#dev 2020-03-28
2020-03-28 UTC
simons, HbHighland, [tantek], Nuve, KartikPrabhu, [Cheuk], nickodd, [cleverdevil], [jeremycherfas], [Michael_Beckwi], loicm and gRegorLove joined the channel
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@frankmeeuwsen Gebruik mijn webmention endpoint om op mijn blog te reageren met je eigen blogpost - https://diggingthedigital.com/how-to-respond-to-this-blog/ (twitter.com/_/status/1243825408975482880)
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@kisik21 Why a centralized Microsub server might be a good idea: https://fireburn.ru/posts/1585393501 (twitter.com/_/status/1243856635942010882)
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[jeremycherfas] !tell dmitry I started off with a simple application of Tailwind.css and now, inspired by something from adactio, I am moving towards more fluid typography for text. I could not live without the Firefox Responsive View developer tool.
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[grantcodes] Proper fluid typography based on `vw` and `calc` is really cool
# [grantcodes] I'm thinking I'm going to separate my website frontend and backend into separate services. Anyone else do this?
# [grantcodes] Who is Charlie?
# [grantcodes] Doubt that'll work 😛
# 
Zegnat Sorry, my mind did not want to recall her homepage. Here: https://sonniesedge.co.uk/
# [grantcodes] Lol where did that loqi phrase come from
# [grantcodes] I've definitely seen this site before, just hadn't put a name to the url 😄
# [grantcodes] Ahh I thought loqi was going skynet on us
# [grantcodes] Well I started moving my frontend to next.js which is pretty cool. Not quite figured it out fully, but I can statically generate it pulling data from my backend, or run it serverless
# [grantcodes] What were your requirements Zegnat? I know you're trying out different cmses but not really why
# [grantcodes] And why not all micropub all the time? 😜
# [grantcodes] I've not used drupal for a long time, but last time I did I was confused 😅
# [grantcodes] Yeah definitely a distinct lack of editing support
# [grantcodes] To blow my own horn I definitely thing the postrchild browser extension was the closest to a good editing & updating experience we have in micropub, but it's currently too buggy and unpolished
# [grantcodes] Yeah WP is designed for people who don't know how to use composer
# [grantcodes] But if that's what you want https://roots.io/bedrock/ is solid
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[LewisCowles] shots fired. It's just a project that outputs vendored dependencies in it's public repo''s, which results in lower build time. It's definitely not worse than either needing to develop your own vendoring process or downloading from the internet every single time you deploy
# [LewisCowles] Right, but those didn't exist when WP was written, and to change WP to fit later projects is why Drupal is such a state of broken BC
# [grantcodes] Yeah I'm happy to recommend bedrock and anything else the roots people make in the wp world. They are heavily used.
# [grantcodes] The problem with WP + composer I run into is that I build sites for other people to use, so of course you want to give them control of plugins. But for a single user site for a developer or a site you work on full time the composer for plugins setup is great
# [LewisCowles] So you're mono-repo'ing, which is what causes the confusion?
# [LewisCowles] I'll admit WP having an entirely public folder structure sucks. It was one of the first things I liked about Python, CodeIgniter, Java etc. They got away from a filesystem + pseudo file system (rewrite) for requests and put all the request logic in an app, which mostly was not publicly reachable.
# dmitry jeremycherfas, what is your application about? I mean, is it a blog or what is it?
# dmitry yep, Loqi, I've just answered it. Good bot, anyway. What do you do with console.log? :D
# dmitry on the subject of separating frontend and backend -- do you mean creating a website, that will require tons of JS to render a simple page? What are the pros of this approach?
# [grantcodes] Haha yeah, I don't fully understand either. What I do know is that whatever way you are doing it you should set a min size and max size, and the screen sizes those should apply, otherwise you can end up with tiny or huge text
# [jeremycherfas] Did you see the things adactio linked to? Hang on.
# [LewisCowles] grantcodes, you might be able to keep a file with wordpress plugin slug and url's. That would help you to use wp-cli to get a similar deployment to composer if you desired that without a monorepo
# [jeremycherfas] That and the post it links to really helped me to understand it, to the point where I removed all font sizing from Tailwind and brought it into my `custom.css`
# [LewisCowles] Zegnat, you are not able to
# [LewisCowles] As-in WordPress provides no facility for such choice
# [grantcodes] dmitry: No js needed. But it would be possible to do that way if I wanted. Makes for easier maintenance and portability
# [LewisCowles] Never look into WPQuery if you wish to have familiar and modern affordances
# dmitry then I definetly don't understand what this separation means. How is it works?
# [LewisCowles] It's not a modern platform, it's a popular, working platform with modern formats
# [grantcodes] [jeremycherfas] ah that first graph on that post shows exactly what I mean! That post looks like it has more thought than I ever put into it 😂 I just set it up and use rems for most stuff and everything magically scales
# [LewisCowles] If you wanted to put a more modern platform in-front of WP, you could indeed proxy to the parts you like, or use it as a headless CMS with private admin space
# [LewisCowles] BUT generally that removes the orthogonality of plugins
# [LewisCowles] themes
# [LewisCowles] the way that project thinks about the world
# [jeremycherfas] I used to do that too; but I wasn’t entirely happy with Tailwind’s default font sizes, and rather than get into a full install of Tailwind, I decided to try and understand responsive type size. It has been very worthwhile. I’m still using Tailwind to set widths of divs and things like that.
# [grantcodes] On that wp + composer stuff if you use bedrock or something similar you can use those sort of libraries to do whatever you want. But in the WP world you're recommended to use only built in WP functions, mainly because most hosts suck, and WP is set up to run on like every server and php version imaginable.
# [grantcodes] dmitry: More or less the same way you were imagining with the js I think. Basically using api requests to get content. The framework I am using does server side rendering and then client side js for secondary pages (if you have js turned on)
# [jeremycherfas] !tell [snarfed] Just tried to huffduff a video and the dialog stuck at `Opening Huffduffer dialog …` I found the link in source and used it direct from the browser, and all worked fine. So, not sure what the problem might have been, but wanted to let you know.
# Zegnat On CSS and scaling typography, I really liked this article: https://fvsch.com/css-locks/
# [jeremycherfas] That’s a pretty good account too. Thanks zegnat++
# 
Loqi Typography is the art/science of making text attractive and readable https://indieweb.org/typography
# [jeremycherfas] I’ll do that when I have done my write-up. What’s funny is that the maths on that page is soo very simple, to me, but the CSS bits are where I am grateful for the extra illustration. I’m sure there are others who will find the reverse.
# [jeremycherfas] You’re right, and I’m trying to find a way to fix that, but not so far. Is it Fitt’s Law I’m trying to implement? I think so.
# [jeremycherfas] Anyway, those buttons don’t work equally well for all pages, which is something more important in the hierarchy of things to fix.
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[jgmac1106] [jeremycherfas] I use viewport font sizes, love them
# [jgmac1106] I don't have to write any media queries for fotns anymore....except in edge cases where I am mucking about with meaning
# [jeremycherfas] Thanks sknebel++
# [grantcodes] Zegnat: Both angles make sense to me with WP and compatibility, for everyone or just you. But if you're writing plugins / themes for yourself you can use any modern php you want. We use all the php 7 niceness at work.
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# [jeremycherfas] Zegnat On the strength of that article, I may even consider responsive line height. But not for a while.
# [LewisCowles] @GWG that's a joke right?
# [grantcodes] [jgmac1106] I think you should put mins and maxes on your font sizes css. It ends up super tiny or large with odd viewport sizes
# [LewisCowles] Do you have a post explaining it in more detail than what WP deems appropriate?
# [LewisCowles] Do you backport patches to 5.2/
# [LewisCowles] There must be more to this
# Zegnat [jeremycherfas]: yeah, it is definitely a step by step sort of thing to undertake. There are also some articles just about line-height: https://blog.typekit.com/2016/08/17/flexible-typography-with-css-locks/ . Interesting stuff in the type ecosystem :)
# 
swentel GWG, it has started .. https://i.postimg.cc/dVRCgdnS/indigenous-desktop.png ;)
# [grantcodes] https://make.wordpress.org/core/2020/03/20/updating-the-coding-standards-for-modern-php/ here's a recent post on wp code standards that covers the current state [LewisCowles]
# [LewisCowles] Thanks grantcodes, I'm aware of their guidelines page.
# [LewisCowles] It's a bit like at work, one of our engineers telling me rails guides said to do something that broke production
# [LewisCowles] Ah, that's not the page I thought it was, but it does aggravate me.
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# [LewisCowles] GWG++
# [jgmac1106] [grantcodes] yeah I need to learn more about that or what happens I start tweaking a page without creating a new selector and forget what I am doing to font size elsewhere
# [LewisCowles] that was the nuance I was hoping for
# [LewisCowles] I've been a bit spoiled of late with new language features
# [jgmac1106] Kartik helps me a ton, I love his typography
# [LewisCowles] If it's just more verbose code, it might be of benefit to stick to 5.4
# [LewisCowles] I really loved 5.4
# [LewisCowles] But then I really loved 4 too when it was released
# [LewisCowles] 7.4 will be the next. I don't know what it is about 4's
# [LewisCowles] ooh and it's 7.4.4 already
# [LewisCowles] I may be in-love again
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# Zegnat [LewisCowles]: Webmentions spec sections 3.1.4 and 3.1.5 cover updates and deletes. Which I think was never actually covered by Pingback. Though I am not 100% sure, as I have never implemented pingback https://webmention.net/draft/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
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# [LewisCowles] > If the source URL was updated, the sender should re-send any previously sent Webmentions, (including re-sending a Webmention to a URL that may have been removed from the document), and should send Webmentions for any new links that appear at the URL.
# [LewisCowles] That's the part I did, but it's led to duplication
# [LewisCowles] My side I use a document checksum + path to check if I should re-send. Following that part of the spec, I'd assumed the POST would be turned into a PUT-like operation using the target
# [LewisCowles] it's webmention.io btw
# [LewisCowles] It could have a bug, but I'm keener to explore if I've messed up
# [LewisCowles] curl command is curl -X POST -d 'source=https://www.lewiscowles.co.uk/mentions/2020-03-27-webmentions-for-a-static-site-using-github-actions.html' -
# [LewisCowles] ntion
# [LewisCowles] it may actually be that the source is different
# [LewisCowles] well... The service recognises that it's the www.lewiscowles.co.uk in the webmention
# [LewisCowles] That's the challenge
# [LewisCowles] They both list my site, because it's the canonical URL
# [LewisCowles] Actually, they don't. I just checked. It's my author that is the same, which is how I've confused mysel
# [LewisCowles] 8myself
# [LewisCowles] *myself
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# [LewisCowles] I don't know about blocking, but perhaps following canonical url?
# [LewisCowles] In any case it is my side, my bad
# [LewisCowles] I'll just document it as a limitation
# [LewisCowles] because the spec is unauthed in it's raw form, a limitation of it standalone is that DELETE verbs are difficult.
# [LewisCowles] I'm fine with design choices, it's not a complaint
# [LewisCowles] more "OH"
# [LewisCowles] and all I changed was authorship
# [LewisCowles] if an attestation token extension was provided for the spec, it could enhance a webmention, using indieauth in order for me to attest that I as the owner of `source`, wish to remove links with a given `target`
# [LewisCowles] so I would have an indieauth one-time token for www.lewiscowles.co.uk
# [LewisCowles] perhaps it then gets into the weeds on scopes for indieauth. I'll need to check if indieauth supports scopes
# [LewisCowles] It's more of a thoughts / notes to go next to my notes on webmention
# [LewisCowles] perhaps activitypub is a better choice for me. IDK
# [LewisCowles] I suppose it also matters how you think of a webmention, and it's meaning.
# [LewisCowles] deletion doesn't make sense if it's "I did like this, on date"
# [LewisCowles] because it was a fact
# [LewisCowles] my case is cluttered with fluff about my own setup
# [LewisCowles] which might not be a good approach for examining a spec or imagining extensions
# [LewisCowles] more fodder for my blog
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# Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indieweb.org/delete
# [grantcodes] swentel: How easy is it porting indigenous to electron? I suppose you need to rewrite everything in js? If so there might already be a bunch of code in together or my npm modules to help you 🙂
# [grantcodes] Haha fair enough
# [grantcodes] Also I think PWAs are worth considering over electron apps now. I think they can be installed on basically any desktop now
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# [grantcodes] Like I thought about doing it for together but now an installed pwa works great for me
# [grantcodes] Lol I was about to say you will have a lot to maintain - web client on top of drupal and android
# superkuh http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page - wiki down
# [grantcodes] I've not used the app in a while tbh, need to give it another go
# [grantcodes] Reinstalling. Might give you some feature requests to match it up with together on the web 😜
# [jeremycherfas] Fitts’ Law satisfied (locally) Thanks for pointing out the problem to Sknebel++
# [grantcodes] Hmm that's super cool there's a preview. But maybe a popup with the option to log in or use the unauthenticated would be good. Took me a second to figure out where to go
# [grantcodes] Added another that keeps me on together 😛
# superkuh Oh, back up.
# [grantcodes] I think it's mainly dark mode, mark read on scroll and the different views that I miss when I use other clients.
# [grantcodes] Yep, saw that one!
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# [grantcodes] I know next to nothing about android, but I would guess it shouldn't be too difficult if you're using default ui components and whatnot
# [grantcodes] Killer! That would be a great feature if it's easy to do
# [jgmac1106] coming in from meta, if I wanted to to do "similar authors" which is just a bunch of h-cards from my /following cards would I need to strip the h-card not to mess up parsers? Just strip them bc nobody's doing anything with the data so who cares? put it outside an h-entry?
# [jgmac1106] but I broke my /following pages into different php files to use them anywhere on my website and been thinking on idea of instead of "similar posts" I do "similar authors"
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# swentel [grantcodes], default is fairly ok already, https://postimg.cc/Bjnj3g20
# [grantcodes] Wow nice!
# [grantcodes] swentel++
# [LewisCowles] [tantek] [Zegnat] I have no interest in actually deleting the post
# [LewisCowles] or faking a 410
# [grantcodes] Either is fine. I think globally is probably the better way now
# [grantcodes] Then you can do the thing where it's light during the day and dark at night
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# [grantcodes] Nothing that's not already on the list 🙂
# [grantcodes] !tell schmarty I fixed a bug with `indieauth-helper` and updated dependencies while I was there, so it should remove those warnings you were seeing
# 
[schmarty] Ah neat! grantcodes++
# [grantcodes] Also it reminded me your other issue with build step in it. There is none! I could add one, but it would only be useful to generate something that can then be used on the frontend without a build step
# [jgmac1106] sorry dropped off zegnat usually my user error, I am almost confident I almost to author stuff right 98% of the time
# [grantcodes] A build step, so you don't need a build step 😄
# [jgmac1106] but want to play with this idea of "suggested author" since I already did much of the heavy lifting, only on articles, not notes
# [LewisCowles] I never said I didn't want to delete. I said those two methods are unworkable.
# [LewisCowles] The outcome I desire is that alternate copies of content if linked, assume and link the canonical form
# [LewisCowles] Deleting a file is not the same as deleting a webmention, even if the webmention spec only allows for signalling via HTTP; I'd sooner have the duplicate there (not truely my problem anyway) than perform strange flows to make them go away
# [LewisCowles] The file in this case is on GitHub
# [LewisCowles] So deletion would mean deletion in a commit for at least as long as it would take for webmention to pick it up
# [LewisCowles] a manual DELETE HTTP request would serve better, but I accept it's not in the spec, so I won't solve
# [LewisCowles] I'll instead leave the author with two links from the same content to their article
# [LewisCowles] Alternate and Canonical may also be poor signalling methods.
# [LewisCowles] and confuse this further
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[chrisaldrich] Zegnat, in your comparison of WP and Drupal, you might want to look at Backdrop CMS, which is a fork from Drupal about 3-4 years ago that has very closely tracked Drupal changes. Part of their goal was to be a bit less corporate/devvy and focus more on UI and ease of development/use for small businesses and non-profits.
# [chrisaldrich] I suspect you could modify swentel's indieweb plugin for it pretty quickly and it might suit your needs as well as be a useful project for the homebrew crowd who don't need all the power (or overhead) that Drupal typically brings.
# [chrisaldrich] I haven't looked at in a year, but I do remember liking the direction they were moving in.
# [LewisCowles] There was a problem with me being an idiot. I linked a github.io page instead of my main domain to update to test author information.
# [LewisCowles] There are now two links to one site, from a single piece of content
# [LewisCowles] It's not "a problem" as such. I'm fine with the understanding it is more of a pain to get the thing wiped than to fix
# [chrisaldrich] Zegnat, I'm not sure how much the editor UI may be different, though with their focus being on smaller agencies being able to support small businesses not needing heavy interface, perhaps there's some useful iteration/simplification to be found there.
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# swentel Zegnat, https://www.nginx.com/resources/wiki/start/topics/recipes/drupal/ looks decent though
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# swentel Zegnat, https://www.drupal.org/node/2767907 might help
# dmitry is it possible to config nginx with .htaccess-like file? I thought it could only be configurated with general config files, not in website folders
# dmitry if it's impossible, then it could be an answer
# Zegnat Looks like this is the ticket to watch, swentel: https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2385395 Created 2014. Yikes.
# dmitry agreed
# dmitry looks like all CMS, except WP, are in decline
# dmitry I mean, traditional CMS
# dmitry something specific like MediaWiki or TidyCMS, LiveStreet are more-or-less safe in their areas
# superkuh The best CMS is your filesystem.
# dmitry well, I guess it's an evolution. WP won fair and square. And now web itself are arguable probably declining
# dmitry but for personal use I wouldn't see why use WP
# dmitry it's unusable for literally anything I want to do on web
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# 
@prdpXbot What Is Webmention? https://pikseladam.com/what-is-webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1243998815922708480)
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# iamdave hrm, my page refuses to have it's h-card validated and I've stumped myself as to why/how.
# iamdave am I barking up the wrong channel?
# iamdave http://iamdave.co over to the right, beneath the hero image is where I've linked an h-card, just an <a> class yet indiewebify.me and another validator aren't seeming to see it.
# iamdave I take that back, suddenly things verify!
# iamdave Found another method of putting <link rel> in the head and there she went.
# iamdave hrm, maybe I spoke too soon. Going to continue fiddling, that momentary dopamine hit of getting one thing to work is promising.
# iamdave sknebel: interesting. Tiddlywiki is the backend here, which is node. Thanks for the pointer.
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gRegorLove iamdave, I think there might be some server issue fetching your page from indiewebify.me
# gRegorLove I got an application error trying to parse the microformats https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fiamdave.co%2F
# iamdave I'm able to throw some rawmarkup inside of <head>, maybe that's the ticket?
# iamdave that's a little ways down in my backlog, get around to rendering this as static html.
# iamdave she's...chonky right now :D
# gRegorLove iamdave, I'm seeing escaped HTML in your page, like `< div class` so that won't get parsed
# iamdave hrm.
# gRegorLove It's inside a <pre>, is your CMS or build doing that maybe?
# iamdave it is, I'm entering html directly into form fields for the elements that have class=h-card, which gets rendered at build.
# iamdave which has me thinking then, maybe I have to hack this manually and put this directly into the view template?
# gRegorLove Something's off; that's not rendered
# iamdave hm.
# iamdave un momento.
# gRegorLove actually maybe I'm wrong; maybe js is doing it
# gRegorLove But the microformats parser is just getting the HTML source, not anything JS does afterward
# gRegorLove [chrisaldrich] any ideas about ^ with TiddlyWiki?
# iamdave Success!
# gRegorLove woo!
# iamdave adding a class directly in the view template did it. Many thanks for the help troubleshooting this