#dev 2021-05-19

2021-05-19 UTC
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[KevinMarks] So, chatting to httparchive, they count domains. So blogger or tumblr count, but mastodon and twitter don't
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sknebel mastodon at least has instances
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[tantek] lots of good discussions today!
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[tantek] hey I only found one thing to disagree with lol
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[tantek] aaronpk: "consumers of this data isn't expected to be humans, it's expected to be software" <-- that's a common flaw IMO, because, until we literally have AI writing software APIs and both providers/clients, humans are absolutely the #1 (expensive) time-constrained consumers of ALL data, because they have to write the code, debug it, support it.
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[tantek] s/flaw/misconception
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[tantek] the key here is to optimize for *human* time spent on something and being able to make something reliable introspectable, and debuggable, without having to build a custom tool *every* *single* *time*
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[tantek] reliably*
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[tantek] alright, dev(ish) terminology debate question. we've used "cross-site", "federated", and "peer-to-peer" to describe comments made from one website to (and copied into) another. is any one of these more precisely accurate than the others? or are these terms generational (popular in different years)? or some other reason to use one vs others?
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j12t Not federated. That term usually implies a cabal of companies doing stuff as a group.
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[aciccarello] I think I prefer cross-site
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sknebel I prefer cross-site. federated is fine, but kind of suggests a more long-term connection. peer-to-peer more suggests client-to-client
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[tantek] isn't TOR peer-to-peer?
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[tantek] sorry, Torrent
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sknebel yes
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[manton] I often use the phrase “cross-site replies” when talking about what Webmention enables.
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[tantek] that sounds like a pretty strong consensus
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Ruxton federated is the correct terminology imo, cross-site implies a level of control at each site. When I cross-site post, i expect that I have control of each post. When posts are federated that control is in the hands of the people federating it. (eg. they can choose not to update, not to delete, etc.)
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[tantek] interesting distinction and indeed that is more accurate
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[tantek] yes, cross-site (posting) is a more accurate description for POSSEing and PESOSing, where you do have control of both ends
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[Murray] just throwing out there as someone who doesn't really know about any of the technical terminology in this area: I'd expect "cross-site" to be _within_ a domain based on the name alone (as in page-to-page communication) because it's singular and I cannot think of any non-tech terms that use "cross-x" that imply a multiplicity of "x" e.g. "cross-country" or "cross-company" (may just not know other terms though)
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[Murray] that said, the term "federated" is not one I've ever come across outside of economics (where I'd agree with j12t that it implies a _grouping_ or some kind of external-entity access) or _Star Trek_ IRL. I know it's what Mastodon etc. use but it's never made a lick of sense and it's one of the reasons why I just can't be bothered to look into that space 😄
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[Murray] At least peer-to-peer is a phrase I've come across, but if you didn't grow up in the days of Napster and torrents, I don't think I'd understand that any easier
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[Murray] I know the original question was based on _technical_ definitions, but for a feature that's so user-centered it feels like terminology should be user driven? Or maybe I'm missing the point 😅
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[Murray] (I also have no better solutions; I think of them as site-to-site in my head, but largely I just think of them as _comments_ so 🤷‍♂️ )
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[Murray] (I've also always felt like e-mail was the best analogy: I have an account, you have an account, in order for me to send you a message I write an email on my account and send it to you, you read it on your account)
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tomlarkworthy cross-site seems like a much more web specific description, and therefore is more precise than federation. Would get my vote
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tomlarkworthy cross-site already means across different domain (e.g. cross-site scripting)
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[manton] I also say “cross-posting” when talking about POSSE, so “cross-site” is consistent with that. I wonder if “federated” has been almost too co-opted by Mastodon, for better or worse.
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@marcus_lindblom Falling in love with Webmentions while working a new blog for https://nimbleinitiatives.com (twitter.com/_/status/1395018690375176201)
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@mantonsblog I stopped posting to Twitter a few months ago, not even automatically from my blog. Just so much nicer to focus on http://Micro.blog. But seems appropriate to post a link to my blog post today about Webmention and Twitter: https://www.manton.org/2021/05/19/webmention-and-twitter.html (twitter.com/_/status/1395021416588849153)
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[manton] That post is specifically about improving Micro.blog’s support for Bridgy.
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[tw2113_Slack_] [manton] i know i heard not super long back that you want more micro.blog themes. any chance we can get one that makes your page look like twitter? 😄
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[tw2113_Slack_] mostly teasing, not a legit desired request 😛
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[manton] Haha. That would actually be pretty fun.
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[tw2113_Slack_] it’d amuse me for sure
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[manton] I haven’t had much time to adapt themes to Micro.blog, so I really want to make it easier to take an off-the-shelf Hugo theme and drop it in. Right now it requires a few tweaks to work well with Micro.blog. Things like changing link tags and parameter names in some cases.
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[tw2113_Slack_] i’m right at ep89 of MicroMonday and it was ep88 where the topic came up with your QA episode
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[KevinMarks] It could look like classic twitter, like qvitter did
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[manton] [tw2113_Slack_] Oh yeah, I remember that conversation now. Since then we have had 2 new themes from [cdevroe] which has been great.
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[snarfed] manton++
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Loqi manton has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (24 in all channels)
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[snarfed] [manton] micro.blog + bridgy post looks great!
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[snarfed] one q, re “This is all a long way of saying: when you post a link to your blog post on Twitter, tweet replies will be collected and included under your blog post on the web.” …that is, once a given user signs up for Bridgy, right?
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[snarfed] might be worth clarifying that it’s not automatically on for all m.b users
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[snarfed] also do you have an example of a backfeed tweet? i’d love to see how it looks!
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@toddgrotenhuis ↩️ testing webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/1395080283792179200)
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[manton] [snarfed] Oh yeah, assuming Bridgy is enabled. I should have made that more clear.
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[manton] [snarfed] I tweeted a test reply so I could use it as an example, but Bridgy is not picking it up. Hmm. I wonder if anything sticks out as wrong about this? I tested yesterday and it worked, but I deleted the test posts. https://twitter.com/mantontest/status/1395033801533927428
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@mantontest @mantonsblog This is a test reply to see http://Brid.gy in action. (twitter.com/_/status/1395033801533927428)
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[manton] [snarfed] Here’s an example from someone else that has a tweet reply. The formatting is a little off but you can see it picked up the username and Twitter profile, and links back to the tweet via Bridgy. Scroll to the bottom: https://micro.maiquemadeira.com/2021/05/19/there-and-back.html
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[KevinMarks] do we have a follow webaction?
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[KevinMarks] google account is https://twitter.com/WebCreators
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[snarfed] [manton] thanks! rendering looks great! a couple minor thoughts, consider linking the avatar and handle (twitter.com/mrBatsu_) to their twitter profile? and also consider using the u-url mf2 property instead of webmention source, since u-url links straight to the tweet on twitter.com
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[snarfed] (the more bridgy is invisible, the better 😎)
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[snarfed] https://brid.gy/about#appspot
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[snarfed] and i’m not sure why https://twitter.com/mantontest/status/1395033801533927428 is missing, but i’ll take a look
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@mantontest @mantonsblog This is a test reply to see http://Brid.gy in action. (twitter.com/_/status/1395033801533927428)
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[KevinMarks] feed << notes on Google IO session on chrome adding feed following to the app http://www.kevinmarks.com/chromefollow.html
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Loqi ok, I added "notes on Google IO session on chrome adding feed following to the app http://www.kevinmarks.com/chromefollow.html" to the "See Also" section of /feed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=75783&oldid=75662
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[schmarty] KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (58 in all channels)
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barnabywalters huh, interesting
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barnabywalters google reader 2.0?
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[schmarty] wa-hey, yeah! "the browser is not fetching RSS feeds, that's done server side"
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[schmarty] lol all these great questions that they don't have answers to.
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[KevinMarks] so google have 3 separate feed fetching projects - podcasts, feedburner and this
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barnabywalters “next 20 years of RSS feeds” please, no
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[chee] > No RSS? No problem - we can build a feed from your content too
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barnabywalters yeah that part looked interesting
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barnabywalters wonder what they’re using, and how well it works
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[schmarty] these responses sure make it sound like this is a one-off experiment or at least a fresh team with a lot to learn 😬
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[KevinMarks] well, they said they want to hear from people and follow web standards, so lets be extra nice to them about h-feed and MicroSub
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[KevinMarks] they already use WebSub
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[chee] :)
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jacky they're probably using Granary to build those feeds
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barnabywalters if so, I hope they’re running their own instance of it
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barnabywalters otherwise [snarfed] might get some large server bills soon
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/lmorchard/status/1395061306068070403?s=20
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@lmorchard I really wish we'd done this in Firefox about 10 years ago, rather than removing the RSS button entirely. (The button was essentially unused, per telemetry metrics.) I've tinkered with building add-ons to do this off & on since then. https://twitter.com/__apf__/status/1395041238739423241 (twitter.com/_/status/1395061306068070403)
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sknebel yeah, that was sad. if I remember correctly even the ability for feed readers to add themselves to the RSS button was broken for a while before, which kinda made the "but nobody uses that" a bit moot
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jacky :(
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sknebel (+ of course removing the feed bookmarks while at the same time publicly arguing that to much reading of facebook feeds etc isnt good)
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[girrodocus] Re: previous discussion of Nginx: I found an online handbook that looks like a good starting point for my current (possibly abortive…) first taste of sysadmin. https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/the-nginx-handbook/
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mgdm [girrodocus]: I am brand new here so I don't know the background but I can drive nginx if you ever have questions
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[chee] [chrisaldrich] my original question was quite userish but i think the rest of it probably falls in here, haha
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[chee] the thing you've said about obsidian is interesting! i had been using trilium as a notetaking application, and drafting posts there before bringing them to wordpress
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[chee] but i'm now experimenting with an idea for a desktop notetaking app that uses a remote wordpress (or, possibly any micropub server with the right extensions) as the backend
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[Murray] the Google (Chrome) Reader thing looks cool, but man that mention of telemetry being the reason Firefox dropped the RSS button is sad 😞 I used it all the time; actually, the removal of it was one of the reasons I jumped over to Chrome when I did. But I also disable all telemetry and wonder how much the overlap of RSS users and privacy-focused people are. No idea if I'd have been able to disable that part or not, but yeah, still sad
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Saphire Psss
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Saphire Hm
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Saphire The slack might be better moved over..
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