[tantek]KevinMarks I miss the rate of optimistic innovation & building we had in 2004-2006. And I wish we had the understanding (we have now) to deal with the nasty trolls back then
sebseljacky: It's not out of the blue that they jump on the Github ship. A group of people already wanted this for a long time and this gave them the excuse
[manton]I like the proposed “beyond Webmention.io” pop-up session. I’m sure the focus will mostly be on self-hosting, but I’m also curious if there can be more services that are compatible with Webmention.io. For example, I have a feature in Micro.blog that will return the same JF2 as Webmention.io. I’d like to do more like that.
[manton][jacky] That makes sense. It just made me think about how to kind of spread the load from Webmention.io to other sites, or make it easier to move between services.
jackyoh that's a good point too (reminds me about having a shared/common interface for fetching Webmentions - hopefully can be used as said export mechanism)
aaronpkyeah i'd love to see us standardize on a front-end api for retrieving webmentions so people can make libraries and stuff that works with things other than webmention.io
aaronpkwow i really need some better logic around handling timeouts and stuff for my activtypub delivery. it's kind of a mess right now and depending on the failure mode, one person's server might hang the rest of my delivery for like 30 seconds
[manton]Yeah. And I guess one question is whether any of that should be part of the Webmention spec itself, or just a separate common interface that a lot of people use.
[grantcodes]I love docker for running random tech stuff. I really do not want to learn how to install dependencies, run builds, bind to ports etc etc in whatever language the project is written in.
[tantek], [Rose] and [schmarty] joined the channel
[schmarty]still thinks Vouch is plumbing in search of a use case but excited to see some discussion about person-centric ways to mitigate the issues vouch purports to solve.
[tantek]Vouch was a first attempt at solving the use-case of trying to allow for new/interesting responses without being burdened with moderating everything
[tantek]problem is we never got far enough with actual usable/interoperable implementations to get a feel for how well it actually solved that use-case, so it's kinda been stuck at the level of "interesting plumbing, worth considering?"
[tantek]aaronpk, pretty sure you were there for that session in, I think 2013, at IWC MIT / Cambridge where we discussed the person-centric use-cases first before figuring out *a* protocol that *might* solve them
[tantek]it's much easier to relate to the (pre-pandemic at least 😞 ) problem of throwing a house party where you do want it to be semi-open to *some* folks you don't directly know
jackylike in a physical social env kind of way (5 people in a room, three pairs of them know each other so the ones out are then introduced by the common bridges)
[tantek]Twitter has a feature where you can set a tweet to only allow replies from people you follow. What would be even more interesting is if you could allow replies from people that *they* follow as well
[schmarty]jacky: I think there are some good ideas to explore around "social graph"-like relationships for sure! I think Vouch in particular is too much about protocol and not enough about user experience.
[tantek][schmarty] it's likely we didn't capture the use-case / desired UX well enough at the initial brainstorming in 2013, and since then as aaronpk pointed out, the discussions have been so protocol-centric that they lose focus of the use-case 😕
[tantek]like a feature for "allow responses only from people I follow or have linked to and people they follow" (not a great description, but that's kind of an intent)
[schmarty]I think a recent time talking about Vouch we ended up discussing some big changes to approach, like dropping the assumption that webmentions are open by default
[schmarty]OH also a huge one for Vouch was questioning the idea that one should expect that sending a webmention means seeing it on the receiver's post.
[schmarty]for sure! but then that also raises a big question for vouch which is, like: when do i as a sender need to go add a vouch to a webmention i want to send?
[schmarty]yeah, just one example of Vouch adding an implied human-in-the-loop where i would say most implementations are explicitly designed to be invisible.
[tantek]but yeah, since then I'm much more leaning towards rethinking the problem again from the perspective of questioning the social media assumption of "open responses" by default
[schmarty]so that lets the sending system know a webmention won't be accepted without a vouch. but from there the /Vouch docs kind of drop into hand-waving territory
[schmarty]> you can decide how much intermediate UI you want to show, "The comment you sent is awaiting some form of vouching that they link to that links to you" with a URL field to enter. Plenty of opportunity to crawl, cache, innovate there.
[tantek][schmarty] yes, that's deliberate because we literally had / have not figured out a "good" set of UIs and thus needed to (still!) encourage experimentation
[schmarty]one thing i love about these discussions of Vouch is how they shine a light on things that may be helpful to have in general, like encouraging webmention sending systems to have a way to surface stuff to you.
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[tantek]Understanding of "social media" systems and things like "respectful responses" has grown and innovated considerably since 2013, the context within which Vouch was proposed
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jackybut I'm starting to move into the mindset that I'd tap to make this public by default (like if I syndicate the post then it can be considered public unless I also mark that the syndication target can support a protected or private visibility)
jamietannajacky I'd guess most folks are comfortable with the public-by-default, but I'd be interested to hear if there's a wider consensus against that
aaronpkit's not about what the user wants, it's about what the app sends to the server. the app can default to unlisted posts in the UI, it would just always send that parameter in the micropub request
jackyI guess that's me overloading 'visibility' as like "visible to who?" versus "how visible is this on my site when accessed via another means that is or isn't a direct link)
[tantek] vilhalmer (from #indieweb) re: h-, see https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-prefixes (which I realize is long) and in particular "The 'h-' prefix is based on the existing microformats naming pattern of starting with 'h'."
KartikPrabhu maybe "o-" for object would be better but oh well too late now!
@GallantIdeas I've updated http://gallant.dev, now with comments, webmentions, and other #indieweb goodies. https://gallant.dev/posts/a-blog-reborn/
Expect continued irregular posting and unnecessary verbiage. (twitter.com/_/status/1377088543504224259)
[Kai_Vong] there is a book: Microformats Made Simple, Emily P. Lewis and a tech review by [tantek] Çelik
@tomlarkworthy After I brief detour for #WomansHistoryMonth and helping a friend with their startup I am BACK TO INDIEAUTH/RelMeAuth (twitter.com/_/status/1377152588311715844)
[manton] I like the proposed “beyond Webmention.io” pop-up session. I’m sure the focus will mostly be on self-hosting, but I’m also curious if there can be more services that are compatible with Webmention.io. For example, I have a feature in Micro.blog that will return the same JF2 as Webmention.io. I’d like to do more like that.
jacky for those reading and curious to what that session is: https://indieweb.org/2021/Pop-ups/Sessions#Webmentions_Beyond_Webmention.io
[grantcodes] I love docker for running random tech stuff. I really do not want to learn how to install dependencies, run builds, bind to ports etc etc in whatever language the project is written in.
[schmarty] still thinks Vouch is plumbing in search of a use case but excited to see some discussion about person-centric ways to mitigate the issues vouch purports to solve.
[KevinMarks] Do we reframe vouch as a proposed way to construct an allow list?
jamietanna jacky I'd guess most folks are comfortable with the public-by-default, but I'd be interested to hear if there's a wider consensus against that