#dev 2020-05-21

2020-05-21 UTC
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[tantek] [manton] is there a JSONFeed approach to podcasts?
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[KevinMarks] podcasts have had video in before now, though audio is more common
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[tantek] I just figure an existing JSONFeed approach makes much more sense than a JSON-LD approach
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GWG [tantek]: There is.
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GWG It's in the spec
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[KevinMarks] the other approach would be Activity Streams which could `Offer` a `Video`
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[tantek] I’m wondering which of those is anyone implementing. I’d guess micro.blog already supports JSONfeed podcasts for example
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[prtksxna] Thanks for the update to post-type-discovery.js, [aimee]++
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Loqi [aimee] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
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[manton] [tantek] Yes, there's an "attachments" array that can include audio or video. Micro.blog actually doesn't do much with it yet, just because RSS is so universal for podcasts, but I'd like to.
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[KevinMarks] you should be able to make <audio> or <video> tags inline
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[manton] That's mostly how Micro.blog's podcast support works. It just looks for <audio> and automatically generates a podcast feed from it.
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Loqi yea
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[KevinMarks] `<audio src="https://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SingularityWeblogPodcasts/~5/4471ZdmO-Go/821277562-singularity1on1-ada-palmer.mp3#t=02:17:30" controls />`
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[manton] Has there been recent discussion about using JSON-LD that I missed?
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[KevinMarks] my rather clunky example, but the fragment support is fun
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[KevinMarks] there's a weird proposal for attaching recommended media to sites in JSON-LD
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[manton] Scrolling back, thanks.
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[tantek] manton yes there is a Google proposal called media-feeds: https://wicg.github.io/media-feeds/
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[tantek] so far it is making very little sense to anyone here so we're all trying to figure out how to politely provide critique as well as suggestions to use existing building blocks instead
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[manton] Ugh. Yeah, I'm seeing all of this for the first time and trying to make sense of it. I just assume anything JSON-LD is too complicated to be widely implemented.
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[manton] Also confused about which problems this is trying to solve. In the "explainer" document from February, they say:
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[manton] > Media feeds are currently limited to video content. Audio-only content such as music or podcast are out of scope for now.
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GWG [manton]: How would you improve podcast JSONFeeds?
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[manton] @GWG I think the format is fine. I would just use them everywhere! 🙂 We've done very little to encourage podcast clients to support JSON Feed.
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GWG [manton]: Is there a list of people publishing and consuming them?
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[manton] I haven't looked recently, but there was a lot of activity early on. I blogged about it here: https://www.manton.org/2017/05/31/json-feed-for.html
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Loqi JSON Feed for podcasts
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GWG [manton]: Any news on 1.1?
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[manton] I think the most popular podcast player to support it was Breaker. Mostly the support was on the publishing side.
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[tantek] manton, for podcast clients to implement them, need to start with at least some publishers supporting them right?
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[tantek] oh wait does Breaker already support JSONFeed podcasts?!?
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[manton] @GWG Yes, should be soon actually. Brent is transferring the domain name to me this week, and then I'll make version 1.1 live.
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[tantek] nice
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GWG [manton]: Is the mime type registered? The new one?
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[manton] [tantek] Yes, Breaker added support back then and I assume it still works. Haven't tested recently. I think all of this stuff needs to be dusted off a little.
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[manton] @GWG Nope. I think a few folks offered to help register it, but I haven't done it myself. Might need some pointers.
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GWG https://www.iana.org/form/media-types
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[manton] Thanks!
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GWG I was reading about it not long ago in a different context
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aaronpk i wish i had energy to help with this but i am tied up in an oauth battle at the moment
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aaronpk i’m pretty sure i have a limited brain space for standards fights
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GWG aaronpk: What OAuth battle?
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aaronpk Join my happy hour livestream tomorrow and i am sure I will be talking about it
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GWG aaronpk: You don't sound like it will be happy.
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GWG But I hope it works out
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[tantek] aaronpk, yeah the oauth battle sounds much harder
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[ColinMorris] Sounds like a call for UberBeerAsAService.
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[jeremycherfas] Given what Marco just tweeted about Joe Rohan and Spotify, he might be a good person to ask to support jsonfeeds in Overcast.
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jeremycherfas Having a little bit of a cleanup at Twitter. Anyone know what the app erasednnnnnnn is about?
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swentel never heard of it
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jeremycherfas I seem to have a few with read and write access.
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jeremycherfas Might revoke just to see what happens.
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jeremycherfas And another dumb Twitter question: can you get pure chrono timeline in a browser on desktop, or is that really only in iOS or Android?
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swentel hmm there's a setting at the top no?
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swentel the icon that looks like a start a bit
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swentel er, *star
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jeremycherfas Oh, I misread the insturctions. Thanks.
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[KevinMarks] gah AppEngine has deprecated the GoogleAppEngineLauncher and it's API, so I will need to jump through a whole now bunch of hoops now to change things, and I'm not sure I can be bothered
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[KevinMarks] this changes what would be a one line fix into learning a whole new toolchain
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[snarfed] [kevinmarks] gcloud isn't too much different than appcfg, and isn't too bad to ramp up on if all you need to do is deploy
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[snarfed] migrating to the python 3 runtime, on the other hand, that way lie dragons
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[KevinMarks] yes, I looked at Python 3 before and I basically need to replace all the services I use as well, at which point I may as well rewrite the whole thing
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[snarfed] right 😢 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-appengine/BXHOXut7yGA/U5CpS1OKAQAJ
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[KevinMarks] this is snotty deprecation though. "you must delete the application and version from the yaml, we can't just ignore them or migrate for you"
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[KevinMarks] is AppEngineLauncher going to stop working too?
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[LewisCowles] Are there good reasons KevinMarks? Also what timeframe was it from notification to deprecated? I'm happy to look at python 2 to 3 conversions for OpenSource work to benefit community. No Google hosting / PaaS experience though. Always avoided them
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[KevinMarks] I can see why they want to deprecate Python2, but there is a whole toolset there that I found handy to make these little webapps
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[KevinMarks] right, so they did break the tool I use to run locally
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[KevinMarks] so that's a big pile of cognitive load that I am really not up for this afternoon
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[KevinMarks] so, I fixed the error handling for when URLs don't resolve, and now it's catching up with the stalled webmention queue from the last year or so
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[schmarty] KevinMarks++ hugops++
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Loqi hugops has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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Loqi KevinMarks has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (56 in all channels)
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[schmarty] That is an extremely sneaky set of deprecations and cloud service bit rot!!
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[LewisCowles] schmarty, generally is with these providers. Partially it can be to resolve security issues, but mostly it's to please over-paid, over-valued developers.
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[LewisCowles] There are also marketing benefits to having someone psychologically sink time into your product-line. The internal mental dialogue is "I don't think I'm an idiot" or "I don't want others to think of me as an idiot". This leaves devs with little choice but to reinforce the branding of promoting their languages, tooling and providers as better; often with zero logic. It's disgusting, but it seems to work.
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[LewisCowles] The subtly different synonyms for similar processes is about controlling language and thought. You might talk to a microsoft developer who only knows about DLL's. There are specifics which make them separate to *nix .so Shared Objects, but aside from the vendor-glue, they fulfill the same purpose.
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aaronpk ooo https://www.manton.org/2020/05/21/if-youre-using.html
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Loqi If you’re using iA Writer, check out version 5.5.1 now in the App Store. They’ve improved Micro.blog sign-in, plus other fixes.
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[manton] That iA Writer update does have the JSON "type" array fix too.
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[KevinMarks] Nice
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[KevinMarks] So I've been looking at https://wicg.github.io/media-feeds/ and I'm confused in several dimensions
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[KevinMarks] It's not a media feed, it's a video playlist suggestion
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[KevinMarks] Now a link/a rel="video-suggestions" is somewhat plausible.
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[KevinMarks] But how it is bound to the user needs more discussion. Is it cookie linked? Is there an auth involved? Or does the site make the suggestions for each user available at a user specific url?
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[KevinMarks] Certainly using well-known is a mistake and overloading rel="feed" with a generic json LD format to signal n this is bad
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[KevinMarks] That could be an activity stream
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[KevinMarks] In fact you could do this with existing activity stream vocabulary
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[KevinMarks] Or a more general rel="suggested-media feed" with support for multiple types - rss/atom/as2/json feed/h-feed. All of those exist now
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[KevinMarks] Publishing this without user visibility is very odd and likely a gdpr profiling violation
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[manton] [KevinMarks] Interesting point about user visibility. I haven't read all of Media Feeds yet, but just skimming it I was confused what it was trying to do that can't be done with existing solutions.
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aaronpk it sounds like the core of their argument is that there isn't an existing "feed" format that describes videos or playlists
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aaronpk (then they go define a JSON-LD format using their schema.org whitewashing)
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[manton] RSS enclosures can definitely be used for videos.
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aaronpk there were some responses to that here https://github.com/beccahughes/media-feeds/issues/10
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Loqi [hober] #10 Atom with embedded schema.org info
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aaronpk specifically https://github.com/beccahughes/media-feeds/issues/10#issuecomment-593648828
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Loqi [beccahughes] I don't think Atom/RSS is the right solution here. Browsers do not have native support for Atom/RSS + RDFa which is going to be harder to implement than JSON-LD which is an extension of JSON which is not a new format a browsers already have pretty so...
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[tantek] aaronpk s/whitewashing/openwashing I think you meant
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk whoa https://openwashing.org
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[tantek] also it's pretty ridiculous to frame JSON-LD as "just" an extension of JSON because in practice if you want "real" JSON-LD, it's a completely new processing model with a TON of RDF/SemWeb baggage you have to implement
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[tantek] [manton] re: "RSS enclosures can definitely be used for videos" I'm going to take a wild guess that both Flickr and Vimeo have been doing so successfully for quite some time.