#dev 2021-06-04

2021-06-04 UTC
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mikeputnam i wonder if https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5785 aka the /.well_known/ convention on the web server, would be suited for webmentions on static sites?
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[schmarty] from #indieweb mikeputnam: i'm curious what features of webmention might be helped by using a pattern like /.well_known/ ?
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[schmarty] what is well_known?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "well_known" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "well_known is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] (asking the wiki bot)
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[schmarty] what is well known?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "well known" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "well known is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] hrmm
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[schmarty] it looks like wiki search may be down
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[schmarty] my gosh: https://indieweb.org/.well-known
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[schmarty] so the uses listed there mostly seem to do with looking up some info about a domain or user on a domain. that "discovery" aspect of Webmention is already covered by the spec - any page that accepts webmentions will have an HTTP header or HTML <link> header indicating where to send webmentions.
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mikeputnam my incomplete thought was owing to me wanting to do my first webmention, on my static site. so my first action was "hmm... i'll need a directory to house these webmention files separate from my blog posts." then i wondered if a convention existed. then i recalled /.well_known/.
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[schmarty] ah, so you're looking for a place to store received webmention data for your posts?
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mikeputnam perhaps the best /.well-known/ could do would be to declare "HERE is the subdirectory of webmentions". but as webmentions are POSTed elsewhere explicitly, having a convention for where to keep them is probably irrelevant.
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[schmarty] yep, where webmentions are "kept" after receiving is kind of treated like an "implementation detail" since the needs of any given site might be very specific.
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mikeputnam i hadn't yet considered RECEIVING a mention. was just thinking about POSTing one and how to organize my files.
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[schmarty] when you say "POSTing" a webmention - do mean notifying another site that one of your posts linked to theirs?
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mikeputnam yes
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mikeputnam i was going to RSVP to a "Homebrew Website Club - The Americas" meetup by authoring a webmention then submitting(POST) the form back to the event.
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[schmarty] ah! i think i might understand. so the important thing is that you have a post on your site that links to the HWC Americas. the "webmention" is really the process of using that form to notify the event site that your post links to it.
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mikeputnam yes i think so
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[schmarty] if you want to keep posts like RSVPs separate from your blog posts, etc., that's pretty much up to you. webmention doesn't specify how you design the URLs for your site.
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mikeputnam ✓
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[tantek] Also, /.well-known/ is for *other folks* to lookup (discover) things on your site. There's zero reason to use (and plenty not to) /.well-known/ for your own site's storage or other relevant information for your implementation
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[tantek] Though due to the name and confusion (like your initial question mikeputnam) there's reasons to avoid any use of .well-known
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[tantek] That is, to use "follow your nose" methods of discovery instead
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[tantek] nothing in IndieWeb depends on, requires, or otherwise "takes advantage of" .well-known
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@lawik So indie web things. I really have a hankering to get fancy with open web tech. I already do plenty of RSS. What's next? WebSub? (prev. PubSubHubbub) Does anything use it? Notifications? (I know the nag sucks, it wouldn't be a default) Microformats2? Webmentions? Is this in use? (twitter.com/_/status/1400692456568594438)
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petermolnar how would one implement a "202 accepted" for micropub? All the clients I tried says it failed, but because it's a static site, I'd only want to queue them.
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sknebel that seems wrong. are you returning a post URL? (which I realize can be tricky if you are not creating it at that moment, but is required per spec - returning a placeholder URL instead could work maybe)
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petermolnar let's see that
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barnaby From #indieweb:
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capjamesg Hello!
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capjamesg I think you can give better context by writing about your blog / what you do versus just open sourcing.
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barnaby example of my former point: the micropub adapter I’m working on is perhaps the first piece of software I’ve ever written which had 100% test coverage from day 1
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capjamesg I can explain microformats on my blog but someone seeing the raw Jekyll template for the first time would probably go: what is this? how does it work?
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barnaby I doubt my personal site software will ever reach that
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capjamesg Considering blogs are supposed to be fun things to work on, maybe open-sourcing introduces a certain expectation of professionalism in code (i.e. test coverage, readme, whatever).
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capjamesg Just thinking aloud.
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sknebel I personally disagree with that, as long you are clear about it
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capjamesg Hm. You're probably right. Yeah.
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sknebel I generally dislike arguments that opening code comes automatically with responsibility to maintain it to certain standards you haven't promised
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sknebel because a lot of maintainer burnout etc comes from expectations like that
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barnaby for me, that threshold comes from when I publish something to a package manager
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sknebel that sounds like a good threshold, yes
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capjamesg Yeah. That sounds like a good idea to have in one's mind.
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barnaby I have plenty of code on my gh which is badly written but did the job, and I published it in case it might do the job for someone else
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capjamesg That's sort of why I publish scripts as well.
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sknebel right, and such code can be plenty useful
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capjamesg ANd for future reference.
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barnaby but I have higher standards for stuff which gets published to package directories
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sknebel there was a recent blogpost about treating open code like a box with usb drives on your front door and a "FREE" sign
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barnaby heh
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capjamesg Love it.
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sknebel let me see if I find that again
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sknebel https://snarky.ca/the-social-contract-of-open-source/
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capjamesg I like to publish code from / related to my personal site if I think it's going to be useful to someone else, or if I might need it in the future.
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barnaby ooh always nice to see people talking about the categorical imperative
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sknebel I feel like some of this was also touched on in [jackjamieson]s thesis https://dissertation.jackjamieson.net/ regarding motivations what to work on etc
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Loqi [Jack Jamieson] Independent Together: Building and Maintaining Values in a Distributed Web Infrastructure
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barnaby woah someone wrote a dissertation about indieweb?!
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capjamesg Wow!
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sknebel (e.g. in some of the quotes, seems like chapter 4 has the most relevant bits)
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capjamesg Interesting.
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capjamesg Separate point but still interesting: “Having a blog can get you through the tough times, the lonely times and the confusing times.”
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barnaby that dissertation is pretty interesting
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barnaby pity that most of the links are broken
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[KevinMarks] Hugo << a million page static site made with Hugo https://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/digital/how-we-brought-the-online-collections-into-the-modern-age-using-web-technology-of-the-past
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Loqi ok, I added "a million page static site made with Hugo https://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/digital/how-we-brought-the-online-collections-into-the-modern-age-using-web-technology-of-the-past" to the "See Also" section of /Hugo https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=76005&oldid=74682
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petermolnar there's also https://dr.amy.gy/ which is also indieweb-related to a certain level
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capjamesg An hour to generate one million pages? Amazing.
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sknebel !calc 1 hour / 1e7 pages in ms/page
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Loqi ∞^~
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sknebel LOL
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capjamesg Are you okay Loqi?
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capjamesg :D
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sknebel !calc 1e7 / 3600
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Loqi 2777.7777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777...
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barnaby woah that’s a lotta sevens
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sknebel (funnily enough wolfram alpha on the web manages to answer the first query, the api doesn't...)
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[KevinMarks] He was doing it in 10,000 page chunks so you could likely paralellise it more for more speed
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capjamesg This might be a basic HTML question but are <button> tags only for forms or can one use them outside of the form context?
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capjamesg I only ask because Lynx (text-based browser) points out that a button on my site does not have a form action. This got me thinking about whether buttons with onclick events are semantically correct.
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[Murray] yep, they're fine, but to be on the safe side you should set `role='button'`
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[Murray] otherwise some browsers will _assume_ it's a submit button and try to find a form
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capjamesg Excellent!
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capjamesg Super helpful.
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[Murray] oh woops I mean `type='button'`
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[Murray] not role
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[Murray] been working on way too many ARIA things lately 😅
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barnaby and if you want an official confirmation, here’s the relevant WHATWG HTML spec page https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-elements.html
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[Murray] and yeah, in terms of semantics `<button>` is one of the only things that _should_ have `onclick` events 🙂 (though there is a lot of grey area etc. etc., but rule of thumb 😄)
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barnaby <button> can be used “Where phrasing content is expected.”, and does nothing outside a form
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capjamesg Fascinating. I'll look at the spec for more info, too.
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capjamesg Here's the button, for context:
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capjamesg https://jamesg.blog/interviews/
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capjamesg (not accessible in text-based browsers, evidently!)
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capjamesg I should remove "Click here" actually.
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Loqi yea
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[Murray] good Loqi 😄
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barnaby capjamesg: my rule-of-thumb for elements like that is “if an element *only* works with js is enabled, it should be added to the document with js, or at minimum, hidden by default and shown from js”
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[Murray] ^ this
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[Murray] also, that's an interesting use-case, because before you press the button it's definitely a button, but the action it takes is technically a link 😄 I'd stick with `<button>` here personally, but there was a _whole thing_ on Twitter about a week ago around this 😅
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[Murray] looks good though, and cool idea :thumbsup:
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barnaby I’d say <button> is suitable here, as it’s not linking to a specific URL
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[Murray] yeah, I'd agree
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barnaby and a form with method=get, submitted via a button, is also very similar to an <a>
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capjamesg barnaby: Can you clarity?
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capjamesg Do you mean that I should insert the button with JS on page load?
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barnaby what specifically?
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capjamesg *clarify
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capjamesg "*only* works with js is enabled, it should be added to the document with js, or at minimum, hidden by default and shown from js”
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barnaby ah right: yes, ideally, or if it’s too awkward, then hide the button with display: none and then show it via js at page load
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capjamesg Right? I assume that's so the button is accessible to people who are not using JS?
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barnaby hmm actually the hidden attribute would probably be more suitable than display: none
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barnaby capjamesg: does the button do anything without js?
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capjamesg No.
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barnaby then there’s not much point in having it accessible to people with js enabled
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barnaby *disabled, sorry
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capjamesg Yep. So the best course of action is inject with JS on page load?
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barnaby ideally, yep
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capjamesg Great!
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barnaby then lynx won’t be able to complain about it any more ;)
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capjamesg Hehe :)
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[tantek] The point of button being inside a form is so that it can "work" (perform whatever action is intended by clicking it), WITHOUT JS
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[tantek] i.e. without any onclick or any other JS, clicking the button is handled by a form submission to the site which then produces the page with changes expected when the button is pressed
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[tantek] What's the use case for using a button outside of a form?
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[Murray] Well, for example, when the button requires JS
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[Murray] and semantically isn't part of a form
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[Murray] i.e. it's just a trigger for a JS function
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[tantek] that's not a use case, that's implementation
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[tantek] use case = what visible action is it performing on behalf of the user
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[Murray] ah, well one I've just been working on is a tab interface; so it loads an entirely different section of content
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[Murray] the example capjamesg had was to load a random page
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[tantek] so for both of those, the button would submit the form to the server which would then render the different tab / section of content, or return a random page
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[Murray] sure, if you're using serverside rendering and languages. But if you're not, then that won't do anything
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[tantek] the expectation is that a well built site has that as a default, and then any JS version on the client is an enhancement for speed / responsiveness
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[tantek] what is progressive enhancement
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Loqi progressive enhancement is the web development practice of building web pages, sites, apps so they are at least readable, and preferably allow for most if not all interactions, from any kind of browser, and optionally take advantage of additional capabilities (like various CSS & JS features) when available https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement
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[Murray] _eeeh_ I mean I'd love that to be true, don't get me wrong, but, well, React...
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barnaby well capjamesg linked to his site above, and it seems to be a static site, so client-side code is the only way of implementing a “random page” function
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[Murray] and I'd say the method barnaby detailed is progressive enhancement
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[tantek] yes, there are a lot of badly built React sites, though my understanding is that even with React there's ways to do serverside rendering as it were
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[Murray] and yeah, Jamstack/static sites
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barnaby yeah, if people want to pick a random article with js disabled, they can wave their mouse around and click wildly
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[tantek] lol
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barnaby it’s a fun luxury feature, not something which is integral to the site’s experience
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[Murray] 😂
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[Murray] exactly, if it was site critical it would be a different story, but it isn't
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[tantek] yes the combination of a static site and dynamic features is an interesting challenge
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sknebel hm, random site function on a static site... page with an image map where every pixel links a different post? :P
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[tantek] ^
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aaronpk haha that's great
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barnaby oh wow, a legitimate use for image maps
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[tantek] regenerate the image map on every site rebuild
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[tantek] "slow random" 🙂
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[Murray] Only if those dynamic features are critical. I'm working on a personal music collection microsite at the moment, and the main page has a sort function. I'm building in NextJS, so React. If you have JS enabled, the sort function works; if you don't, the page just falls back to being sorted in a specific way and doesn't render the sort toggle
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[tantek] that seems like a reasonable form of enhancement
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[Murray] As a point of interest, I've seen some people manage random page links on 11ty
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[Murray] so there must be a way to do it 😄
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[Murray] heh, in fact I bookmarked an article on just that: https://heydonworks.com/article/the-random-link/
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[Murray] (thought it rang a bell)
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barnaby “Please disable JavaScript to view this site.” !!!
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barnaby that’s a new one
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[Murray] oh yeah, I have it autodisabled for Heydon's site, forget about that 😄
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barnaby I’m not actually sure how to disabled it in FF
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[Murray] I have a plugin for testing purposes, so that's how i do it
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barnaby safari has a convenient menu item for it
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barnaby ah it’s under Debugger for some reason
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[Murray] if it's useful: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/disable-javascript/
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[Murray] Adds to right-click and menu bar
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barnaby ooh thanks
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barnaby given how difficult it is (enabling develop menu in safari, digging through the debugger in ff), I find the “Please disable JavaScript to view this site.”, with no hints as to how to do that or what the point is, a pretty bizarre barrier to entry
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aaronpk it is art
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[Murray] eh, the point is to be a bit controversial to try and get people to stop making things JS only; a shoe on the other foot type thing
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aaronpk or what [Murray] said
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[Murray] making it hard is therefore slightly intended
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barnaby seems kinda like the pendulum effect, swinging from js-only sites to no-js sites
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dianoetic Holy scrollback batman
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@fluffy ↩️ WebSub/PuSH is supported by a number of feed readers; I did a brief survey of support about two years ago (which could probably stand to be updated): https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/2655-WebSub-support-update mf2 and webmention are very heavily used by #indieweb folks. (twitter.com/_/status/1400866216726650881)
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GWG I'm wondering. I haven't tested this in a while. If I reply to https://micro.blog/odd/11536044 using the WordPress comment system, can micro.blog pick it up? We determined in the past that some webmention endpoints can do a fragment source
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Loqi [odd] @dshanske I read the Wikipedia article about him just now. So many shenanigans!
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capjamesg Just caught up on this chat.
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capjamesg Have been away out on a walk.
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capjamesg tantek what course of action would you recommend?
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capjamesg The button is not critical. It appears only as a "fun" feature.
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capjamesg The entire site is HTML, CSS, and sprinkles of JS for features like a coffee ratio calculator and a quiz.
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capjamesg The site is entirely readable without JS, designed that way in fact.
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capjamesg You could disable CSS and the site would probably be fine, too :D
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GWG Hey, that worked with micro.blog
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GWG Good to know
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GWG https://micro.blog/odd/11536044
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GWG I should document that somewhere
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Loqi [odd] @dshanske I read the Wikipedia article about him just now. So many shenanigans!
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GWG Do we have anywhere on the wiki where we document which webmention endpoints support query strings and fragments well?
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capjamesg !tell tantek progressive enhancement is interesting. The feature doesn't quite fall under that category because, ultimately, the button appears irrespective of whether you have JS enabled.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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capjamesg I've now got a whole line of questioning about buttons and revealing text. But that's for another day.
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[Murray] I hear revealing text; I think <details> (very dependent on use case 😄) https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/details
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capjamesg https://jamesg.blog/2021/05/24/edinburgh-cafe-quiz-3
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capjamesg This page relies on JS for buttons.
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capjamesg You can only find the answer to a question if you have JS enabled.
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capjamesg Which I didn't think about when implementing but now seems like an important consideration.
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Loqi [James] Game: Guess the Edinburgh Cafe (Part 3)
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[Murray] yep, that looks like a good use case for the <details> element
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capjamesg Great. I'm just reading through the docs to make sure it was semantically correct.
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capjamesg Everyone has been so helpful. Thanks!
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[Murray] the _literal_ semantics may not be perfect, but in terms of how people would expect to interact it feels like a good fit
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capjamesg ++Murray
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capjamesg Murray++
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Loqi Murray has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[Murray] (was intrigued to see if that would work 😄)
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[Murray] and thanks, happy to help
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capjamesg To be honest, I'll probably write a post about this once I've implemented the change.
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capjamesg And I wouldn't have even given this any thought today if it was not for Lynx, the text-based browser.
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[Murray] :thumbsup:
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[Murray] unrelated, but this looks interesting: https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1400863060617744387?s=20
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@jensimmons You know how each browser used to have totally different technologies for making add-ons or extensions. (They weren’t even called the same thing.) And how more recently, several browsers totally changed their extensions to use a similar set of APIs as the others? Yeah. That. (twitter.com/_/status/1400863060617744387)
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[Murray] uh, second tweet in that thread is probably the meaty one: https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1400863060617744387?s=20
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@jensimmons You know how each browser used to have totally different technologies for making add-ons or extensions. (They weren’t even called the same thing.) And how more recently, several browsers totally changed their extensions to use a similar set of APIs as the others? Yeah. That. (twitter.com/_/status/1400863060617744387)
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[Murray] wait, dammit: https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1400863061452414985?s=20
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@jensimmons Now it’s official. There’s now a WebExtensions Community Group, initiated by Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla, for aligning on a common vision for browser extensions and to work towards future standardization. https://www.w3.org/community/webextensions/2021/06/04/forming-the-wecg/ Web standards. For extensions. (twitter.com/_/status/1400863061452414985)
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capjamesg Oh, this is interesting.
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capjamesg Super interesting.
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barnaby nice! I remember having to use a weird framework to build cross-browser extensions
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Zegnat I feel like there was a group for that and Microsoft still had someone in there...
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Zegnat what is webextensions?
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Loqi WebExtensions are a cross-browser way to develop browser add-ons https://indieweb.org/WebExtensions
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Zegnat Aah, it was the browser extension community group! https://www.w3.org/community/browserext/
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Zegnat Guess we get to update the wiki page with the new working group
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Zegnat WebExtensions << [https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1400863061452414985?s=20 New WebExtensions Community Group] has been formed 2021-06-04
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@jensimmons Now it’s official. There’s now a WebExtensions Community Group, initiated by Apple, Google, Microsoft and Mozilla, for aligning on a common vision for browser extensions and to work towards future standardization. https://www.w3.org/community/webextensions/2021/06/04/forming-the-wecg/ Web standards. For extensions. (twitter.com/_/status/1400863061452414985)
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1400863061452414985?s=20 New WebExtensions Community Group] has been formed 2021-06-04" to the "See Also" section of /WebExtensions https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=76008&oldid=74272
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[jacky] added some thoughts to the Webmention ecosystem repo https://github.com/indieweb/webmention-ecosystem/issues/2
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Loqi [jalcine] #2 Defining the Retrieval Source for Webmentions
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barnaby well, now I know way more about letsencrypt and ACME than I ever wanted to
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barnaby I wrote a script which will automatically authorize all the domains on my shared hosting, then generate a single cert which covers them all, renewing it automatically if it’ll expire in less than two weeks
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barnaby now I just need to make it send the key and cert to me in an encrypted email, as I need to update them manually
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barnaby we’ll see how long I end up doing this before deciding to pay the 14€ per subdomain one-time SSL set-up fee
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barnaby if it was 5€ I’d just do it, but I plan on having many subdomains, and 14€ each time stacks up very quickly
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[jacky] easily
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[KevinMarks] I still use https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/sorttable/ fro making tables sortable
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sknebel ugh, SSL setup fees is ... not going with the times
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barnaby yeah. they give you one free cert, but it only covers a single subdomain, not even a wildcard domain
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sknebel that your old hosting provider?
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barnaby nope, the old one was a VPS which I managed myself with certbot
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@Lucid00 ↩️ And after you've paid it pops up with a Credential Management dialog to authenticate you without resorting to cookies (preferably powered by something like IndieAuth, but OpenID Connect and the many OAuth providers could work), so your payment will be associated with this account (twitter.com/_/status/1400964124406956036)