#dev 2020-04-23

2020-04-23 UTC
kino, [jgmac1106], [Kevin_Faaborg], [fluffy], [chrisaldrich] and beko joined the channel
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gRegorLove
Hm, I'm running `composer update p3k/xray` and it's only updating to 1.8.2 for some reason
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gRegorLove
packagist shows the latest version, maybe a cache?
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gRegorLove
ah, guess I had to do `composer update` to get all the dependencies updated too.
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gRegorLove
that worked. nevermind :)
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aaronpk
yeah i wish there was some more debug output for that
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aaronpk
like “hey looks like you’re trying to update this, it’s being held back by these dependencies”
chimo, KartikPrabhu, [Aaron_Klemm], alexmingoia[dot], alexmingoia-dot-, alexmingoia, [KevinMarks], loicm, swentel, nickodd, [LewisCowles], [chrisaldrich], [tw2113], [mapkyca] and itsme1 joined the channel
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itsme1
hi
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itsme1
hello
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Zegnat
Good morning itsme1
[jgmac1106], KartikPrabhu, petermolnar, [mapkyca], gxt, loicm, [jeremycherfas], itsme1, [grantcodes], [jgarber], [LewisCowles], [KevinMarks] and geoffo joined the channel
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[LewisCowles]
well GitHub is doing Http 5XX errors (a range of them) to express how upset at my use of npm they are. I think I should take the hint and avoid Node / NPM
[tw2113], nickodd, gRegorLove, [mapkyca] and jamietanna joined the channel
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jamietanna
Jacky would you be able to share an example of your q=contact? Just want to confirm format is what I expect
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[tantek]
any reader / WebSub developers considered adding a "heartbeat" view or even subscription? could even be a dedicated separate reader
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[tantek]
it would show no content other than the datetime of the most recent post by the person, perhaps with a calendar view so you could see who has been active this hour / today / this week etc.
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[tantek]
you could subscribe to everyone you want to keep track of just whether they are ok by having posted something recently
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[tantek]
without having to be distracted by the actual content
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[snarfed]
interesting! last active status is definitely useful in messaging and other more realtime services
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[tantek]
except those are all proprietary
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[tantek]
but yes to the usefulness!
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[snarfed]
sure. fertile ground for researching prior art
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[snarfed]
i'd be reluctant to connect it to actual health or whether people are "ok," but definitely useful in general!
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[tantek]
I'm thinking a dumb simple solution without bothering with research into more realtime/finegrain stuff
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[tantek]
it's kind of a different problem / use-case IMO
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[snarfed]
(also there are definitely open messaging and realtime services! matrix, jabber, etc. we just don't think about them much here since they're not web first)
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[tantek]
the, have they posted something today and are ok? rather than, are they online now so I can chat them
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[tantek]
haven't seen matrix/jabber etc. display presence very well IMO
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[snarfed]
for that feature specifically, maybe so
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[snarfed]
i worry about equating "how often does someone post online" with "are they ok?" i definitely wouldn't "seem ok" in that sense.
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[tantek]
it's a first order thing
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[snarfed]
or at minimum, you'd want to base it on how often that person posts normally. and even then, it would fail when they go on vacation or camping or whatever
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KartikPrabhu
[snarfed]: yeah, I would be pretty dead from my articles feed :P
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[snarfed]
but framed right with enough precautions...maybe. i dunno.
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[tantek]
sure, then you could check their home page to determine that
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[snarfed]
i see the "online now" or "recently" use case as safer
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[snarfed]
determine it how?
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[tantek]
KartikPrabhu, it's across all public activity
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[snarfed]
even so, some of us go weeks without any "public activity"
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[snarfed]
at least determined by posts on our web sites
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[tantek]
e.g. posting in indieweb chat Kartikprabhu 😛
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[tantek]
across all places you post publicly
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[snarfed]
yeah that's better but aspirational
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[tantek]
doesn't have to be restricted to your web site
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[tantek]
anything with a feed
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[snarfed]
and even so, some people will go weeks or longer without. so it would need some pretty aggressive disclaimers
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[tantek]
Wiki contributions etc.
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[snarfed]
anyway. worth prototyping!
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[tantek]
snarfed, not these days 😛
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[snarfed]
definitely these days. i know many such people firsthand
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jacky
Jamietanna: just saw this, hold on
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jacky
tbh it looks just like the wiki
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jacky
a list of jf2-style contacts
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[tantek]
interesting snarfed. like bunker preppers? or tropical island disconnectors?
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jacky
spent two days working on my reply contexts to realize that maybe embedding the whole page's MF2 isn't a good idea lol
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[tantek]
lol jacky I feel this is one of the things we discussed in that reply-context brainstorming sprint with [schmarty] on the afternoon of day 2 of Summit last year
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jacky
oh? I was just fearful of having broken links tbh
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jacky
but that made a bigger burden for me
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jamietanna[m]
Jacky thanks - just wanted to confirm it was jf2 not mf2!
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[tantek]
we definitely discussed what subset of content to store / show, how to truncate etc.
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[tantek]
we raised more questions than answers
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jamietanna[m]
Tbh I'd prefer to show mf2 but if that's what folks are using 🤷🏽‍♂️
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jacky
ah yeah yeah
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jacky
jamietanna[m]: I think it was a simplicity thing on the client
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jacky
I'd prefer mf2 as well!
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jacky
tbh if a content-type header, you could prob make it respond accordingly
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jamietanna[m]
Yeah I'm thinking I'll do that
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Zegnat
hears content-type header and perks up
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Zegnat
!karma conneg
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Loqi
conneg has -6 karma in this channel over the last year (-7 in all channels)
jamietanna joined the channel
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jacky
eh I think it's fair to have it; it's less processing for some people (I have to convert things into jf2 manually on my site which is why I don't even provide it as an explicit feed type)
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jamietanna
snarfed I'm having issues getting dev_appserver running locally - what do we have to do for bridgy local again? Would be good to validate https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/937
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Loqi
[jamietanna] #937 Fix: Escape HTML tags in content
[mapkyca], leg and [LewisCowles] joined the channel; nickodd left the channel
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[LewisCowles]
cjwillcock++
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Loqi
cjwillcock has 2 karma over the last year
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Zegnat
jacky: I love content negotiation, but it can lead to some … interesting code. I think bridgy (or was it a different service?) hard-coded rhiaro’s site
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[snarfed]
tantek: none of my family (sister, parents, partner) really post anything public on the internet at all. a couple maybe once a year or so, if that. afaict only the minority of my friends or coworkers do either. private, eg messaging and email and maybe social, sure! but *public*? no.
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[snarfed]
jamietanna: happy to help? mind posting details?
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[tantek]
snarfed, sure, the family use-case is handled by direct messaging already. the "heartbeat" reader is not for that, no need to coarsely solve an already more fine-grain solved problem
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[tantek]
similarly for close friends, you're already messaging/calling with them
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[snarfed]
sure. this was just re, how many people in general post publicly online regularly
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[tantek]
this is not for that, sorry that wasn't obvious. no need to solve a solved problem
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[snarfed]
honestly i'm not convinced about using posting regularity for this "are you ok?" use case at all, public or otherwise, so i'll backa waay slowly
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[tantek]
LOTS. and I'm using "post publicly" very broadly here
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[tantek]
it differs for different people, e.g. some do wikipedia edits (which as a per author contributions feed), some do github commits, etc. little bits of public activity, feeds, what we consider things we might otherwise post / want to post on our own sites
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[tantek]
it's an indicator, it doesn't solve the full "are you ok?" question, it solves a big part of it in a nice, easy to aggregate, passive way
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[tantek]
you can build more from there, e.g. when someone otherwise active goes dark, a UI could highlight that, and then you could take direct action, reaching out, messaging etc. like you would today
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[tantek]
and it's less the "regularity" and more the "how recently did they do something that shows they are active" hence why I framed it as a "heartbeat" of sorts though I suppose that does imply regular=good, irregular=bad
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[tantek]
will try to think of another metaphor
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] Indie Map
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[snarfed]
tantek: understood
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Zegnat
jacky ^^^ hard-coded content negotiation ;)
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[tantek]
snarfed, I think there are community use-cases too, e.g. if it was more clear that we had "lost" someone who was quite active.
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jamietanna
That's odd Zegnat - am I reading that as Known simply rejects requests if you try and perform content negotiation?
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[tantek]
it can be an important way to watch out for warning signs for community health, i.e. if we start losing a bunch of folks who used to be excited, it might indicate that there was something that turned them off / drove the away, not enough to raise a fuss about it, just enough to stop bothering.
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[tantek]
maybe that's more meta though
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Zegnat
jamietanna: I don’t know, I just vaguely remember the conneg hardcode for 1 site
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jamietanna
snarfed - https://github.com/snarfed/granary/pull/203 is raised as requested :) Also realised it's failing because I was inside my virtualenv - stepping out of it allowed me to run Bridgy locally again
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Loqi
[jamietanna] #203 Fix: Escape HTML content before embedding in a post
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jamietanna
Fair enough Zegnat
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[snarfed]
jamietanna fwiw that known conneg comment is from dec 2016
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[snarfed]
looking at the PR now!
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jamietanna[m]
Ty! Not sure why coveralls isn't happy - I'm surprised I could cause a - 0.0001% coverage drop, but 🤷🏽‍♂️
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jacky
[tantek]: you talking about like monitoring one's post frequency to see if they're maintaining it?
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jacky
like not necessarily a health check
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jacky
but like "hm, they've been posting less than usual"
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jamietanna[m]
Thanks for the merge snarfed - is there anything I can do to help kick off a redeploy of bridgy?
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jacky
tbh I think a websub server could be a place to capture this
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jacky
(since if used, it sees when and how often stuff goes out into the air)
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[snarfed]
nah, thanks, i've got it
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[tantek]
jacky, eventually, sure, frequency analysis would be great. MVP is just detecting when they've vanished, when the frequency drops to 0
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[tantek]
or a way to quantify that would be time-since-last-post/activity
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[tantek]
hours, days, etc., then sort that highest to lowest to see who you might need to check up on
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[snarfed]
i may need someone to make me a disco chicken/honey badger meme of this 😎 https://snarfed.org/fb-api.png
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[tantek]
oh dear
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swentel
hmm can we say in microformats that a url will lead to say, a video ?
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[snarfed]
jamietanna done! feel free to try
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jamietanna[m]
That's done it thanks snarfed 🙌🏼
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Zegnat
[snarfed]: that email marks the end of an era, belongs framed in the indieweb museum
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[snarfed]
hah yes sadlyf
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[snarfed]
jamietanna++ woo, thanks for the PR!
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Loqi
jamietanna has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (34 in all channels)
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swentel
jamietanna[m], quick question re: https://github.com/swentel/indigenous-android/issues/341 is this in a channel that is a granary feed?
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Loqi
[jamietanna] #341 "Click on Author" does not work (with Aperture?)
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swentel
or some other aggregation?
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swentel
indienews might probably be affected by this one too
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[tantek]
what is POSSE to Facebook
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Loqi
POSSE to Facebook is the act of syndicating (at least some of) your content from your own site to Facebook https://indieweb.org/POSSE_to_Facebook
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[tantek]
^^^ snarfed perhaps add that screenshot there as a tombstone?
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[snarfed]
heh, sure
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[tantek]
Here's a thought about Indiewebify.me, in the "results" page for testing your site, it could display various achievements as badges! E.g. many (most?) of these would apply: https://indieweb.org/badge#Discourse
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[tantek]
and maybe even have a list of additional "grayed out" badges to "unlock" and how to do so
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[tantek]
cc: [jgmac1106] because I know he has opinions about badges
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jacky
for those of y'all with custom media endpoints
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jacky
do y'all delete media as you remove its reference from a post on your site?
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jacky
I have a test around this but I just considered the case where I might want to use the image elsewhere
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jacky
for now, I won't remove the media asset but I am wondering if I'm creating a situation where I'll have a crap ton of photos lying around
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[snarfed]
you know your workflow, but seems unlikely, and disk is cheap
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jamietanna[m]
Swentel I'll do some digging and get back to you tomorrow!
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jacky
right that's what I'm thinking w.r.t cheap disk [snarfed]
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jacky
the thing is, I plan to make it so that I don't rely on my in-built solution for a media endpoint (I'd want to use a fixed folder in nextcloud for it)
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jamietanna[m]
Jacky I keep all the files, haven't so far been bothered about space concerns
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sknebel
jacky: no connection between the two parts
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sknebel
on my site
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jacky
hmm okay
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jacky
then I'll follow suit just to make debugging / rationale easier ;)
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