#dev 2020-05-20

2020-05-20 UTC
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[tantek] congrats jacky, that's good to hear!
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[snarfed] that flow has been there for a while now, right? it's the one they launched mid 2018? https://blog.twitter.com/developer/en_us/topics/tools/2018/new-developer-requirements-to-protect-our-platform.html
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jacky it's the first time I'm seeing it!
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jacky I think it's because I'm using a brand new twitter account
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[snarfed] afaik it's for everyone now
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GWG I was looking at this Media Feeds API. Has anyone had a look at that?
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jacky hmm tbh making new twitter apps was very easy
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jacky like I made a new twitter account and got all of this working in hours
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jacky granted I did verify an email _and_ phone number
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aaronpk That's new
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aaronpk it used to make you go through a manual review process
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dansup yeah and mastodon was rejected lol
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[tantek] wow
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dansup yeah, anyways FediDB is entering public beta next week, https://mastodon.social/@dansup/104199201995368700
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Loqi [dansup] Next week FediDB will enter public beta.Can't wait to share the ActivityPub Guide and Developer Tools 😎https://FediDB.org #FediDB https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/028/882/759/original/324d1a3201c92feb.png
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petermolnar I've reached the point yesterday when I was staring at my site generator code and lost track of it. It's time for a rewrite/refactor.
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petermolnar It has too many wannabe smart automation and just too many features
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Zegnat There is such a thing as too many features?
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petermolnar yes and no. I has to many workarounds, things I should haver have made; for example, I have "smart" fallbacks for author name/url/etc, even though I'm the one generating the thing that needs to be parsed. It's the wrong way of doing things; I should have done those steps when I save a webmention, not when I'm parsing it. Parsing should be stupid and should fail hard if something is off, making me fixing it by hand if needed.
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petermolnar as for features: I added fun stuff that makes no sense. The worldmaps for the photos is way too simple to work properly; the fediverse stats is one of those "why did I even bother", and so on.
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petermolnar then there's also the schema.org experiment, trying to map everything to something according to schema.org, which didn't bring any kind of benefit in the end at all, only made my life a LOT more complicated.
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[LewisCowles] It's fundamentally impossible to do well in everything. Somewhere between everything and one thing is a balance. I air on the extreme unix and micro-services approaches, and tend to get quite bitchy about AIO software
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aaronpk [schmarty]: looks like a bug with meetable, it saw the webmention, then saw the "rsvp: no", but didn't confirm the in-reply-to URL
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[schmarty] aaronpk++ thanks for the change!
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Loqi aaronpk has 62 karma in this channel over the last year (214 in all channels)
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GWG I was looking at the Media Feeds API. Has anyone had a look at that for inspiration?
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jacky for twitter?
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GWG https://wicg.github.io/media-feeds/
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GWG It's a browser thing.
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GWG Enables web developers to show personalized media recommendations on the browser UI
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GWG I know we were talking about hmedia not long ago
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GWG And playlists and such
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jacky hmm this is a google thing
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jacky lol I wonder if it's a way to implement Google Reader in Chrome
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jacky ugh it's json-ld stuff
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jacky > The site will return the media feed document which MUST be a valid JSON+LD document.
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GWG I agree on the ugh, but I do like prior art.
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jacky yeah def
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GWG The same thing could be done with a browser plugin
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jacky wait
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jacky this is centralized around video?
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jacky https://wicg.github.io/media-feeds/#play-next-tv-episodes
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GWG For now.
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GWG Yes
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jacky it doesn't look like there's room for anything else
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jacky like it has very TV-esque language
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GWG It looks like Google is pushing it through the WICG
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GWG "To improve the functionality of [media controls]," the page reads, "we want to be able to add support for sites to recommend media content to a user that might be completely new or they might be something the user has started watching. This allows us to deliver a much better experience to users."
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jacky wait so
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jacky is this like extending the controls / logic / info that youtube videos do but to like arbitrary video feeds?
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jacky (tbh this sounds interesting but it also sounds like "how do we feed more content / engagement to users?")
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GWG It seems to be so that suggested content or playlists can work at the browser UI level.
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[schmarty] i absolutely abhor this idea!
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GWG [schmarty]: I can understand that. I don't like the idea so much as I want to be inspired about playlists and such by it
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jacky lol I can't tell if that's comical [schmarty]
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[schmarty] i think it is kind of humorous how much of an emotional jolt i get thinking about youtube's suggestion algorithm (for example) creeping into my browser even further.
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[schmarty] "Many browsers show content recommendations in their UI." - citation needed??
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jacky hmmm Firefox's start screen with Pocket
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jacky I don't know about Chrome
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jacky Safari with bookmarks
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jacky but yeah def citations needed
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[schmarty] mobile safari has bookmarks, frequently visited sites, and "suggestions from messages" (links in imessage that you haven't visited yet)
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[schmarty] and tbh i want to opt out of all of everything that i didn't explicitly put there
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jacky (that last bit feels a bit invasive lol - that's like my TV suggesting dinner based on what's in my fridge)
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[schmarty] the idea that clicking through some page w/ schema.org markup means i'm gonna see video suggestions from that site the next time i open a new tab is very icky to me.
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[schmarty] haha i am apparently in a very bad mood about this so i am gonna stop complaining about it here.
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jacky oh definitely - that's way too much info leaking
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GWG To be clear, I don't want my browser popping up new videos on me.
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk what is this nonsense
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this nonsense" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "this nonsense is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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GWG This nonsense is "A Little Nonsense Now and Then is Relished By the Wisest Men."
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Loqi ok
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jacky lol
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GWG Extra points if you got the reference
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[tantek] wow spicier than usual morning in dev lol
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GWG [tantek]: I didn't know it would be so controversial
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[tantek] took a quick look. y'all criticisms seem to be spot on. [schmarty] jacky aaronpk
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[tantek] also yet another use of .well-known
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[schmarty] thanks, tantek (also it was when i saw `.well-known` in there that i declared myself too angry to comment further 😂)
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[tantek] 😂
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[tantek] [schmarty]  jacky aaronpk I have tracked this down a bit further. appears to be an attempt to define how to do podcasting with Atom. but wow what a circuitous path. I strongly encourage you to give feedback, as "real world web developers" who have experience building / publishing podcasts and feeds, in the W3C TAG issue evaluating this proposal: https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/477
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Loqi [beccahughes] #477 Media Feeds API
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[tantek] Don't hold back. State your well reasoned experienced opinion plainly, directly, critically. If/when you think something is harmful to the web or web developers, please say so.
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aaronpk whoa
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[tantek] [KevinMarks], as your name is strongly associated with podcasting history, and you have background in feeds / Atom development, I think your perspective here would be particularly valuable (on that Github issue 477)
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[tantek] There is a timeliness aspect to this and comments in the next couple of days would be particularly useful to TAG evaluation
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aaronpk "Media feeds are currently limited to video content. Audio-only content such as music or podcast are out of scope for now."
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[tantek] yeah feel free to list any/all problems you see, both in bad design, and fundamental architectural errors / anti-patterns
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petermolnar that media feed api is ugly as hell
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aaronpk [tantek]: is it typical for a proposal like this to mostly gloss over the UX aspect?
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petermolnar well... anything schema.org is ugly to be fair
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aaronpk like, it's not terribly clear how they expect this to turn up in a browser
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aaronpk just "This allows us to deliver a much better experience to users"
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petermolnar saying that as someone who willingly used it for a while
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aaronpk which feels like a big "hey look at us we're fighting for the users"
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[tantek] petermolnar, yup, feel free to critique any dependency on schema
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petermolnar anything structured has some dependency
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petermolnar including microformats
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jacky aaronpk: right
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[tantek] aaronpk, users matter, you can cite the priority of constituencies
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jacky and from what I've seen in these situations from the Chrome team; they'll implement 20%, spec propose and continue implementing
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[tantek] petermolnar, except compare with Webmention spec, which made use of microformats optional, loosely copuled
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[tantek] *coupled
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jacky then push on channels for people to adopt and use their implementation as a reference (thus homogenizing it around their impl)
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[tantek] jacky, this one looks more uphill because they have to fight RSS podcasts
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jacky would they? I can see them pushing this into their newly launched netcast clients
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petermolnar [tantek]: your sentence is true, but doesn't invalidate mine :)
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[KevinMarks] Remember when browsers were feed readers too?
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[KevinMarks] I'll have a look at that Tantek
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jacky also I don't feel confident commenting on that ticket largely because I don't have a more personal "real-world" example of this being over-kill
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jacky like even my primary feed right now is busted (currently patching)
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aaronpk OTOH it seems like this might enable more websites to provide a youtube-like experience without building the whole UI themselves?
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petermolnar [KevinMarks]: or when email clients were feed readers too
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[tantek] aaronpk, you can admit to the user/author problem being a good one to solve, while noting how horrible the specific approach of the spec is, and offering up the alternative of using existing simpler building blocks instead.
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aaronpk my question was more do these kinds of proposals typically lack any sort of UX sketches?
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[KevinMarks] I have said for some years that we need a playlist tag
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petermolnar aaronpk: anything that involves Structured Data lacks UX sketches
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aaronpk lol
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[tantek] KevinMarks, there are a bunch of playlist tags / polyfills / web components out there, and that seems like something you could point to as prior art instead
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[KevinMarks] Weirdly we have it except that it's m3u files
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petermolnar https://github.com/wicg/media-feeds/blob/master/explainer.md#user-content-a-site-recommends-a-generic-video-to-a-user - that snippet is pain to look at.
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GWG regrets starting this
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aaronpk oh no, just found https://github.com/beccahughes/media-feeds/issues/10
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Loqi [hober] #10 Atom with embedded schema.org info
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[KevinMarks] Lol. I should propose my schema to mf2 thing for that
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petermolnar LOL. Yo dawg, I heard you liked structured data, so I put structured data in your structured data, so you can have parser to parse parsers.
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[KevinMarks] Surely if they want LD in feeds they should use RSS 1.0
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[schmarty] (from the HWC East Coast discussion) more details about what's changed in Beaker 1.0 if folks are interested: https://beakerbrowser.com/2020/05/14/beaker-1-0-beta.html
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gRegorLove I linked that on /Beaker too
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[KevinMarks] just remembered my half-finished glitch site https://it-me-web.glitch.me/
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[schmarty] oh yeah, that is very glitch.com-y and very good!
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[KevinMarks] this was the promises article that helped me get them https://web.dev/promises/