#dev 2020-03-15

2020-03-15 UTC
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[chrisaldrich] cal, for your case I think that most in the community here would consider the copy that @threadreaderapp posts to one's website to be the canonical version (and it would likely be marked up on most CMS platforms as such), and the copie(s) that live on Twitter and on the threadreader website to be alternate copies.
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[chrisaldrich] As a result you would probably be doing a simple h-entry post and not a repost-of.
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[chrisaldrich] I might also recommend doing a basic post for the cases where platforms may not have micropub support for `repost-of`
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[chrisaldrich] For context, cal is building something based on this: https://boffosocko.com/2020/03/06/indieweb-idea-for-the-extension-of-threadreaderapp/
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[chrisaldrich] cal, it occurs to me that if you could also add syndication URLs to your initial post (rather than as an update) so that if the site supports it, it could show the syndicated URLs for the permalinks for each of the Twitter posts as well as the permalink on threadreaderapp (this would give you some additional inbound links and help to advertise your service and this use case). see: https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#adding-a-syndication-url
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jacky I like the RSVP badge used on https://events.indieweb.org!
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jacky it's like a little ticket :)
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jacky I can also think of a way to render that using CSS
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[chrisaldrich] The added benefit of this is that many here who show syndication links do so to pull responses from Twitter back using Bridgy.
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[chrisaldrich] What is u-syndication?
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Loqi u-syndication is a way to discoverably link from your original posts to syndicated copies on other sites like social media silos https://indieweb.org/u-syndication
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jacky but that might be a chance for me to explore using SVG, CSS and custom text inclusion
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cal @chrisalrich thanks!
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[jgmac1106] I can't figure out why this works here: https://codepen.io/jgmac1106/pen/vYOjOpQ but not here: https://jgregorymcverry.com/funh-card
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[jgmac1106] [calumryan] I have two extra kirby 3 licenses if you want one
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jamietanna[m] Folks hacking on today's IWC London Hack Day - remember to update the project goals https://indieweb.org/2020/London/Schedule#Sunday
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jamietanna[m] (woops, moving to #indieweb)
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[calumryan] [jgmac1106] that could be useful
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[calumryan] how does that work?
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[jgmac1106] it is a code, you enter it in
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[jgmac1106] the ToS suggest kirby should only be on a private or staging server for testing and you need a site license for a public page
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[jgmac1106] I keep teetering on whether I want to go back to Kirby, the webmention plugins would never work for me, but i think that has to do with my shared host
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[jgmac1106] So I bought three site licenses and only registered one so far, have two left
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[calumryan] Is there an expiry on them? I've a private installation that probably will take a few weeks before ready for public
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[jgmac1106] [sebsel] wondering if you can take any of [eddie] work that he was doing, not sure if he ope sourced on that
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[jgmac1106] if there is I will get it removed. I paid for them, they should work, let me know when you are ready. I really liked Kirby
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sebsel Kirby does not actually check nor block if you don't have a license key, so if you're just trying out it shouldn't hold you back
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sebsel if you continue to use it, make sure to grab a license. That supports it's development too
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[jgmac1106] yeah it gets no extra functionality, uses a trust model, also something I like
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[jgmac1106] the customer service and community forums are great too
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[jgmac1106] I bought an extra one because I was going to make a course builder app, but decided to stick withKnown and hired [mapkyca] to build a plugin
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sebsel And yes, I have Eddies work open in a tab. It's a project focused more on personal learning about how to do this stuff, tho. I do not expect useful output :P
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sebsel But: I will share if it turns out well
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sebsel my project is focused*
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sebsel [eddie]++ for the works
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Loqi [eddie] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (27 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] if it doesn't just join team Android
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[Murray] Stab in the dark on this one, but you seem to be using SCSS on CodePen but then not converting it properly on the h-card webpage. When I view source, your SCSS variables are all still there i.e. `$one` instead of `var(--one)`
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[Murray] I've never used SCSS though so might be missing something obvious 😉
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[eddie] What’s your project, [sebsel]? And yeah all my stuff is MIT (seems like the easiest open source available to someone who doesn’t know much about licenses)
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[jgmac1106] [Cheuk_/ Cherrie] I may try exporting webmentions to google sheets and then using something to publish them, sending/receiving still way past my skill
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[jgmac1106] [eddie], great rto see you! Hope the kids are doing well
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sebsel [eddie]: Just trying out some iOS stuff with Swift UI. At some point I thought it would be easy enough to make a Micropub client :)
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sebsel Then it turned out that there is no such thing as a <textarea>-like thing, only <input type="text"> equivalents.
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[eddie] [sebsel] awesome! Yeah one day I’d love to dive into Swift Ui, it’s pretty amazing from everything I’ve seen! That is awesome
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sebsel But I'll tutorial my way through
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[eddie] Ohhhh how strange!
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[eddie] Thanks! [jgmac1106] 🙂 slowly crawling out of my cave! Haha. Two kids under 2, a big work promotion and foot surgery. So it’s been a lot!
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sebsel It feels really VueJS / ReactJS-like, so in a way kind of familiar.
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[eddie] Yeah it’s definitely inspired by those movements for sure
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[eddie] As far as my projects. IndieWebKit is better at showing *how* things should be done and setting up for a path forward. Indigenous was my learning project so it’s functional so in that way it’s helpful to grab things from but it’s also a mess code wise lol
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[eddie] Feel free to grab stuff out of either
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[jgmac1106] how far did you get in the splitting into three apps? Last I rememeber
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[eddie] IndieWebKit was all I got out of the three. Essentially building the library that would allow me to build the three apps
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sebsel yes, that was one of the questions I had: IndieWebKit has big letters "do not use" on it. What parts are usable and what parts aren't?
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sebsel for now, I just use it as I go and figure out how to do HTTP
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[eddie] Haha essentially it’s not fully tested or used in a real app
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sebsel use it to watch and compare with the tutorials that is
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[eddie] So theoretically it’s fine. To look at and get inspired by but it probably doesn’t do all the things or might break in a weird way
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[eddie] Although I did start writing tests for it so those show what it can do
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[jgmac1106] tests++
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Loqi tests has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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[eddie] But yeah I would more grab useful pieces of code from it rather than use it as a dependency right now
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[jgmac1106] because I know snarfed is still probably sleeping
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sebsel I am not pretending to make a 'real app'. I need a learning project first too :)
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sebsel But will do, thanks again!
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[eddie] learning++
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Loqi learning has 1 karma over the last year
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[eddie] My pleasure. If you run into any questions along the way, feel free to ask. I’m not a Swift pro but I’ve learned some ins and outs while doing Indigenous. And I try to watch every WWDC video
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[jgmac1106] [calumryan] this is as far as I got with Kirby: https://github.com/jgmac1106/gregkirbyv3
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Loqi [jgmac1106] gregkirbyv3: My Kirby Testing Playground
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[jgmac1106] I think what I did for adding any url I added a drop down feature in the to select a reply, bookmark, repost, etc but I pretty much just published by using text editor not their UI
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[calumryan] I'll take a look thanks [jgmac1106]
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[calumryan] So far incorporated my weather posting section as a drafted plugin for Kirby
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[calumryan] Need to find a way to convert emojis in my sql dump
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[jgmac1106] [Cheuk_/ Cherrie] [LewisCowles] I may one day try to install Morris, but I am also thinking about trying to use gSheets to store webmentions using webmention.io (went to dev from main)
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[jgmac1106] would people call a torrent link a syndication link? https://jgregorymcverry.com/myvideos#ActiveReadinginCollege
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[Dan_Q] If it ultimately results in the same content, I'd say: certainly!
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GWG I need some advice
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[Dan_Q] Don't run with scissors.
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GWG I am going back and forth on storing data and querying it
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GWG Originally, I stored the author in a single field, as a serialized array.
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GWG I was thinking about switching to storing the name and URL separately, so I could query them and show things from the same author
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GWG Problem being I'm now experimenting with multi-author sources, such as news articles
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GWG Now I'm back to being unsure how to store it
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[KevinMarks] Is this in a set of dB fields or a json blob?
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@jgmac1106 Trying to get webmentions to display and working on the layout for my trip and run tracking posts: https://jgregorymcverry.com/myrunningtrail (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/IxB1n) (twitter.com/_/status/1239194182872379394)
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GWG [KevinMarks]: Well, this is WordPress, so meta fields are stored in a key value pair table
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GWG So, either I store properties individually as the value or as an object in the value
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GWG Actually, wait...there is a third option
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jmac I have a question about WM storage best-practice: Do folks download, store, and display author photo data, instead of merely storing the u-photo URL from the original mention?
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GWG Taxonomy table.
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GWG jmac: I would like to cache it.
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GWG It has been on my list since 2014
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jmac I have been doing the latter for a long time, and, predictably, all my facepiles more than a year old are half-decayed
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aaronpk jmac: I do download the photo and serve it myself, since otherwise there's way too many different hostnames that the browser has to load and the page slows down, not to mention that some of them disappear later
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[KevinMarks] And you get cross site issues between http and https
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[KevinMarks] Kevinmarks.com doesn't and the facepiles look bas
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jmac Right. It makes perfect sense... these are all consequences that weren't immediately obvious to me and my lazy initial implementation
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jmac I'll just switch to storing photo data. (Begs question of whether you key it on author URL, or just separately store the photo for every mention, et cetera...)
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jmac aaronpk: Actually I'm curious, do you keep a database of author photos keyed on authors' unique identifiers, to save space and such, or just naively store the image for every mention with an attached u-photo
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aaronpk I believe I store it based on the URL of the author photo
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aaronpk actually wait no the key is the hash of the image itself
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jmac (An aside: author names are just a mess with Bridgy-fed Twitter mentions, and there's nothing to do about it, because of how some people use Twitter. Replies to October blog posts will be from people's Wacky Halloween Names forever, on my website.)
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aaronpk that way if someone updates their photo but keeps the URL the same, the old posts keep the old photo and the new posts use the new photo
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aaronpk I decided I want the comments to appear with the author info at the time the comment was made, and not change later
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jmac Ah! That makes sense
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jmac I shall gratefully steal this key-on-hash strategy.
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jmac Good lord, I had "Ask IndieWeb about facepile image-rot" on my project list from April of last year. I have been out of it. Well, anyway: ✅
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aaronpk Please do! https://github.com/aaronpk/ca3db-ruby
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Loqi [aaronpk] ca3db-ruby: Content-Addressable Avatar Archive
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jmac Ooh, neat
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[jgmac1106] adding <a class="u-url" href="https://jgregorymcverry.com<?php echo htmlspecialchars($_SERVER['PHP_SELF'], ENT_QUOTES, "utf-8"); ?> "rel="canonical"><strong>My Notes</strong> to my notes to make one less manual change
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[jgmac1106] really need to think about away to store and call dt-published....that is biggest PITA, then I think about trying to automate rel prev and next
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[jgmac1106] getting way more IndieWeb projects done today then I expected
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GWG Still having trouble with this data issue
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jmac I am hoping for some extended IW productivity this spring & summer, since I am just now entering a planned break from work. (That external circumstances are encouraging me to stay indoors anyway is just an odd coincidence.)
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[LewisCowles] [jgmac1106] ++
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Loqi [jgmac1106] has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (76 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] yeah it was a fun little project I found from mJordan when working on subgrid, can't get it to work but the codepen is there
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb @cheukting_ho: I added webmentions to my site - you can see them at the bottom of https://cheuk.dev/2020/03/15/indie-webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/1239221749612531718)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb Neil Mather: I then can post RSVPs to my own site, and then can use http://brid.gy to send it to the external service too (twitter.com/_/status/1239223691621339138)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb Neil Mather: I have wordpress set up so that when I create an RSVP post it can be syndicated to http://brid.gy as well, so I've sent a pull request to Syndication Links for this (twitter.com/_/status/1239224110116413441)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb @jgmac1106: I added webmention support and display to my static site using fluffy's webmention.js (twitter.com/_/status/1239227348064632835)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb @SuzeShardlow: so I ended up changing my layouts to make them more DRY and use includes more; now I want to implement webmentions instead of discus (twitter.com/_/status/1239229274936283136)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb Lewis Coles: I have managed to get publishing from git to heroku now and started to look at sending webmentions from github, circleCI ran a script to send a post (twitter.com/_/status/1239230426306285571)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ #indieweb Sebastiaan Andeweg: I have been building an iOS app that will post to micropub - I now need to do indieauth and get a token too (twitter.com/_/status/1239234029196541952)
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[jgmac1106] aaronpk on another note my webmentions failing here: https://telegraph.p3k.io/webmention/145mWL5u9BuYRKcV0V/details
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aaronpk server error! wow
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aaronpk ok
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aaronpk hm the u-url is wrong, it's ending in .php
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aaronpk your site does redirect that to the non-.php version, but you probablyt shouldn't include the .php in the end
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[jgmac1106] ahh okay will look, I tried to automate my rel=canonical..when I manually add address I left off php
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[jgmac1106] I now remember why I stopped automating rel=canonical by calling the file name
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[jgmac1106] added this today: <a class="u-url" href="https://jgregorymcverry.com<?php echo htmlspecialchars($_SERVER['PHP_SELF'], ENT_QUOTES, "utf-8"); ?> will try and do it and see if I can remove the extension
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[jgmac1106] or go back to manual...off to buy a new bike helmet and some tubes..enough coding
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aaronpk hm yeah PHP_SELF doesn't always work, depending on how your site works
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aaronpk could try REQUEST_URI instead
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aaronpk anyway that's the problem with the webmention for your post, when the u-url of your entry doesn't match the URL of the webmention, that page looks like a feed because it has both an h-entry and h-card
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sknebel that feels like a wonky heuristic for a feed IMHO
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aaronpk i could special case the 1 h-entry and 1 h-card case
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aaronpk but without handling that specially, it is a list of two objects, neither of which has a u-url matching the URL they were fetched from
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[jgmac1106] for now I will go back to manual till it hurts until I figure out the best approach, canonical, next and prev....those are my automation goals for now
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[jgmac1106] have a great day all, thx for help
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aaronpk the problem is there's a *lot* of different combinations of things to look for when trying to parse a page when you don't know what the page is already
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aaronpk check out the comments in this function for an idea of what i am dealing with https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/master/lib/XRay/Formats/Mf2.php#L16
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sknebel I'm not sure how I feel about handling it with a redirect in place,
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sknebel but sure, it's a problem
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sknebel although "that's a feed" is IMHO different from "I don't think that works for a reply"
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aaronpk yeah i've been thinking about adding a parameter into xray for that too
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sknebel (but I'm generally in the camp of "if you mean a feed, markup a feed", so biased)
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aaronpk i have "expect=feed" when you know you're looking for a feed, which then does things a little differently
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sknebel (and xray maybe being a bit to much on the side of magic in some cases)
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aaronpk i could add "expect=entry" when you're parsing a webmention because odds are you're getting a reply from a post not a feed url
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aaronpk xray is magic because there's so many edge cases to handle
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aaronpk and i got tired of rebuilding that logic every time, and also wanted to be able to add tests
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aaronpk but it's true, if feeds were always marked up with h-feed then this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but that isn't really what's out there
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sknebel so here specifically I wonder why you look at the submitted URL and not the result of the redirect
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aaronpk the redirect is the other way
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sknebel ah right
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sknebel sorry
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sknebel hm
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aaronpk the webmention URL is the right no-php version, the url on the page is a redirect to the right URL. i don't want to have to follow that URL to see that redirect though.
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sknebel sure
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sknebel tbh [jgmac1106] should probably just use href="" as long as it isn't available under multiple urls
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aaronpk good call
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sknebel (but I guess since rel=canonical was mentioned it is? because if it isn't, you don't need rel-canonical either)
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aaronpk there's also a space at the end of that URL which is not great
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aaronpk href="https://jgregorymcverry.com/notes/2020-03-15-1.php "
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aaronpk but i think the microformats parser tosses that out
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sknebel that's valid html technically
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GWG aaronpk: I think we need a common scenario test list for xray and Parse This
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aaronpk that must be why the parser handles it
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aaronpk GWG: i have a ton of test files in XRay, you're welcome to test with them!
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sknebel "The href attribute on a and area elements must have a value that is a *valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces.*"
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GWG aaronpk: I have seen them. I just thought a list for people who make new ones might be helpful
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sknebel "A string is a *valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces* if, after stripping leading and trailing ASCII whitespace from it, it is a valid URL string."
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GWG Even if I create it from your unit tests
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aaronpk GWG: some of that is already on https://authorship.rocks
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aaronpk heh the python parser doesn't strip the trailing space
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aaronpk php and ruby do
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aaronpk sknebel: that step of removing leading and trailing spaces to get the value of the href attribute is strictly in HTML right? like the HTML value of the "href" attribute would not contain surrounding spaces?
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sknebel no
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[snarfed] !tell jmac re "author names are just a mess with Bridgy-fed Twitter mentions" due to people changing their names for holidays etc...true! one workaround if you're interested is, instead of rendering p-name, render p-nickname, which is their username. requires special casing bridgy twitter though. :(
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel HTML says "value is a url that might have spaces around it"
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aaronpk ah
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sknebel I think it's fair for a parser to strip those, but not technically required?
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aaronpk in that case the microformats parsing spec might need to make that step explicit? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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aaronpk the spec should be explicit either way though so that the parsers are consistent
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[KevinMarks] that seems like a good testcase to add
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[KevinMarks] especially if they diverge at the moment
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aaronpk -> #microformats
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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jmac [snarfed]: I am not sure I was aware of p-nickname, thank you! I am not overly concerned about it right now, it was just an interesting side-effect to discover only after building a longer history of bridgy-based webmentions.
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Loqi jmac: [snarfed] left you a message 7 minutes ago: re "author names are just a mess with Bridgy-fed Twitter mentions" due to people changing their names for holidays etc...true! one workaround if you're interested is, instead of rendering p-name, render p-nickname, which is their username. requires special casing bridgy twitter though. :(
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jmac It reminds me of the newspaper that has to run a correction that a certain tweet mentioned in a printed story was written by Jane Smith and not Jane ScaryBOO!!ghosts, as originally reported
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jmac Let the onus rest upon the snarksters
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@BryceWrayTX Based on the amazing site code from @reubenlillie (https://gitlab.com/reubenlillie/reubenlillie.com/), I have converted *most* of my site (all that I could) to JavaScript templating. Also went back to @talkyard_io for commenting, eschewing webmentions, due to code issues I couldn’t resolve. (twitter.com/_/status/1239251984118697992)
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cal What's the easiest way to test against wordpress.com for micropub? It looks like silo.pub doesn't support it anymore?
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aaronpk wordpress.com specifically? I'd guess you would have to make an account there
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aaronpk actually wait i think wordpress.com doesn't let you install plugins? only self-hosted wordpress does?
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aaronpk GWG might have an install up that he could give you access to for testing
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GWG aaronpk: A WordPress site for testing? I might
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GWG I need to finish migrating the one I use for IWC demos to the new server though
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GWG But I am also setting up for an extended work at home session.
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GWG If someone wants me to spin up a test instance, no problem in doing so in the near future
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@BryceWrayTX ↩️ Had to keep my posts list pages in the .njk templating — just couldn’t figure out the right way to translate the .njk to .11ty.js, even with help. Went back to @talkyard_io because couldn’t translate Max Böck’s webmentions code from .njk, either. Baby steps. :-) (twitter.com/_/status/1239264752838348803)
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[jgmac1106] You can pay a truck load of money to use plugins on WP. com
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cal yeah, I was wondering about the paid wordpress.com sites, never tried ($25/month) but have several users requesting it
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[jgmac1106] sknebel didn't know I could just use "" will try
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lowarago Hey, I have a website that I got from GoDaddy web hosting and I want to make a very simple login system. Now, I figured that my only option is to code it in PHP for better security. When I searched how it could be implemented with JavaScript, the results all pointed to server-side coding, like nodeJS. I think that I cannot run a nodejs on my web hosting. So, is PHP my only option?
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[fluffy] In webmention.js I wonder if it’s reasonable to get rid of the XHR fallback.
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[fluffy] I still worry about folks running on older browsers which don’t have fetch()
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[fluffy] Like I have relatives who are still running ancient versions of Safari or IE11
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[KevinMarks] Old macs, pcs and opera
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[KevinMarks] It's not much overhead in the code may as well keep it.
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[fluffy] yeah
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[fluffy] It just feels… inelegant
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[fluffy] at some point I should also look into doing paginated queries instead of just a one-and-done “oops, there were more than 30 webmentions, OH WELL” thing
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[fluffy] either with a “show more…” button if there’s more, or just automatically fetching them all. But the amount of load that’d put on things would be worse than just increasing the query limit, I imagine.
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jmac Good evening friends. This is me thinking out loud about a utility for the manual review and moderation of one's webmention inbox: https://jmac.org/misc/wm-mockup.html
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jmac I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this general direction, and in particular about why this is conceptually flawed
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jmac (I am thinking of a bright future where Webmention is starting to catch on a little and therefore spammer and ne'er-do-wells start to sniff at it)
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aaronpk one thing comes to mind which is how you know that twitter.com is a group domain vs the others
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aaronpk since you've got "allow/deny all mentions from twitter.com/example" there where the others are juts domains
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aaronpk if that's just the author URL, then that's the easy solution, but is quite different from a domain-level block list
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jmac Yes that's me cheating a bit by which value is pre-selected. But note that there's a dropdown there, which lets you select the base domain, or domain + path parts
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aaronpk ah i didn't notice the dropdown
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jmac Good old boostrap 4 making things a bit too jony-ive subtle, yeah
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aaronpk other general problems with full moderation like this is that it quickly gets overwhelming maintaining the list and people will often just giveu p
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/moderation
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aaronpk see some of the "see also" links
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aaronpk so rather than an "inbox" model, it can be nicer to accept/show everything by default, and have a quick UI to remove or block content later
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aaronpk of course there are exceptions on both sides of that argument, just saying in general
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jmac I want to ask "would it, though?" An unusual feature of IndieWeb is that the domain is the basic unit of currency, as opposed to account@domain. I may very well be naive but I think that making it normal to block/allow whole domains or top-level groups) at a time might make moderation easier than it seems
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aaronpk i'm not questioning that, but you've got an "inbox" model here which is the issue i'm pointing out
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jmac nod
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aaronpk where presumably in this model (unless i read it wrong), every new user/domain comes through this first
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aaronpk and sure once youv'e allowed or blocked a few, those skip the inbox, but you still have to check the inbox for new stuff all the time
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jmac I think what I'm thinking now is: At my traffic level? I kinda want that!
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jmac But that doesn't scale too good past a certain points, obvs
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aaronpk i definitely think it can work for some people in some circumstances
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jmac Would you feel more forgiving if this tool had a configurable global default action: either [Hold all unlisted posts for moderation] or [Accept all unlisted posts]?
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aaronpk like the rest of of indieweb, there's a place for a wide variety of tools that work quite differently, and everybody doesn't have to make the same decisions. If you think this is useful to you, then that's great! there will likely be others who agree, and also others who wouldn't use it for various reasons, and that's fine!
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jmac Haha, sorry, I think my tone sounded more defensive than I meant
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jmac I am honestly just trying to think this through... I simultaneously feel like this is unworkably flawed and also totally worth implementing
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jmac Focusing more on quick blocking than a full suite of allow/deny features might be a good way to go.
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[snarfed] jmac: definitely look at prior art! eg most existing blog engines/CMS have sophisticated moderation queues and tools. allow/block by domain is a bit less common but there are a lot of existing parallels in those tools with mature UXes, etc.
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jmac Yeah, domain-based allow/deny is the specific-to-webmention feature you generally won't find on other moderation queues, and I am interested in exploring whether that grants extra leverage somehow
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jmac Coz the majority of existing queues are focused on comments written right there on the website and stored in the CMS, I would imagine.
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jmac I slept through the rise and fall of Pingback so I dunno if I'm proposing to reinvent a thoroughly broken wheel
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jmac I am politely skeptical of Vouch and not 100% allergic to the idea of manual moderation, but I grok that "this will become unusably unscalable if it actually gets popular" is a bad path
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aaronpk is also skeptical of vouch fwiw
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[snarfed] some existing moderation tools do have allow/deny on a variety of signals, including IP, domain, domain in links in text, keyword, etc
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[snarfed] prior art ftw!
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jmac yup. That wordpress screenshot on the moderation page sure is pretty
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jmac Are there already WM moderation tools in the wild?
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aaronpk webmention.io has some rudimentary tools
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[snarfed] wordpress users use its moderation tools for wms too
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[snarfed] does know have any?
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[snarfed] er known
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jmac Anyway, I stand pretty well convinced that this isn't quite the direction I want. Gonna stick this mockup in the freezer and refocus. Thanks all.