website
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GWG I want the author of the article and the title of the publication
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sknebel Oh sorry, I was replying to the messages before yours
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GWG sknebel: Sorry, didn't realize
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GWG I thought you were commenting on how websites are often reflective of a single author philosophy
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sknebel For yours, I'd guess in many cases you can try the homepage or the page title, buts that's probably always gonna be heuristic
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sknebel Unless there's specific markup
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GWG Well, not often in MF2
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GWG In other protocols, yes
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sknebel And e..g newspaper sites are going to be different from journal sites or personal blogs
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GWG Maybe I should start a movement
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sknebel E.g. newspaper stuff might have schema or sitemaps /cc Zegnat
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GWG sknebel: Most newspapers don't have MF2
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GWG That's when I fall back to OGP and such
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GWG But, for h-cite, it is p-publication
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GWG I'm not sure if there is an algorithm for determining it from a page, or how to suggest people mark it up
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sknebel ah, you're thinking of purely mf2 options
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sknebel feels like it could be connected to a feed
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[jgmac1106] it should be no surprise that ideas of identity leave so many questions
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[jgmac1106] gwg, it doesn't have mf2 implications but all the credibility tools for newspapers as of late are either using OGP or more recently LinkedData
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[jgmac1106] atleast the prototype tools being shared by the credibility coalition and a variety of publishers
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GWG sknebel: Yes. I parse OGP as a fallback
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GWG I suppose I could always parse OGP regardless and merge the two.
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GWG I used to do that
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GWG But it seems like we should solve this question in MF2 as well
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GWG So, problem: I have URL x, which reflects an h-entry on Site X. I want to not only be able to parse the h-entry, but identify the name of the site it is posted on.
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GWG Or, alternatively, identify that site reflects a person's identity.
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GWG I need some sort of process for this
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[jgmac1106] something like?
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[jgmac1106] https://glitched.news/
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[jgmac1106] that uses sechema.org and OGP for facebook and twitter...though the latter two shoudl cause a reduction in trust points IMO
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[jgmac1106] https://glitched.news/article?url=https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/fed-chair-powell-treasury-secretary-mnuchin-g7-finance-ministers-release-n1147776#article-structured-data
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GWG [jgmac1106]: I'm looking for an mf2 process
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[jgmac1106] I know I was just sharing some prior art if you needed to map something from OGP or schema.org to publisher
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[jgmac1106] or course if you can convince all the credibility tool devs to add an mf2 parser...even better....
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GWG [jgmac1106]: What would you say is the title of your site?
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GWG LEt's say, https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/
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GWG Which I know is one of many
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[jgmac1106] INTEREXtrEVOLUTION
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GWG However, according to your JSON-LD embed, it is "Quick Thoughts"
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[jgmac1106] this actually comes up alot for me doing following posts. Naming your website much more prevalent in education space
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GWG And several other sources
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[jgmac1106] I know....but to readers it is big in the header
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[jgmac1106] I think it is artifact of wordpress havign a website title and website tagline in their design
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GWG INTERExtrEVOLUTION seems to be the name for your main domain, not this subdomain
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GWG [jgmac1106]: I would agree.
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GWG I'm trying to tie things together. I suppose I can tie them together by storing rel='home'
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GWG But is everyone identifying that?
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GWG Hmmm...
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GWG This needs analysis
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[jeremycherfas] I’ve been reading about the Amazfit Bip smart watches. People use Gadgetbridge to link to Android phones. Is there an equivalent app for iOS? I don’t really want to use the company’s service, and I can’t afford an Apple Watch.
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[jgmac1106] gwg I think I kind of gave up including the p-name of the blog within an author h-card, it was just hard to determine
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GWG This is the same problem I tried to solve with feeds
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2020/02/11/exploring-feed-discovery-and-markup/
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GWG What is h-feed?
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Loqi h-feed is a microformats2 draft specification with a top level feed object to contain root class(h-*) objects, usually h-entry posts and optionally a common author, name, and representative photo https://indieweb.org/h-feed
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GWG I did a check of who added a name property to their h-feed not long ago on that wiki page
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GWG How would searching for a rel=home and checking the title property on there?
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GWG Do people put title properties on their rel=home?
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GWG It seems a lot of work to find the rel=home, pull that page, and grab the title.
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GWG What is rel-home?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-home" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "rel-home is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG rel-home is a way to indicate that a hyperlink links to the home page of the site on which the current page appears
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Loqi ok
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GWG Surprised we didn't have tht one
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[tantek] GWG, the problem with rel-home is the classic lack of compelling consuming code use-cases
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GWG [tantek]: Any ideas about the problem I am contemplating though?
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[tantek] what's the use-case you are contemplating?
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voxpelli What is a home page?
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Loqi Your homepage represents you on the web, typically at the top of your domain, with your name and an iconic representation, often marked up with h-card, and fairly commonly one or more streams of recent, topical, or most relevant posts marked up with h-entry https://indieweb.org/home_page
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voxpelli What is h-x-app?
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Loqi h-x-app is a proposed microformats vocabulary for marking up data about software applications https://indieweb.org/h-x-app
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voxpelli GWG: almost like that but for a publication, right?
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GWG Yes, or even my site
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aaronpk How is that different from an author URL?
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voxpelli aaronpk: From a newspaper perspective, the author is the one who writes the article, the publication is the one who publishes the article
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voxpelli So ideally a rel-author would point to their personal site while the publication would identify the publication
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aaronpk Then my next question is what is the consuming case for that info. Do you expect it to be shown somewhere? If so, where, and does there need to be other information along with it similar to how author provides the name and photo too
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voxpelli Here’s an example: https://news.indieweb.org/sv/digital.di.se/artikel/blogg-har-facebook-last-in-oss-for-gott
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Loqi [digital.di.se] Blogg: Har Facebook låst in oss för gott?
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voxpelli Ideally that would say that it was published by “Fredrik Wass on DI Digital”, one linked to his site/profile,the other to the publication
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voxpelli Then I can either dig into more posts from him or more posts from that publication (what we provide on our newspaper sites)
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voxpelli Thinking about it, the metadata on an h-feed provides that data from a feed perspective: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Core_Properties
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voxpelli GWG: what you were pointing at is that it’s hard to point out which feed you belong to, right? So you can find it from the article?
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GWG aaronpk, voxpelli, [tantek]: Sorry for the delay.. was going through passport control
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GWG Yes. Feed in one circumstance
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voxpelli Like you can do on indie news: add a u-category or u-syndication pointing to it?
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GWG In another, I want to be able to link things from the same resource.
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GWG So, how would I link them together by site or publication?
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voxpelli Adding a u-category pointing to the feed enables that, only thing it doesn’t say is which the main feed is
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GWG I need to derive that consistently
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[tantek] This doesn't seem like an actual use-case in practice outside of citing things
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[tantek] the whole author vs publisher thing, h-cite does capture that
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GWG But I'm trying to generate the h-cite data automatically
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GWG So, I decide to cite a url...
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voxpelli If you in an indie reader wants to show articles by feed, by author or by publication - then it’s a thing
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[tantek] GWG, still, you have not once mentioned a consuming code use-case
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[tantek] all about what you want to publish and link to
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[tantek] that's not consuming code. that's only publishing
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voxpelli Which I was actually in a meeting just a few hours ago discussing how one could do in an open web way ;)
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GWG Well, let me go back to the user story
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GWG Me being the user
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GWG I read a lot in a reader
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[tantek] voxpelli, distinguishing "by feed" is plumbing IMO and bad design
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[tantek] a feed is just a format. it has no meaning on its own
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aaronpk So voxpelli's case sounds like publisher vs author. Not "home page"
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GWG I often want to save articles, but I want to keep track of the source
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[tantek] (beyond name, series of entries etc.)
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GWG aaronpk: I started asking about publication
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[tantek] GWG, source is the URL
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GWG As the citation term
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GWG [tantek]: Yes, but what is the canonical URL for the site?
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GWG Back to rel-home
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[tantek] URL as in permalink
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voxpelli [tantek]: yeah, I agree, at least somewhat, it depends on whether one see the feed as the primary entity of a publication or that a publication is more similar to an author / organization
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[tantek] which has authors
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voxpelli I would say that “home page” is very much plumbing, it could be anything, a feed, an about page
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GWG Let's take it with a personal site
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[tantek] feed is never a "primary entity"
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GWG tantek.com
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[tantek] if you mean "a blog", well that has more meaning
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GWG I want to be able to tie my use of one tantek.com url to another
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voxpelli [tantek]: yes, I agree with that, I spoke too soon
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[tantek] GWG, you connect them via shared authorship
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[tantek] you don't need anything else to "tie ... one .. to another"
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GWG Okay, which excludes multi author sites
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GWG Let's say I read the Daily Planet regularly.
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voxpelli There are three things you can connect them through: Publication, authors, categories
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GWG Yes, so I am storing author, category... I am trying to figure out how to derive publication
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voxpelli This is what we do in our data for my newspapers (a data model strongly inspired my the web and IndieWeb)
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GWG voxpelli: Matching what I am building
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GWG I want to replace my usage of Pinboard for this...and I hate that it doesn't store author or publication
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voxpelli What Google chose to do for Google+ was to mimic rel-author with a rel-publisher, not sure how to do that in h-entry
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GWG voxpelli: Citations note a p-publication
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GWG When there are no microformats, I fall back on ogp, which has several fields for site name
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voxpelli GWG: a publication for your context would need to be represented as an h-card or a link in my opinion
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voxpelli Else you can’t know which of two similarly named publications it is and you can’t eg. traverse the link or anything
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GWG You could if it were u-publication, but we're a bit premature for new formats
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voxpelli The problem of adding the publication as an author would be that it would then be an organization that’s a co-author of the article
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voxpelli Adding that very same data with a “publication” instead of author would accurately indicate that it’s not a co-author, it’s the curated group where the content is published
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[tantek] This is literally too much plumbing talk without a clearly written user story and flow
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[tantek] all the if thens / instead / that reasoning is kinda useless without writing down exactly what goal you are trying to accomplish
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[tantek] with what steps, as a task
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[tantek] GWG, you're right about "premature for new formats"
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[tantek] I suggest this: *ignore* "publication" until you have (someone else has) documented a clear user story or flow
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voxpelli Yeah, good thing I have now finally gotten a sign-off on our open source policy at work, which I put forward, so hopefully some work there can become more open
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[tantek] like literally ignore the information. drop it
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[tantek] just cite author and name of work and permalink and be done
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[tantek] if it's not important enough to write down a clear user story / flow, then it's not important enough to markup / argue about
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[chrisaldrich] I feel like GWG has a pretty clear idea of what he wants and is planning on creating a consuming use case for something he's looking for. Some of the pieces don't exist and it would be nice if they did.
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] can you link to this "clear idea"?
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[chrisaldrich] I've also been seeing a lot of cross site syndication where larger news publications are sharing resources and cross-publishing pieces without providing a rel-canonical
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, he's been writing it out in the various chats over the past week and a half. Maybe he'd benefit from writing it all out on his own site in one place?
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voxpelli [chrisaldrich]: that is very much the case, and in the case of my newspapers, we can’t really link to a single instance as being the canonical one
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sknebel so somehow "I currently do X, and do not like aspect Y about it, how can I fix it?" is not enough anymore to discuss something here?
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] I've seen circular discussion in chats over time yes. have not seen an actual user goal. I start with x,y,z, I want to make a,b,c
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[tantek] sknebel, if you can't define your goal, you're unlikely to accomplish it
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[tantek] at some point the circular discussions, especially when they start focusing on plumbing, are a waste of time yes
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[chrisaldrich] Another piece I think he's looking for is to be able to cite/indicate something like "The New York Times" which has more credibility than the individual author which may not have the built in credibility.
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[chrisaldrich] voxpelli, GWG have you looked at hnews? http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews
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Loqi hNews 0.1
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[chrisaldrich] obviously older, but may have some worthwhile examples....
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jacky third time trying to redo lwa with laravel
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jacky I think what makes this easier is that it's _so_ easy to get started with laravel lol
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] hNews is unfortunately a good example of premature format with no solid consuming code use-case
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jacky it has some defaults I don't like (mysql over sqlite, aggressive concept of user accounts, etc) but it's nbd
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GWG I will write something out
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GWG Just unpacking my stuff at the hotel
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[tantek] BTW if you want to see when you go wild with overdesigning publishing markup based on whatever rando things people ask for / come up with, see schema-org.
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, one of the plugins I was planning on pointing you to is https://wordpress.org/plugins/academic-bloggers-toolkit/ which has some reasonably strong citation work from the side of academia and journals. I'm not sure what/where they're pulling their publication data from, but it may help you along as an example.
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Loqi [Derek P Sifford] Description FULLY SUPPORTS THE NEW BLOCK EDITOR! Academic Blogger’s toolkit is an open source WordPress plugin providing an all-in-one solution for effective academic blogging. This README page is not kept up to date! For a constaintly updated, ex...
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[tantek] so much crap there that no one ever consumes
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] citation is not a use-case on its on. citation in what context? what are examples of the thing(s) you are trying to produce?
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GWG I am looking for something simple
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[tantek] citing the NYT + author is the good beginnings of part of that but incomplete
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[tantek] GWG, to achieve what end goal?
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[chrisaldrich] Similarly if your citation post kind can also handle these sorts of academic cases, you'll also have a much broader user base.
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GWG [tantek]: chrisaldrich had the first part...citing the publications when it has more power than the author
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[tantek] in what context?
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GWG Sadly, I don't remember the names of all the authors at some organizations.
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[tantek] citing it in what?
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, he's trying to build a better bookmarking experience for his website to replace pinboard.
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[tantek] ugh there's no such thing as a "citation post kind"
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GWG In my case, when saving for my own use and when using the URL in replies
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GWG [tantek]: I agree, there is not
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[tantek] bookmarking and reply-contexts then?
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GWG Yes
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voxpelli For who does the publication have more power? The one who cites it or the one who publishes the original?
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GWG I have no interest in most of my bookmarks being posts.
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GWG But some of them yes
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, apologies for using a shorthand to describe something in short that I know GWG is working on, but which doesn't have an official name.
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[tantek] voxpelli, and is it desirable to amplify or delegate such power to a publication over/instead of the author?
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GWG I just called it Citations
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GWG It's essentially a bookmark store that I would sometimes post from, but it isn't a post itself
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[tantek] GWG as their own thing? how are they different from /bookmark posts?
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[tantek] GWG, sounds like there are pieces here you have thought about but no complete story of what happens and where things end up
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[tantek] that's why it seem so vague / unuseful
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voxpelli GWG: like https://voxpelli.com/links/ and https://adactio.com/links/ ?
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[tantek] so linkblogging?
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sknebel It would maybe help if people let him write out the entire thing instead of jumping on each thing he says with questions/criticisms/"this isn't a real use case"
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[tantek] "…that I would sometimes post from" -> post from to *what*?
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GWG [tantek]: In a way, yes.
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voxpelli I believe that Jeremy moved to his self-hosted links after the epic magnolia fiasco
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[tantek] sknebel, chat is a poor place to "write out the entire thing"
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GWG Think of it as private posts by default, but occasionally public ones
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[tantek] that's better for say /bookmark#Brainstorming
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voxpelli Magnolia being the main competitor to delicious at the time, pinboard joining years later
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GWG The reason why I have trouble is I've never understood a bookmark post
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voxpelli Which aspect of a bookmark? Everything or something in particular?
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[tantek] GWG, "private posts by default, but occasionally public ones" is too abstract and disconnected from any actual user benefit. It could mean so many different things in different contexts - why do you want the posts to be private or occasionally public? what's the purpose of doing so?
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[tantek] GWG, to understand bookmark posts, analyze the existing real world examples
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[tantek] It's going to be difficult to go from not understanding bookmark posts to creating something based on them
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voxpelli To be fair, Pinboard has a public/private toggle, and delicious did as well I think
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[tantek] those examples would be useful to list on /bookmark
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voxpelli And this is to replace Pinboard for you GWG?
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[tantek] replacing Pinboard would be a use-case yes
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voxpelli [tantek]: right, I’m a bit rusty on the wiki, where would that be best to document on /bookmark?
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[tantek] yes definitely
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[tantek] we do have Silo Examples sections on other pages
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[tantek] at least listing them
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GWG voxpelli: Yes, but I don't use the social parts of Pinboard
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[tantek] then we have separate pages for the silos where we describe their Features
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GWG I will document my use case a bit more
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[tantek] in a separate section. e.g. /Twitter has a Features section, similarly FB does too
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voxpelli [tantek]: yeah, weirdly /bookmark has a Silos section listing everything, then a Silos Examples with screenshots of just Pocket
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[tantek] GWG, you can use /bookmark#Brainstorming to write up a new subsection there
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[chrisaldrich] GWG did you ever use WordPress' links manager functionality or bookmarks functionality in web browsers?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Yes.
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[tantek] voxpelli not weird, normal for any incrementally grown resource 🙂
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GWG I had Xmarks before I switched to Pinboard
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GWG I tried Instapaper and Pocket
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GWG I read a lot of things and I like keeping a history of that
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GWG But most of it I don't share...or if I did, I wouldn't want one post per bookmark
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GWG That just seems like noise
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[tantek] depends on how you choose to present them!
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[tantek] you can definitely have "one post per bookmark" and not have it be noise
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voxpelli [tantek]: I love getting such pointers, nowadays it usually me trying to get everyone else here to think like that. You’re right and I added
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voxpelli Wiki is a progressive enhancement applied to a knowledge base ;)
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[chrisaldrich] the multitude of use cases for all of these different bookmark tools (especially silos) is pretty broad...
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[tantek] you have to not put everything everywhere by default
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[tantek] voxpelli++ thanks!
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Loqi voxpelli has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: 6 years ago, I started the conversation in the community trying to solve this problem
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voxpelli Whether it becomes noise or not is probably depending on how one presents it in the UI, eg. Pinboard has a minimalistic tag centric approach
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[tantek] voxpelli, looks like the "Silos" and "Silo Examples" sections need to be collapsed too, and the individual Silos all be made into subheadings rather than just list items
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GWG [tantek]: I have to work within my system though
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GWG Everything comes back to WordPress, I suppose as my problem as well as my solution
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[tantek] first you have to write out your user story from start to desired result, before working within any system 🙂
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GWG [tantek]: That I will do. I wrote some vague comments on my site, but I think I need to be specific about what I am thinking of doing
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, are you also worrying about how to search/present your bookmarks to yourself (particularly the private ones, which WordPress doesn't always do a good job of)?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Yes. And again, I'm very aware that others use what I build, so I am trying to be aware someone might want to do the...everything I read list
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GWG I can guess which someone
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[tantek] better to write down your ideal user flow / experience first, rather than limiting yourself to what a specific system can or cannot do / enforces
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[chrisaldrich] I have a pretty good everything I read list: https://boffosocko.com/kind/read/ 🙂
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Notice, I built that, but I don't use it
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[chrisaldrich] I should spend some time to better theme out the presentation for pieces of it though (particularly for the private ones).
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GWG I always saw that more for actual books
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GWG Not short form content
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GWG But again, to each their own.
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Loqi yea!
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[chrisaldrich] You could always add a simple taxonomy to differentiate between books/online content...
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[chrisaldrich] I did always like the concept of what reading.am was doing by collecting things people actually read as opposed to bookmarks which indicate interest, but don't indicate having the time spent looking at a thing beyond the headline...
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[chrisaldrich] GWG I'm also noticing that that Academic Bloggers Toolkit has a workflow of pulling in data the way that Post Kinds does and then presenting it in a Gutenberg block. I suspect if you look through their code, he's largely doing what Post Kinds does, but without sprinkling in the microformats.
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chrisaldrich WWTD << https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2020-03-03#t1583264358328100
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Loqi ok, I added "https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2020-03-03#t1583264358328100" to the "See Also" section of /WWTD https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=68796&oldid=44596
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GWG I am breaking Post Kinds apart
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GWG And revisiting each usage piece separately
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GWG Which is back to tantek's advice
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GWG Clearer user stories
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GWG I have life logging type things
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GWG Media watching
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GWG Bookmarking
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GWG Media posting
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[tantek] Yes!
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chrisaldrich I always felt that half of my posts are really bookmarks at heart, they're just wearing different colored hats to describe what I've done with them.
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chrisaldrich or what I might do with them in the future.
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[tantek] maybe tags would work better for that?
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GWG The way I implement them, they are tags
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GWG Post Kinds is in reality a tagging system mixed with templating
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GWG I don't know if I have ever explained that either
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GWG Hmmm... maybe I should do some writing
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voxpelli I’m thinking tumblelog here, but I’m also realizing that my references are from an ancient era today
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cweiske aaronpk, ping
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chrisaldrich GWG: you're definitely right about the templating/tagging thing. On my back end I've got a duplication of the tagging portion to help make search on my own site a bit easier.
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aaronpk yo
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cweiske I'm testing my websub hub phubb.cweiske.de at websub.rocks
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chrisaldrich adding tagging also makes it possible to do multi-kinds without doing the additional plumbing.
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cweiske and I am on the first test, 100
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GWG chrisaldrich: That's why I asked you as a user of the software
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cweiske my hub receives hub.mode=publish and wants to notify your site, but that fails for some reasons
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cweiske could you check why it failed?
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cweiske Failed to notify subscriber {"topic":"https://websub.rocks/hub/100/pub/OxSv4rrlu7hS8RQpRkBw","sub_id":"276","sub_url":"https://websub.rocks/hub/100/sub/OxSv4rrlu7hS8RQpRkBw"
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GWG How does one distinguish between commentary on an article and a more direct reply?
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jacky that's dependent on the poster, no?
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GWG Back to the bookmarking question.
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aaronpk wow i don't remember that error message at all
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GWG So, the notation on the /bookmark entry is that a bookmark is that commentary should be considered a reply
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aaronpk what is in-reply-to?
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Loqi in-reply-to is the h-entry property to use in a post that is a reply to another post https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to
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cweiske that#s an internal message of my hub
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aaronpk oh
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cweiske I actually don't have your response
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cweiske which is why i'm asking for help
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GWG The difference being I'm not sure I consider my comments on a bookmark to be directed at the author so much as those who are following me
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aaronpk i may not either
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gRegorLove GWG: if reply, use in-reply-to, otherwise general comments would be e-content
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cweiske ok, then I have to add mode debug logging
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aaronpk cweiske: what timestamp was that at?
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GWG gRegorLove, so in that case, what property would be on the url?
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gRegorLove u-bookmark-of
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cweiske 2020-03-03 21:19:02
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cweiske CET
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cweiske 20:19 UTC
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aaronpk is that +0200?
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aaronpk ah
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gRegorLove Where is "commentary should be considered a reply" on /bookmark?
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cweiske CET is +1, CEST is +2
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aaronpk ok i see the request, it looks like the server responded with 404
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aaronpk looks like it'll send that response if the thing in the URL after pub/ is not found
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GWG gRegorLove: So, then the wiki contradicts your statement.
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GWG Under similar post Kinds
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aaronpk which is weird because i see it in the database
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GWG "If the text of a bookmark post is written as commentary on the bookmark, then that should likely be a reply post instead. "
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GWG I also want to talk to cleverdevil about Indiepaper and where that fits in
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gRegorLove I don't think it's a contradiction. If it's commentary for yourself or your audience, e-content is fine. If you want the author to read it, you probably want a reply.
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aaronpk cweiske: ah it also destroys hubs after 15 minutes
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[chrisaldrich] For me it depends on whether the comment on the bookmark is for my use or for the author of the article. If it's a comment I'm directing at the author, then it might be a reply.
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aaronpk er, expires subscribers
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aaronpk could that be what's going on?
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gRegorLove that line is more of a "did you mean this type of post?" clarification to me. "likely"
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GWG My 10 year anniversary in the community is in 2024. I am hoping that I solve my bookmarking confusion before then
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gRegorLove Alternately if you don't have any consuming use-case for your commentary, maybe you don't even need e-content
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cweiske I did the first try which failed, and then came back 30 minutes later and did the second try
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GWG I think I have gotten progressively closer
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aaronpk ok i think you need to start it from scratch again
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cweiske so if the hub has been destroyed in the meantime, this would explain the 404
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GWG gRegorLove: To be read in Microsub readers?
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aaronpk if you look at the response of that 404 it should give you an explanation
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gRegorLove if you want your commentary in readers, you want e-content
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cweiske ok, I do not yet log that response
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cweiske thanks for your help
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aaronpk 👍
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[chrisaldrich] One of the things I like about the way you've designed webmentions within WordPress is that depending on the content within the post, I can always go in and change the type on my back end and change the display if I like. If the comment on a bookmark seems substantive to the broader conversation I can prevent it from displaying as a facepiled bookmark and make it a "reply" and things "just work".
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: That's my version of manual till it hurts
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[chrisaldrich] I find that it's rare that I do change those things manually, but it's nice that it's there.
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GWG If what the automation does hurts you, then fix it manually
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[chrisaldrich] few other websites know what to do with my "read" posts, but most of them seem to fall back to simple mentions or bookmarks
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GWG I need to take better notes on what I want to do re webmention display
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jacky ^ same
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, have you considered building an importer for your pinboard data into Post Kinds? Is that part of your calculus in making your changes?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Yes.
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gRegorLove GWG: Just added https://indieweb.org/bookmark#Sebastian_Greger. They have quite a few bookmark examples with commentary
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GWG Except I have 41000 bookmarks in Pinboard
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voxpelli For historic context, fun to read these thoughts 15 years later: https://kottke.org/05/10/tumblelogs
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[chrisaldrich] I'll often add commentary to my bookmarks as a reminder of why I may have bookmarked them in the first place. Where did they come from? what was it that interested me to bookmark it in the first place.
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gRegorLove [chrisaldrich], ironically I'm one that doesn't support read-of on my site yet, haha
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[chrisaldrich] None of it may be relevant to the author of the post, and thus in-reply-to seems rude to me.
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[chrisaldrich] gRegorLove!!!
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gRegorLove to be fair, you're the only one who sends them to me, pretty sure :)
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gRegorLove agreed, that's usually why I've added commentary to bookmarks. I don't think I'd ever want it to appear as a reply on the original.
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[chrisaldrich] Sometimes for people I know who support webmention, I'll send likes instead of reads...
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GWG I am still overwhelmed with choice
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[chrisaldrich] One day newspapers will support reads and maybe only show 3/4ths of a facepiled avatar to indicate that the person who sent it only read 3/4ths of the article?
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, try posting it all for a week or two to try it on and see how it feels to you. That may help you to make a decision instead of theorizing about what it might feel like.
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[chrisaldrich] Nearly everyone is going to have a different opinion, in part because some social silos don't have the ability to explicitly indicate some of the post types.
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[chrisaldrich] For example: Someone posts an article on Twitter and you'll never know if it's something they were bookmarking (in the sense they want to read it), they endorse it and want to spread it to others, or they actually read it.
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[chrisaldrich] The largest majority of my "likes" on Twitter are things that I want to bookmark links within to read for later. Twitter just doesn't make it easy to do that.
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GWG I thought they did now
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gRegorLove GWG: overwhelmed with choice about bookmarks?
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[chrisaldrich] Twitter technically does have bookmarks, but they don't make it easy to export that data in such a way as to make it useful to me or my website.
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[chrisaldrich] Another interesting piece of documentation on the wiki is about media checkins: https://indieweb.org/media_checkin#Dilutes_the_meaning_of_checkin
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GWG gRegorLove: Yes
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gRegorLove I'm not sure I understand the choices.
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[chrisaldrich] yet, many of us have watches, listens, reads, etc. because they're useful in some way to us either individually or to others who consume our content.
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[chrisaldrich] I could post all my watches, listens, reads as bookmarks, but I conceptualize a bookmark as a thing to hold a place for something I want to come back to revisit, re-read, or restart from, and often once I've watched something I'd never really want to search to come back to it.
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GWG I am an archivist by training
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GWG I like archiving things
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[chrisaldrich] We often un-bookmark things in physical print once we've resumed them, but who online is regularly unbookmarking content on their sites?
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[chrisaldrich] I love archiving things too.
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GWG I just am building everything into my website
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[chrisaldrich] Own all the things!
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GWG So, I want my contact list to be in there too
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[chrisaldrich] Have you looked at how swentel built contacts into his Drupal module? I keep meaning to spin up an instance and test out his plugin...
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GWG I had this idea about my nicknames cache doubling as a carddav system, but aaronpk talked me out of it
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GWG In the sense he suggested carddav might be a bridge too far
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[chrisaldrich] What was he pushing LDAP? 😉
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "he pushing LDAP" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "he pushing LDAP is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG I think he just said there weren't good PHP carddav libraries
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[chrisaldrich] there never are until someone builds one are there?
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GWG [cht
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Haven't I enough homework?
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[chrisaldrich] doesn't suggest you do so though....
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aaronpk There's a great carddav library for PHP but it wants to be a whole thing and I haven't been able to figure out how to extend it
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[chrisaldrich] Though it is a cardinal rule that you should be building for yourself...
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aaronpk like it'll happily be your self hosted address book, but I can't figure out how to do things like run custom code when a contact is added or anything
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[chrisaldrich] what is carddav?
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Loqi CardDAV is a protocol for syncing contact information, typically from personal devices like phones to services or web servers, such as your own website https://indieweb.org/CardDAV
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, is it the Baïkal one listed on that ^^ page?
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aaronpk Yea
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aaronpk wait
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aaronpk No
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aaronpk Sabre
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aaronpk which baikal uses of course
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aaronpk pretty sure there is only one WebDAV implementation in PHP and everyone uses it
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GWG I just wanted to sync my nicknames cache to my phone using DavDroid
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[chrisaldrich] Sabre somehow makes me think about /wuphf
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aaronpk "Just" lol yea
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aaronpk me too, me too
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voxpelli wants to make a IndieWeb todo-list to CalDAV todo-list bridge 😂
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[chrisaldrich] waits patiently for that domain name to expire so I can redirect it to indieweb.org
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[tantek] steps back slowly from the *DAV discussions
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aaronpk what domain?
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[chrisaldrich] wuphf dot com
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aaronpk The only reason I care about CardDav and CalDav is because there's built in support in iOS
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cweiske aaronpk, I think I am doing everything right for test 100, but websub.rocks still says "The notification is missing the HTTP Link header with rel=self indicating the topic URL of this notification." - shall I open a bug, or shall we debug here?
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voxpelli Same here, getting syncing to the built in Reminders app would be pretty neat for example
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aaronpk I'm on a plane so issue plz
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cweiske :)
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aaronpk probably won't be able to look until either late tonight or this weekend
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aaronpk I'm reasonably confident about the tests tho so double check everything
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GWG aaronpk: Same here re support
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[chrisaldrich] Does anyone have to do lists on their websites? (Private I would presume?)
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cweiske I sync todo notes from Tomdroid to my nextcloud instance. but i would not see nextcloud as my website
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aaronpk I don't, because it's essentially ephemeral info anyway
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GWG cweiske: Would you integrate next cloud into your website?
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cweiske I use nextcloud for private data, not for public data
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cweiske so, no. there is no reason
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[LewisCowles] One thing to make us happy when developing... At least it's not C/C++ written by someone else.
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[LewisCowles] https://gist.github.com/luulinh90s/bcab883b5a53b437b980d7be9745beaf
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[jgmac1106] voxpelli, the u-author on a newspaper should link to a feed of all that author's post and on that feed a link to author homepage in the h-card
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[jgmac1106] I have a to do list
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[jgmac1106] jgregorymcverry.com/todolist
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[jgmac1106] go on again off again, use it more when the # of unstructured workdays increase
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voxpelli [jgmac1106]: I agree, but that assumes there always are an author profile on the site, in eg our newspaper that isn’t always the case, only recurring authors gets such a one
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[jgmac1106] nothing annoys me more than newsites without an author feed
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[jgmac1106] especially tech news, so many writers greeen, not good yet
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[yo] tbh
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[yo] if the site itself exposes some sort of a h-card (like a top-level one representing the whole site itself)
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[yo] that could be used as a fallback
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[yo] I tend to ‘generate’ stub ones when pages don’t provide one
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[jgmac1106] I see aaronpk and eddie do that with thier podcast, give them an h-card
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GWG I haven't seen eddie much laterly
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[jgmac1106] no hiatus
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[jgmac1106] pops on twitter every now and again.
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voxpelli [jgmac1106]: we do have author feeds, but not for the occasional debate article from an outside author, only for our own writers or similar
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[jgmac1106] aahh okay contributors...yeah...that sould almost be a form field when they submit an article
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voxpelli I like how the Six Colors blog handles when the ones blogging there contributes to publications elsewhere: https://sixcolors.com/
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voxpelli Kind of makes their blog the canonical source and the true author page for them, just that some content is hosted by them, other by publications they contribute to
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GWG I have the hardest time figuring out author information on some sites
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GWG Not microformats ones, but..
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GWG And Jsonfeed will now support multiauthor...so maybe I should discuss it in microsub again
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@holman The real takeaways from all this mess: 1. Always aggressively and regularly over-communicate throughout your downtime 2. Why isn’t every developer committing this to memory https://zachholman.com/talk/utc-is-enough-for-everyone-right amirite (twitter.com/_/status/1234615993973919744)
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[yo] https://twitter.com/holman/status/1234615993973919744
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