#dev 2021-04-06

2021-04-06 UTC
Seirdy, KartikPrabhu, [scojjac], [tantek] and [fluffy] joined the channel
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[fluffy] Hm, the indieauth.com setup instructions don’t provide a <link rel=“authorization_endpoint”> example. It only discusses how to use it as a RelMeAuth provider for things that specifically use indieauth.com for login, as opposed to using it as a generic IndieAuth endpoint. Is that intentional?
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aaronpk No but kind of. I'd really like to avoid more people using it for that
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aaronpk One of these days I'm going to finally do a big push on building the replacement for the other half of it
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tomlarkworthy I have token minting working now for my version of it. Hopefully it will make it trivial to pseudo-self host, I think my hosting costs are about <$0.05 a month. WIP and full of security holes and typos but https://observablehq.com/@endpointservices/relmeauth
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tomlarkworthy Login example is here https://observablehq.com/@tomlarkworthy/oauth-examples#relmeauth
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tomlarkworthy its not functional though, I jsut thought it was topical to show, I hope it will be working properly by end of week
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tomlarkworthy maybe I could hire you for a day @aaronpk to give it a real code review later (not yet)
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aaronpk Probably not code review but maybe API review :-)
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[fluffy] [aaronpk] okay that’s kind of what I figured
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[fluffy] I’ll avoid mentioning it in my moz presentation then
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[fluffy] For IndieAuth providers I’m listing SelfAuth and the WordPress IndieWeb plugin, and for clients I’m mentioning indielogin.com and Authl (because I’m biased), and then also linking to the indieweb wiki page for more.
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[fluffy] I’m calling the presentation “A Little About All About IndieWeb” and it’s just a general overview of the why and the how. Discussion of the core tenets, and a 20,000-foot overview of webmentions, indieauth, micropub, brid.gy, and a couple of platforms (particularly the wordpress plugin, micro.blog, and, of course, publ, because shameless self-promotion)
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@CodingPotions ↩️ ¡Muy buen artículo! No hay tantos en español hablando de la IndieWeb. Ahora que lo pienso, ¿se podría implementar un webcomponent para que sea más fácil mostrar las webmentions? (twitter.com/_/status/1379350227287674880)
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aaronpk Sounds great fluffy
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aaronpk you could mention micro.blog as an IndieAuth provider even tho it's not standalone
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@idiazroncero Webmentions y eleventy. Todo lo bueno se junta (twitter.com/_/status/1379459362037624834)
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@SunhouseCLG May I say @soMelanieSaid that I admire your website design? https://melanie-richards.com/ I've have never heard of, but am also wow'd by your book highlights pages. ( I can't figure out how to use webmentions, though. ) (twitter.com/_/status/1379463564235173889)
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[tantek] what is diagram
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Loqi Visual representation, sketch notes from talks, building block logos, images, and slide deck templates you can use in your talks https://indieweb.org/diagram
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[tantek] [fluffy] since this is a developer crowd, would that graphic ^ help illustrate how the topics you mentioned fit together and enable various use-cases?
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[tantek] genuinely curious if you think it would help or not, or be meh
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[fluffy] Hm, I’m not terribly interested in that graphic just because it focuses way too much on micropub/microsub which aren’t the parts of indieweb that most folks I’ve talked to are interested in
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[tantek] interesting
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[fluffy] also it’s kind of hard to visually parse because of all of the weird color triangles
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[tantek] these are good criticisms
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[fluffy] oh also it’s really hard to get a sense of the flow visually just beacuse the steps are in this weird arbitrary physical placement
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[fluffy] starting at the lower left is peculiar
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[fluffy] I guess it’s all clockwise from there though
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[tantek] diagram << Suggestions for improvement / perhaps alternate diagrams: 1. clean-up all the various colors used so they're minimized (per Tufte) and used to clearly convey specific meanings. 2. re-orient/reformat diagram to focus on user features enabled by Webmention+microformats first & foremost, and the other protocols only secondarily. 3. start at the top left, instead of lower left. or perhaps top middle if it's going to be a clockwise cycle,
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[tantek] like noon.
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Loqi ok, I added "Suggestions for improvement / perhaps alternate diagrams: 1. clean-up all the various colors used so they're minimized (per Tufte) and used to clearly convey specific meanings. 2. re-orient/reformat diagram to focus on user features enabled by Webmention+microformats first & foremost, and the other protocols only secondarily. 3. start at the top left, instead of lower left. or perhaps top middle if it's going to be a clockwise cycle," to the "See Also" section of /graphics https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=75198&oldid=63537
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[fluffy] in my slide on “displaying webmentions” I have three tiers: client-side render with webmention.js, render server-side or use a webhook to render static pages, or “galaxy brain: don’t display them at all”
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[fluffy] anyway what I’m focusing on are the aspects of how indieweb is about modularity and optional implementation of stuff, and how easy it is to get into the basics of running an indieweb site
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[fluffy] people who are interested in the deeper details can go down the wiki rabbit hole themselves
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[fluffy] as it is I have 30 slides and 1 hour and this crowd asks a LOT of questions
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[fluffy] I’m anticipating sidetracks into dweb and activitypub
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[fluffy] (but am purposefully not making slides for those things, I don’t want this to be a ‘feature comparison’ thing)
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[fluffy] well I am mentioning bridgy fed as a means of getting partial activitypub support ‘for free’
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[fluffy] (really on snarfed’s dime but, y’know)
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[fluffy] the order (and implied priority) in the talk is: 1. what is indieweb/core tenets, 2. webmention (and things you can do with it like brid.gy), 3. indieauth, 4. micropub, 5. everything else
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[tantek] that makes A LOT of sense, both as an outline, and strategically to keep the discussion focused and practical (instead of distracted into more academic/hyped stuff)
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[tantek] looking forward to hearing how it goes!
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[tantek] hoping you can share some form of the slides, even as an outline, for re-use 🙂
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[fluffy] yeah, I should be able to
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[fluffy] we also record our sessions so I might be able to provide ethat
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[tantek] nice!
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[tantek] even better!
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[fluffy] oh I should add a slide about the wiki and summits and stuff
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[KevinMarks] if you want a cool webmention demo webmention.herokuapp.com does live page updates
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[KevinMarks] send a webmention to this page while It's open and it will appear http://www.kevinmarks.com/justanote.html
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Loqi a note to demo webmentions 2016-08-24
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[chrisaldrich] [fluffy] I'd be curious to see your slides as I'm starting prep on a similar presentation in a couple of weeks, but it's geared to a completely non-dev crowd.
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[chrisaldrich] I've been looking at that diagram and figure out how to redesign it so that the person's website is either in the center or at the top to provide that as the centerpiece (from an indieweb framing at least) and the other parts are smaller building blocks that stem off of it.
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[chrisaldrich] or focus on the things and de-emphasize the tech jargon and plumbing as smaller fonts & arrows indicating the flow of data.
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[chrisaldrich] with the primary things being individual websites and readers
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[KevinMarks] Tantek and I did one of these talks at redecentralize that he wrote up here if you want to look at structure and order: https://tantek.com/2019/301/b1/redecentralize-indieweb-standards-methods
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] #Redecentralize 2019 Session: IndieWeb Decentralized Standards and Methods
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[KevinMarks] videos https://youtu.be/U75Dc1IHy-c?t=1565 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1HUdlnvEHU
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[KevinMarks] these were more dev-focused
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[fluffy] oh cool, I’ll try the webmention.herokuapp thing
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[KevinMarks] I can make you a clean sample page if you want
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[fluffy] oh, also looks worth adding to the slides as an alternative to webmention.io/webmention.js
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[KevinMarks] it's nicely done, not sure if it's still taking signups, but you could deploy a copy
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[fluffy] If I decide to do a demo of it I’ll just send a mention to the page itself
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[fluffy] something like “Hello from Moz #fungineering” or something
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btrem What the what? I've been under the distinct impression that search engines don't index alt text. I still use alt text when appropriate for accessibility, but assumed it would not impact search results. A simple poke around the interwebs has disabused me of that notion. I wonder how I came to that oh-so-wrong conclusion.  :/
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[KevinMarks] To go back a long way, Mark Pilgrim's Dive Into Accessibility said something like "some of the many important blind users you have are search engine spiders"
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[KevinMarks] Search engines now will ocr your images and feed them to neural networks, but they will also read your alt text and likely train the neural networks with it
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[tantek] Curiously, what was the first search engine to index alt text?
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[tantek] I mean, I don't think it was ALTa Vista
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btrem Yeah, I read some of Mark Pilgrim's articles. I was one of the people saying that Google was one of the most important visitors you'd have. And to view your page in Lynx to get some idea of how a page would work. But somehow, I got the idea that Google ignored alt text. I have no idea how that got into my head.
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btrem If I had to guess, I might say that I conflated keyword stuffing/spamming in meta tags -- which are ignored by search engines -- with keyword stuffing in alt attributes.
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[tantek] yeah anyone keyword stuff into alt attributes would likely get (rightly) criticized pretty quickly when folks started to hear the stuffing in screenreaders
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btrem That would be brutal.
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[KevinMarks] The current annoyance is screen readers announcing each letter-like character instead of using the text equivalent
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