#dev 2022-02-13

2022-02-13 UTC
sayanarijit[d], jacky and prologic joined the channel
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prologic Umm hi again :)
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prologic It looks like a different user signed in. The user https://yarn.mills.io/user/james/twtxt.txt signed in, but we were expecting https://yarn.mills.io/
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prologic What the hell?
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prologic I'm actually following he spec here
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prologic Where it states:
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aaronpk what are you signing in to? it may not have been updated yet
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prologic The resulting profile URL MAY be different from what the user initially entered, but MUST be on the same domain. This gives the authorization endpoint an opportunity to canonicalize the user's URL, such as correcting http to https, or adding a path if required. See Redirect Examples for an example of how a service can allow a user to enter a URL on a domain different from their resulting me profile URL.
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prologic What gives? aaronpk :)
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prologic Ahh fixed! Was my fault
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prologic https://files.mills.io/download/Screen%20Shot%202022-02-13%20at%2010.36.16.png
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prologic I was incorrectly returning a bad Profile URL
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aaronpk oh, that error might have been misleading. the URL ending in twtxt.txt won't work because that's not HTML and doesn't advertise the authorization_endpoint
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prologic Yeah
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prologic That part I guessed by re-reading my code for returning the Profile URL
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prologic And realized I was returning the wrong URL :)
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aaronpk i should make that error message better tho
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prologic It wnated the one with mf2 all over the page :)
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prologic Not a twtxt feed :D
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prologic yeah probably some error like that it can't parse any valid mf2
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prologic which would make more sense IHMO
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prologic Now I only hope to god that yhe mf2 on our User profile views are actually valid :)
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aaronpk https://monocle.p3k.io/preview?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyarn.mills.io%2Fuser%2Fjames%2F
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aaronpk not bad, looks like maybe the p-summary is a bit too big
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jacky https://indigenous.marksuth.dev/ looks real nice
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aaronpk alright, the error messages should be better now
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prologic p-summary is too big?
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prologic Hmmm
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aaronpk split into two cases, one specifically that would catch your case where there was no authorizaiton endpoint found, which is different from when the authorizaiton endpoints don't match
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prologic I think that's subjective no :)
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aaronpk sure it's subjective but look at the monocle preview and tell me if you would be happy to see that in your reader
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prologic Yeah we are happy :)
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prologic But OTOH you are also right
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prologic We plan to do some UX here at a CSS level
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prologic But we can't really control how Pod owner/operators configure their instances
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prologic So you might get Twts of length 276, some at 576, etc :)
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prologic You should see some multi-paragraph ones in the wild! oh boi 😅
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prologic Anyway I have an interesting/dumb question...
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prologic Now that Yarn.social pods will be valid IndieAuth providers (as soon as the PR is merged)
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prologic Where can this be used?
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prologic How spproted is IndieWuth in the wild?
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Loqi it is probable
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prologic I understand (maybe wrongly) that IndieAuth is a subset of OAuth2?
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prologic Does this mean we can login to things that support OAuth2?
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aaronpk Like I mentioned before, most of the use of it will be for micropub clients to post content
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GWG prologic: It is a layer on top of OAuth2
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aaronpk it's an extension of OAuth, not a subset
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prologic Ahh I see
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prologic aaronpk re micropub use, I understand
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prologic However, where else can IndieAuth work? Or is known to work?
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aaronpk Owncast very soon! That will be a cool one that doesn't involve micropub
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aaronpk there are other random services in the indieweb community that also support it, like indiewebring or Telegraph or Webmention apps
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GWG I use it for WordPress.
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aaronpk Oh right you can log in to other WordPress sites with it right?
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GWG aaronpk: Yes, we implemented web sign in... but I haven't fiddled with that code in a bit... probably needs tweaking
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prologic Right cool
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prologic But pretty much nothing else supports this eh?
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prologic Hmm
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prologic Like signing into Github.com gmail.com etc
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aaronpk Oh they will never
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prologic Shame 😢
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prologic I wonder if we can build a IndieWeb -> anything else proxy?
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aaronpk those are big identity providers themselves and will never consume external IdPs
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prologic becuase they're totalitarian assholes? :D
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prologic Right 😅
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aaronpk well except google for their enterprise customers
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aaronpk oh GitHub does that too I think for their on prem version
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prologic What support IndieAuth?
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prologic Does anyone know if Gitea supports IndieAuth?
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aaronpk they should! That would be a good one. Is there a feature request open yet?
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GWG prologic: I think it is more business than totalitarianism
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prologic I dunno
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prologic But if there isn't one I'll file one :)
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aaronpk also the flip side of this is the more providers there are the more incentive consumers have to support it too
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prologic I love Gitea and run it myself
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prologic GWG isn't that the same thing? :D
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prologic "profit for your investors at all costs" == "you have to be a totalitarian asshole" :D
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prologic fuck the users and their choices and privacy/security :D
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aaronpk I also use Gitea! I wonder if I've filed a request already
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prologic sorry I'll shutup now :)
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prologic </politcalRant>
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GWG prologic: I'm critical of these companies for walled gardens, but in this case, only a small percentage of consumers are looking for control of their identity servers...so we'd have to show them people want it
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prologic aaronpk Well you'll soon have 17 IDP(s) that support IndieAuth
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prologic I also plan to add the consumer side too
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aaronpk awesome
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prologic As well as to services like https://feeds.twtxt.net/
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GWG Either way, I believe in all of this
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prologic Me too :)
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prologic I believe in this so much I'm building a company and suite of products aorund this
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prologic But first decentralised / open source social media :D
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prologic That isn't Mastodon :D
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GWG prologic: Good luck...hard task
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prologic aaronpk If you use Twtxt at all follow the https://twtxt.net/user/news/twtxt.txt feed and watch out for the next release (0.14) where IndieAuth support will land (plus a whole heap of other things)
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GWG I just write plugins for an existing open source project and that's hard.
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prologic GWG Indeed, but nothing easy isn't worth doing
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aaronpk is there an html version of that feed? :-)
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prologic or did I say that right? Hmm 🤔
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prologic aaronpk of course there is :)
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prologic trip twtxt.txt off the end :)
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prologic You know we support h-entry :P
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GWG prologic++
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Loqi prologic has 2 karma over the last year
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prologic You already say it
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aaronpk excellent I will do that then
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prologic saw*
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aaronpk oh right haha
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prologic :D
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prologic Jut be aware, by design Yarn.social pods don't persist Twts forever, they are eventually archived
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prologic So as an anonymous user things may seem like they disappear, because they are :)
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prologic aaronpk you're going to have to help me file this issue
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prologic Feature Description ... I'm not the SME on this
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prologic You are :)
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prologic Let's collaborate on some text put htere
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prologic They also wnt
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prologic Screenshots
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prologic If you can, provide screenshots of an implementation on another site e.g. GitHub
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aaronpk Aha I did mention this before https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/04/12/gitea-indieauth
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aaronpk my mistake was adding that into the existing OAuth thread instead of as its own issue
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] It would be fantastic if Gitea were its own OAuth2 provider! In fact, IndieAuth is the perfect candidate for how to implement this. IndieAuth is an OAuth 2.0 extension, which avoids the centralized problems with existing OAuth solutions by using DNS...
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prologic Right
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prologic Do you wanna file the issue then?
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prologic I'll just come in and chime in with my support or it
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prologic That might work better if you writ eit up
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prologic You also are aware of the eecosystem more than I
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prologic I'm just brining a network of IDP(s) :D
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prologic brining*
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aaronpk Sure I can do that. I should also update my instance first and check out the OAuth support
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prologic fuck I can't type ;/
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prologic *nods*
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prologic I actually use the OAuth support already
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prologic to allow users to sign-in to my git.mills.io using Github
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prologic But man I'd love it if it also had IndieAuth support :)
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aaronpk That's the other direction
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prologic Yes yes I know :)
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aaronpk the new thing they added was making gitea a provider
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prologic Oh right
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prologic Maybe they should make it a valid IndieAuth provider too?
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prologic I mean the code is not hard to write
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prologic It's literally one module I had to write and 3 routes
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prologic I actually borrowed the same JWT signed tokens code I already use for MagicLink Auth (Email)
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aaronpk yea shouldn't be hard if they are already an OAuth provider
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prologic *nods*
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aaronpk Well congrats on getting that working. I wish I had a better logo for IndieAuth so i could send you stickers
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prologic https://git.mills.io/yarnsocial/yarn/issues/801#issuecomment-8799
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prologic I know some folks that could probably help design a logo :)
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GWG logos++
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Loqi logos has 1 karma over the last year
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jacky agh hitting a wall b/c my framework of choice doesn't support multipart uploads
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jacky and _I'm_ going to have to implement it D:
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jacky all b/c I don't have a media endpoint (thinking)
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prologic Umm what?!
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prologic This is why I don't use "frameworks" 😂
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jacky framework is the wrong word tbh
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jacky it's like a thin toolkit over parsing HTTP requests
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jacky https://trillium.rs/
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aaronpk oh gosh yeah, the arrogance of some developers of just not including basic http stuff
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prologic Oh I see
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prologic Rust eh :)
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aaronpk they assume you'll only ever want json
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prologic Good luck :D
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prologic There's a saying right....
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prologic Never make assumptions :)
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jacky it has support for websockets and SSE tho lol
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prologic Geez
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jacky tbh thankfully there's a library I can use to 'give it' support
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prologic what a choice!
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aaronpk so futuristic
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prologic on basic multi-part support but it supports Websockets and SSE 🤦‍♂️
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prologic Classic!
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aaronpk alright, i just finished making hot sauce, so now it's time for some indieauth work
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prologic There has to be a way to classify these devs that do this kind of "cool" shit but only in broken and ueseless ways :)
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jacky it's not broken
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prologic aaronpk ++
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Loqi aaronpk has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (131 in all channels)
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prologic jacky sorry broken was the wrong word :)
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prologic I meant more generally
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jacky I do see it hinted as something to add in https://github.com/trillium-rs/trillium/discussions/41
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jacky lots of things tbh
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prologic It's like when I need to solve a problem, I look for an existing solution
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jacky it's more of a composable system - you add what you need - nothing more
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prologic Only to find it requires a Postgres db
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prologic :/
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aaronpk i think first up is i'm going to see if there are any easy issues i can close and do a spec update
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jacky ooh nice
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aaronpk because i'm pretty sure we've resolved some discussions since the last update nov 2020
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prologic aaronpk Do you mind reviewing my implemtnation at all?
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aaronpk i would like to, ideally by also writing test cases for it on indieauth.rocks
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jacky ah this slightly reminds me to ask you about https://indieauth.rocks
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jacky ha beat me to it
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prologic aaronpk i'd appreciate it a lot actually
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prologic Also is now a good time to jump into a quick video call and say hi?
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prologic I might be going out in a couple of hours (Family drive/etc)
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jacky prologic: there's an upcoming HWC (homebrew website club) meetup next week!
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jacky https://events.indieweb.org/2022/02/homebrew-website-club-pacific-RSTtUPDxup3J
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GWG aaronpk: Re the spec update...tell me if you need any changes to the remaining PRs
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jacky people here tend to try to align sync calls like that to those dates (out of respect of each other's time)
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prologic jacky would I even be welcome or would it be relevant to me :)
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prologic I'm not really building home-brew websties but a social media paltform :)
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jacky that works too
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jacky what is hWC
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club is a growing world-wide network of meetups for everyone who wants to take back their web experience from social media silos, and own their online identities & content, or just want support with blogging! https://indieweb.org/hwc
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prologic jacky Ahh I see (re sync calls)
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prologic > who wants to take back their web experience from social media silos
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prologic I feel like this should be reworded and much more specific
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prologic :D
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prologic "social media sillos" is ambiguous to me :)
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jacky that's why everything has a link
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jacky to help with expanding
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GWG prologic: It is a social event...I think you'll be welcome
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prologic Added (HMC meeting next week) to my calendar
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prologic I'll join anyway and see what it's all about
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prologic GWG Tha ks!
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aaronpk i will make a note to join as well
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prologic I hope it uses a non-big-tech video conf tool like Peer Calls or Jitsu :)
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GWG I'm usually there...I take care of starting the zoom
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jacky oh no I think the matrix image hotlink is down on /silo lol
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prologic Zoom?! 🤦‍♂️ LOL
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aaronpk it's okay, you'll survive
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jacky oh no it's up looks like I got a mixed content warning
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prologic Maybe I'll use this as an opportunity to encourage us all to use Peer calls :)
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aaronpk we use zoom because it works well and requires very little fiddling from participants
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GWG prologic: We tried jitsi.
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prologic Sure I get it :)
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prologic But still :)
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prologic I run a Peer calls instance at https://meet.mills.io
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prologic It works quite well really
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prologic Much better than jitsi IHMO
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aaronpk how does it handle 6+ participants? that's where we started having trouble with jitsi
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prologic It's p2p
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prologic So I'm not actualy sure
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prologic But I'd love to test that out :)
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prologic I regualrly have video calls with folks from all around the world with my instance
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aaronpk the pure p2p ones tend to fall over once you start having everyone send a copy of their video to everyone else
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jacky yeah that's been my experience with a lot of p2p video tech
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prologic Yeah you can also set it up with SFU too
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prologic But the downside of course is it all starts going through a central peer
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prologic So Pros/Cons
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prologic I prefer to keep my instance p2p as I don't have good bandwidth
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GWG prologic: That's where we ended up.
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prologic But I'm generally very interested in progressing peer Calls
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GWG prologic: We have a pop-up session on Personal Libraries next weekend and we could get a lot of people
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prologic I'm regualrly in touch with the author and am interested in improving the scalability of the software
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aaronpk i haven't tried that one before so i'd be interested in checking it out for sure
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prologic Well it's worth giving it a go just to see where it falls over
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prologic I've managed to have 5-6 participants so far no worries
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GWG Got a link to the software?
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prologic Sure
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prologic https://peercalls.com/
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prologic The author runs a public instance too
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jacky SFU == selective forwarding unit (that's a new term)
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jacky (to me)
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prologic Yeah part of the WebRTC specs
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prologic PeerCalls uses WebRTC tech and various related protocols
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GWG I love watching PR merges
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aaronpk oh i forgot about this major change. we're going to need something about practical migration strategies
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aaronpk clients discovering the indieauth server metadata URL instead of the two endpoints
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GWG aaronpk: How can I help?
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aaronpk i think i want to add a little yellow box in a few places to call out some of the previous behavior
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GWG aaronpk: We discussed that the old discovery method should remain as a fallback I believe
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GWG Until further notice
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aaronpk yeah that's how it's written now
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prologic aaronpk Don't forget I'd love for you to review my impl. https://git.mills.io/yarnsocial/yarn/pulls/799 -- it will probably get merged in the next day or two (or probably today if our resident UX dev finishes off some UX work on it)
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prologic :D
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prologic 🙏
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prologic I'm not obviously aware of "previous behaviours" as I haven't been following or actively involved in the direction of IndieWeb in general
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prologic I just use a few things here and there :)
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jacky ooh I need to look into the metadata URL logic
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GWG aaronpk: Probably right about it being a yellow box
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GWG jacky: It's easy enough...new link header that returns a list of endpoints
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prologic aaronpk btw, I think it might become really important to have an IndieAuth icon/logo of some kind as we will likely refactor the https://twtxt.net/login (Example) Login view to make it a bit more obvious you can Login with Email (MagicLink) or IndieAuth (using your own IDP or whatever) -- We also use Tabler Icons (https://tabler-icons.io/) so it might be worth thinking along those lines
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jacky I'm looking for the specific issue so I can associate it in my changelog
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jacky ah https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/43
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Loqi [aaronpk] #43 Consider using OAuth Server Metadata
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jacky which is techincally https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/pull/102
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Loqi [dshanske] #102 Introduce Server Metadata and Iss Parameter
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jacky wait where does ^ appear?
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jacky it's not on indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/
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GWG jacky: That's what aaronpk was building toward... refreshing the main site
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jacky OH
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jacky haha
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jacky my fault
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aaronpk exactly
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jacky in that case, I'll ignore it until it's live
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aaronpk yeah i would love a good icon
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jacky https://opensourcedesign.net/ o.O
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aaronpk oh hey owncast is on there https://opensourcedesign.net/jobs/jobs/2021-12-27-web-and-graphic-designer-for-a-growing-open-source-live-video-streaming-project
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prologic https://twtxt.net/twt/43sqgna
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aaronpk nice!
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aaronpk ok quick microformats thing, if you add e-content here and remove p-summary it will work better https://i.imgur.com/kSROgWH.png
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GWG aaronpk: I meant to ask you re expiring tokens...did I catch a discussion about that for OAuth2.1 recently,
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aaronpk there's been some discussion about refresh tokens if that 's what you mean
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GWG https://github.com/aaronpk/oauth-v2-1/issues/101 This one
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Loqi [aaronpk] #101 Drop requirement that bearer tokens must expire?
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aaronpk ah i forgot about that
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aaronpk i wrote that note to remind myself to discuss it at the next IETF meeting
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aaronpk which is next month now!
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prologic aaronpk Oh! I didn't know about e-conent
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prologic Should we use that instead?
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aaronpk yeah that would be much more typical
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prologic We _can_ also provide a summary version for p-summmary too
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prologic But that's not super clear to me how useful that would be on that same view
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aaronpk if you have a version that's shorter than the content it could be useful
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prologic We use a shorter version (with ellipsis) for meta tags and titles
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prologic Would we bother displaying it though?
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prologic or hide it via CSS
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aaronpk but i'm pretty sure most tools actually don't use the summary and just show the full content or do their own truncation
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prologic I see
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aaronpk tbh i would just skip the summary property entirely at the moment
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prologic So maybe it's better ot use e-content in the first place
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prologic I'll file an issue
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prologic Thanks for pointing this out!
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aaronpk it's more useful when it's for a post that doesn't have any content at all because it's something else entirely, like a recipe
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aaronpk that way if a consumer doesn't recognize the other properties it can fall back to displaying the summary
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aaronpk but content is a super normal property that basically anything that would understand summary will also understand content
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prologic Nice
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prologic TIL
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prologic aaronpk FYI IndieAuth support in `yarnd` is merged.
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prologic 🥳
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jacky GWG: you had an idea for an app
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jacky I def forgot what it was
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jacky if you have a permalink to when it was in chat, I might have some cycles to check it out
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GWG jacky: Bookmark one?
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jacky ah yeah
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aaronpk prologic++ awesome
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Loqi prologic has 3 karma over the last year
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jacky it was for Android, right?
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GWG jacky: Yes
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jacky been wating to kick the tires on Android Studio for a few days now
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jacky yeah it's coming back to me
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jacky a share target for URLs to send to one's site
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prologic https://twtxt.net/twt/vbzg7ja
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GWG https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2022-01-18#t1642528203688800
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GWG jacky: This
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jacky got it
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jacky adding it to my "App Requests" user page on the wiki lol
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GWG I have finished the bulk of my bookmark store
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jacky nice
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jacky I'm thinking about pulling bookmarks of things from my browser into my site
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jacky mainly like a folder called "things this week" and making it sync to my site with some magic lol
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GWG jacky: I have a few more tweaks, then I want to select multiple bookmarks in the store and generating a digest post from it
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aaronpk jacky: do you bookmark that much stuff?? wow
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GWG I thought about automatic, but starting with manually.
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jacky lol I use bookmarks to reduce the need to search for things on the Web itself
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GWG How many things do you bookmark per week?
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jacky I wanna say maybe ~40 a week but I end up removing things if I come across it too often and don't find them useful
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GWG I use Pinboard right now as a searchable archive of things I saved... that's what I'm replacing
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jacky it's probably like ~20 - 30 depending if i'm working on something that builds up a lot of context
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GWG jacky: Same here.
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jacky my partner writes novels so watching how she also uses bookmarks got me interested in this (her site's theme is done but needs some tweaks)
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jacky ah yeah that's what I'd want it for - like the random like on running SQLite in the browser
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jacky or something from inkandswitch
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GWG jacky: Did I show you this? https://wpdev.gwg.us/wp-json/blinks/v1/bookmarks
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GWG It's a bunch of random links I imported in to test on
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GWG It's designed to look like just another WordPress endpoint
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jacky oh interesting
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GWG I need to do some additional security, as there is no public frontend, but you can access everything without authentication so far.
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GWG It's easier to design that way before I turn it on
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GWG I've been doing it in between the restart of webmention PRs with pfefferle
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GWG So, I am excited
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jacky yeah I've seen some of those changes in #-wordpress; nice!
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GWG jacky: We talked about it a bunch at the start of the pandemic... but it stalled for a bit, glad it's back
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jacky yeah any progress is good progress imo
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jacky any progress that moves forward that is lol
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GWG jacky: More to do to even get to the minimum for the goals we set
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jacky I think biggest goal for me this quarter is to finish working on the IndieAuth app/service
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GWG jacky: I am pulling for you
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aaronpk omg searching for mismatched html tags 😭
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jacky yikes
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aaronpk gwg you really gotta fix your editor from adding tabs to this
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GWG aaronpk: It's a WordPress thing... sorry about that...I think I need to disable it just for things like this.
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aaronpk i should add an .editorconfig that way at least it will happen automatically sometimes
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GWG My editor is preset to WordPress tabs. pfefferle is always complaining about my indents
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GWG Complaining is a bit strong, but...
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jacky editorconfig++
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Loqi editorconfig has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG I write all my code in vim
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jacky same here
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jacky https://github.com/editorconfig/editorconfig-vim :)
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aaronpk 🤘
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GWG Time to update my vim configuration
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aaronpk editorconfig++
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Loqi editorconfig has 2 karma over the last year
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aaronpk makes it easy to switch conventions between projects without thinking about it
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jacky yeah the inventor of that needs a medal from the community imo lol
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GWG I'll try to learn it
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aaronpk there's nothing to learn, just install it
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aaronpk if a project has an editorconfig it will Just Work™
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jacky ^
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jacky one thing I'm a bit excited for re: rust-mf2 parser is the ability to take some HTML and show how it'd look when it's parsed
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jacky it's like a doctest kind of thing so if for some reason it changes, I could see where
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jacky like even the datetime parsing has it
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GWG aaronpk: I have to add one to all of my plugins then, I mean
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GWG I think pfefferle loads one, so I could use his
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GWG aaronpk++ for IndieAuth work tonight
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Loqi aaronpk has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (132 in all channels)
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Loqi GWG has 18 karma in this channel over the last year (71 in all channels)
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aaronpk GWG++ for making it easy for me by having these PRs ready
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GWG I had fun doing it
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GWG It's a challenge to get used to the writing of standards
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aaronpk ok GWG the last thing is adding a sample request for the userinfo, then i want to publish this
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GWG Okay. I'm 14 minutes from landing at JFK or I'd do it now.
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aaronpk and *then* i have a big blog post to write explaining all these changes 😂
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aaronpk oh ok i can do it then
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GWG Sorry... I decided to go home
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aaronpk alright here goes
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GWG Suspense
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aaronpk boom https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/ 💥
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jacky refreshes
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jacky woot!
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jacky aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (133 in all channels)
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Loqi 😃
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GWG I feel like a band should strike up
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aaronpk alright now everyone go go go!
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GWG aaronpk: I am...at 150mph
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GWG Full reverse....
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GWG Sorry... timing there...
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jacky oh yeah this metadata endpoint is going to be great
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GWG jacky: I concur
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aaronpk now i gotta get to work on updating my site!
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GWG aaronpk: The future is now
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jacky big same
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jacky might be something to note at next HWC!
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GWG I'm set.... just have to make tweaks
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GWG I added the metadata endpoint already
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jacky heh early adopter :)
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GWG jacky: I got excited after the pop-up
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GWG That's why I wrote the PRs.
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jacky this reminds me to go over some of the other PRs and see what kind of feedback I can give and as well as implementation stuff I can do
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jacky channels have really changed how I've viewed my site tbh
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GWG jacky: How so?
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jacky well I can organize content in a semantic way that 'transcends' post types (my site's a bit strict on post types since that's how it queries stuff from my mf2 server)
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jacky but now like I can make a channel about anything
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jacky like one solely for semantic things (like making a developer log that's not specific to a type or a tag)
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jacky or even making a space for "expiring" content (by making a feed that plucks items from a channel and only adds things over the last 24 hours, for example)
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jacky I might write (and demo) it more
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jacky in the coming days :)
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aaronpk alright, my metadata doc is up!
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aaronpk i should start making a list of what i'm doing for this blog post
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GWG aaronpk: I look forward to reading it and using it as a checklist
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aaronpk now `iss` is added, that was easy
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aaronpk this is kinda fun
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jacky heh that's how it starts
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jacky then you've realized OAuth 4
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GWG Let aaronpk finish 2.1 first
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KartikPrabhu, baracurda, daiyi[d], indieweb-irc-bri, wackycity[d], Nezteb[d], rattroupe[d], Jeremiah[d], shaunix[d], Myst[d], Asaf_Agranat[d], tracydurnell[d], hoenir, capjamesg[d], Murray[d], dovedozen[d], edburns[d], aspenmayer[d], balupton[d], barryf[d], sayanarijit[d], Christian_Olivie, jacky, hans63us[d], MarkJR84[d], corenominal[d] and petermolnar joined the channel; prologic left the channel
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petermolnar https://github.com/gildas-lormeau/SingleFile basically MHTML, but for all the browsers, which is nice.
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Loqi [gildas-lormeau] SingleFile: Web Extension for Firefox/Chrome/MS Edge and CLI tool to save a faithful copy of an entire web page in a single HTML file
antrdnv[d], marksuth[d], Seb[d], KartikPrabhu, tetov-irc and jeremycherfas joined the channel
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capjamesg[d] Well I have been playing around with Elasticsearch for the last few hours.
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capjamesg[d] In the ideal world, IndieWeb Search would collect a few hundred queries per day so I could judge relevance on them.
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capjamesg[d] What I want to be able to do is run tests on different algorithms to see which ones produce the most relevant results.
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capjamesg[d] To do so, however, I would need a team of human reviewers (not feasible!) or to collect user data (which, although feasible, would be subject to the issue of low search volume).
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capjamesg[d] Thus, I need to think of a better way to judge relevance on queries.
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jeremycherfas What would happen if you offered upvote/downvote options on search results? Could you make use of that?
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capjamesg[d] Yes I could actually. That's a good idea.
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capjamesg[d] Currently, evaluation is judged on 3 vertices: relevant, not relevant, somewhat relevant.
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capjamesg[d] Those correlate to an upvote, downvote, and no action.
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capjamesg[d] *options, not vertices
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[KevinMarks] You could look at which result people click on
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[jgmac1106] I would want to sort by post type that would be cool
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[jgmac1106] So... I am back at the most common place an IndieWeb... The drawing board.
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capjamesg[d] This search engine is turning out to be a very, very complicated project.
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[jgmac1106] Thinking I could finish learning to build a PHP LMS with current site, I liked Kirby and have a license, I am rebuilding my app in Django and Python, maybe I do an LMS
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capjamesg[d] [KevinMarks] I was thinking about that too.
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capjamesg[d] But before I do anything I need to figure out exactly how the Elasticsearch rank evaluation works.
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[jgmac1106] What are you indexing p-name and p-summary or all the plain text?
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[KevinMarks] Do you weight name and tag above content for containing a search term?
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capjamesg[d] Let me find that information.
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capjamesg[d] https://github.com/capjamesg/indieweb-search/blob/main/elasticsearch_server/constants.py#L21
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capjamesg[d] There are the weights I use ^
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[jgmac1106] Weighting a tag is smart.... It's like you built a blog search engine before Kevin
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capjamesg[d] [jgmac1106] I index both the HTML on a page and its plain text version.
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capjamesg[d] And the title, description, URL, published date, headings, and domain.
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capjamesg[d] (Plus a few other things that were experiments but aren't used)
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[jgmac1106] Can you add a post type weight? So I can say Kevin photos
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capjamesg[d] That's a cool idea.
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[jgmac1106] I use p-summary a lot, wonder if others do
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capjamesg[d] I think I'd change the query to say "AND post_type=like" rather than use a weight so that you only see likes, etc.
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[jgmac1106] Yes
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capjamesg[d] I'll include that in the next version 🙂
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[jgmac1106] My search engine idea was always opt-in. I add my website and can decide what post types get crawled
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capjamesg[d] [KevinMarks] Any feedback you can give about ranking would be so greatly appreciated! I'm happy to explain how ranking works right now.
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capjamesg[d] [jgmac1106] The engine does post type discovery on all pages (now).
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[jgmac1106] This is a cool project thx for doing it... Watch the AWS bill... A ton of stuff out there. Hopefully you throttle to just a few hundred a day
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capjamesg[d] That means that filtering by post types is easy and the logic for doing so is defined by the algorithm incubated here in the community. As for what is indexed, most things are (up to 15,000 URLs).
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[jgmac1106] capjamesg[d]++
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Loqi capjamesg[d] has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (74 in all channels)
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capjamesg[d] There are a lot of exclusions (i.e. non-200 URLs, non-HTML documents) but generally if you have a HTML file on your site that is not blocked by robots.txt or noindexed, it will be crawled.
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capjamesg[d] (Some pages will be excluded if they have a really low word count though, but that's not something I have added just yet).
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[jgmac1106] My search engine broken... My entire Known site broken, love a working search engine
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capjamesg[d] Regarding AWS bill, thanks to sknebel this project just got 50% cheaper and twice as powerful haha. I can run the full search engine on the same server as all of my web apps without any issues.
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[jgmac1106] Well I think I may look into making an IndieWeb version of Django.... Though I did like Kirby... And I am 30% there on my own PHP LMS.... (routing is hard I mess it up).
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[jgmac1106] I like micro.blog for quick and dirty but I want more control. I liked my static site plus Known..but my Known site is borked and gets worse with time
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jacky have you tried using one of the other projects on the Wiki?
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jacky [jgmac1106]: ^ vs rolling your own?
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jacky I did that for a while to get a sense of what I wanted/was looking for
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sknebel jacky: reading scrollback, curious why you went for trillium out of all the choices available (way to many IMHO, different topic :D)
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jacky ha totally
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jacky I started using warp but I didn't like how it handled intreractions as just 'functions' (and there was some other reason tbh, I wish I wrote it down)
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jacky I was playing around with trillium and I saw a friend + the author post about it
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jacky it gave me what I liked about Elixir's Phoenix/Plug but in Rust
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jeremycherfas !tell [jgmac1106] Getting OUT of WithKnown has me really worried now. For all the talk of take your data some place else, I can't get at my data in a form that would allow me to take it anywhere.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas I'd pay (a bit, in addition to Open Collective) to get something like that working again.
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jacky like exporting from WithKnown to another service? or just to disk?
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jeremycherfas Exporting from WithKnown in a form that another service could use.
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jeremycherfas XML? JSON? Something
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jacky gotcha
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jacky I'm curious b/c I don't want to wait too late to add export functionality to my site (jic)
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jacky but the data's all flat on disk
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jeremycherfas I mean, there's a button marked Export that says it will generate an RSS file, but no longer works.
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jacky oh that's not helpful at all :(
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jeremycherfas WithKnown stores all data as blobs in a database.
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sknebel wonder if the good old "crawl entire page and parse for mf2" would work and have all the data you want
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jeremycherfas Possibly. I've never really thought about that. I've no idea how many items I could get on the home page at once, or how it would step through older pages.
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jeremycherfas !mf2 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstream.jeremycherfas.net
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jeremycherfas It does not include webmentions received by the post -- not surprising -- but otherwise it is all there.
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sknebel !mf2 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2022/hear-me-o-tavolamed-as-a-foolish
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstream.jeremycherfas.net%2F2022%2Fhear-me-o-tavolamed-as-a-foolish
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] Hear me, O @tavolamed, As a foolish person, who knows not my ward, I await the set form of words with which Curio Maximus will proclaim the time for holding the #Fornacalia, so that I may celebrate on the last day to which it can be postponed.
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jeremycherfas Ha! I was just picking one to do myself.
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jeremycherfas !mf2 https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2022/be-nice-to-your-large-intestine-lest-it-turn-on
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstream.jeremycherfas.net%2F2022%2Fbe-nice-to-your-large-intestine-lest-it-turn-on
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] Hear me, O @tavolamed, As a foolish person, who knows not my ward, I await the set form of words with which Curio Maximus will proclaim the time for holding the #Fornacalia, so that I may celebrate on the last day to which it can be postponed.
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] Be nice to your large intestine, lest it turn on you. https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/file/1e2e0cc6e6f180cad31d4bc8612864d5/thumb.jpg
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sknebel comments make it, likes dont
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] Be nice to your large intestine, lest it turn on you. https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/file/1e2e0cc6e6f180cad31d4bc8612864d5/thumb.jpg
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sknebel so would need some munging, but quite a bit could be extracted
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jeremycherfas That's fair. So then I "just" need to step through every single post, maybe using h-feed to pull out the URLs to step through.
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sknebel yeah. or wget the entire site to a local copy and then run over all the HTML
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jeremycherfas Also interesting: mf2 does not extract anything from a photo-post.
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sknebel hm :/
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sknebel ok,so more customization needed
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sknebel https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/2022/be-nice-to-your-large-intestine-lest-it-turn-on thats not a photo post? because that has useful stuff
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Loqi [Jeremy Cherfas] Be nice to your large intestine, lest it turn on you. https://stream.jeremycherfas.net/file/1e2e0cc6e6f180cad31d4bc8612864d5/thumb.jpg
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jeremycherfas The WGET idea probably makes the most sense, if it ever came to that, because I would have a local copy and could contemplate [jgmac1106] approach of manual till it hurts.
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jeremycherfas It is treted as a photo post by WithKnown, and then "content" is entirely included in the title of the post.
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jeremycherfas Treated
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sknebel the parser output of that link at least has everything somehow
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jeremycherfas Raw output, yes. JSON no.
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jeremycherfas Interesting; WithKnown handles 1000 posts on the home page with relative ease. TIL.
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Zegnat Honestly, because you have the database, I woulcd run it straight on that and not try to go over HTTP at all
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jeremycherfas You've poked into the database zegnat and are wiser than me in these matters. I find it fiendishly difficult to see how things are being stored.
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Zegnat Yeah, I am *not* a fan of the WithKnown format. IIRC it stores all post types in the same table, and gets around storing different information for different post types by putting JSON blobs into a single column?
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Zegnat But for the default post types I do not think the JSON format was too hard. Though I would need to look again. It is probably possible to write a relatively simple script that walks through the posts table in the database and drop out a format that you want. If the internal JSON matches mf2 closely (which I think it might do?) almost no data transformation would be needed if that is the format you want.
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jeremycherfas Exactly. Extremely difficult for me to make sense of it.
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Zegnat There is also the discussion here that, even if you export it, what format will other systems accept as an import? I am not sure there are any standards out there.
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jeremycherfas The truth of the matter is that I have always considered my WithKnown stream as somewhat ephemeral. If it all vanished tomorrow I would be sad but it wouldn't be a tragedy.
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jeremycherfas If I did export, it might well be to flat files.
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jeremycherfas Possibly with yaml front matter.
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Zegnat Hmm. That might actually be the most portable format. As lots of SSG would accept it
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aaronpk this is why the HTML export option isn't a bad idea, because then at least you can still browse the site
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jeremycherfas Exactly.
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jeremycherfas Even Grav (haha)
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aaronpk time to continue hacking on my indieauth
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jeremycherfas Does --convert-links in WGET make the links relative or change the base URL to something local?
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Loqi Does has -1 karma over the last year
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sknebel lol
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jeremycherfas Thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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sknebel relative
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aaronpk if you do want to go down the wget route i would recommend using my spiderpig instead, it solves a few problems that wget has
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aaronpk what is spiderpig
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Loqi Spiderpig is a web crawler for archiving a website as static HTML files https://indieweb.org/Spiderpig
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jeremycherfas Thanks. Will look.
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[KevinMarks] you can always parse the mf2 back out of the html for known too
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sknebel thats what we've been discussing
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aaronpk tbh a lot of these changes are simplifying my code
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Zegnat aaronpk: on indieauth?
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aaronpk yea
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Zegnat That is good, it is supposed to be approachable after all, haha
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aaronpk having separate endpoints for the various things like revocation and userinfo cleans up a lot of weird conditionals
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Zegnat Ooh, nice, I need to get on those
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aaronpk so i'm basically moving that code out to a new function, and then calling that function from where the old code was for backwards compatibility
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aaronpk next up, get Quill to use the new metadata
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GWG aaronpk: Quill also isn't using the changes in the profile
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jacky https://crates.io/crates/microformats_parser
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jacky (I kinda wanna rename the crate to be `microformats`)
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jacky going to figure out how to trigger a rebuild of the Rust website whenever the crate is updated so it's the "latest"
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LaBcasse[m] Arf, sorry about the renaming. I will handle this for the next publication.
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jacky oh you're here :)
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jacky if it helps, we can chat here :)
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jacky thank you so much for getting that crate started!
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jacky LaBcasse[m]++
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Loqi LaBcasse[m] has 1 karma over the last year
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LaBcasse[m] You're welcome. You have greatly improved the project.
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jacky wow for about ~1 week I've been banging my head as to why my website works locally and not remotely
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jacky like I've even built it on the server and put it behind nginx
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jacky https://i.imgur.com/rNARoxS.png is the _ONLY_ thing I noticed to be different
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jacky and I _think_ it's the reason lol
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jacky (image shows HTTP method in different cases)
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sknebel uuhh, how did you manage to get that?!
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sknebel (headers being differently-cased is normal, methods very much not!)
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jacky I foolishly allowed it
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jacky I'm actually going to open a bug report on this lol
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sknebel link here, curious how that happened :D
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jacky lol hopefully it's worth it
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jacky https://git.jacky.wtf/indieweb/rust/src/branch/next/src/client.rs#L72
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jacky this method is the heart of sending requests in the `indieweb-rust` library (soon to be refactored so people can bring their own HTTP clients)
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jacky however https://docs.rs/ureq/latest/ureq/struct.Request.html#method.method says _nothing_ about it needing to be capitalized lol
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jacky it probably does but nginx does _not_ like that
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sknebel yeah, HTML is very explicit about that
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sknebel *HTTP
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jacky this is amazing haha
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sknebel oh fun
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sknebel HTTP actually does allow lower-case methods
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sknebel its just that the case matters
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sknebel and the standard ones are defined as all-uppercase
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jacky ah dang so then this is on me
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sknebel (which also answers my question why HTTP2 does not auto-capitalize them which was my first guess at what the problem could've been)
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jacky that's easy enough to fix
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sknebel I guess this is "why are you using an API so low-level you put the method in as a string" ;)
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jacky heh mainly for this part:
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jacky > It uses blocking I/O instead of async I/O, because that keeps the API simple and and keeps dependencies to a minimum
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jacky the justification made a _lot_ of sense to me
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sknebel depends I guess, server-side blocking feels iffy without an app server managing threads etc
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sknebel (sure, you can write CGI in rust I guess :P)
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jacky the app server does!
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jacky haha yeah
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sknebel ah ok, one is involved. good :D
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jacky heh yeah esp since a lot of processing is done async
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sknebel I have a toy rust web project on the pile, but for now only gotten started at writing the README describing what its supposed to do :D
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sknebel and then got lost in a haystack of libraries ;)
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jacky yeah library palooza is something I'm trying to fight lol
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jacky so many things to pick from
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sknebel yeah. looked at axum just based of it seeing it mentioned more often than others on twitter, but the pile of stuff that then builds on is ... interesting
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sknebel not necessarily bad, but
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jacky yah - and gotta hope it's not dropped in a few weeks (lol)
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sknebel it seemed more alive than others :D
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