#dev 2022-03-07

2022-03-07 UTC
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YimingWu[d] What is this karma thing 🤔
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this karma thing 🤔" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "this karma thing 🤔 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is karma?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "karma" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "karma is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] What is Loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/Loqi
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[jgmac1106] Karma is a community recognition tool used in the IndieWeb community and powered by the friendly bot Loqi. Members can award each other a Karma point by adding ++ after a chat name
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Loqi ok
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[jgmac1106] So YimingWu[d] I can now ask Loqi what is Karma
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[jgmac1106] What is Karma?
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Loqi Karma is a community recognition tool used in the IndieWeb community and powered by the friendly bot Loqi https://indieweb.org/Karma
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[tantek] from a converesation in #microformats, it seems we have had the question of how to markup the alt for a icon/image of someone next to their name several times, so it may be worth an explicit new subsection inside /alt#How_to. What do folks think and/or do with their sites currently, both for their own posts, and when displaying others's icons/names in /respones?
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[tantek] (would appreciate discussion of the markup challenge, hence here in #indieweb-dev, documentation in the wiki is hopefully a side-effect of that)
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jacky goes to check scrollback for context
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jacky this makes me wonder about those images
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jacky I don't show _any_ images right now on my site mainly b/c I wanted to rethink a11y a bit
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jacky (one less thing to worry about it)
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prologic Q: Are there any recommendations on the hub.lease_seconds that should be used by a WebSub Hub?
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Loqi prologic: sknebel left you a message 12 hours, 15 minutes ago: afaik that stuff is for wildcard subscriptions etc - the spec is a bit vague/confusing on this kind of thing, because as I understand it it wants to enable flexibility for that without explicitly specifying it
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prologic sknebel sorry bud I tend not to hand around in large channels due to my vision impairment and my inability to "keep up"
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prologic What was this about? ☝️
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this about? ☝️" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "this about? ☝️ is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky prologic: the spec hints at 10 days https://w3c.github.io/websub/
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jacky > Hubs SHOULD enforce short lived hub.lease_seconds (10 days is a good default).
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prologic 10 days is considered short?
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prologic WOW :O
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prologic I've set my default to 3600s at the moment
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prologic But I think it's too short :/
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jacky def tweak it to what works for you
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prologic that's why I'm asking ;)
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prologic I have no idea what works for me at this point
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prologic Once thing I've noticed on a busy multi-user pod like mine at twtxt.net with over 1.2k subscribed feeds and some ~300+ users that it takes a while for the pod to go through all feeds and potentially setup websub subs for them
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prologic mostly because my impl makes heavy use of queues and processes new subs and even outgoing notifs every ~5s once at a time
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prologic So as an example it would take almost the entire default lease_seconds to get all subscriptions regsitered, verified and confirmed
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prologic So for that reason alone I think my default of 3600s is too small :D
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prologic Is the reason for a 10d default mostly due to the fact maintaining the subs is quite minimal in terms of resource cost and clients don't really maintain active connections
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jacky prologic: try setting it for a day lease and see how it works with that
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jacky some monitoring or tracing could help see where to relive pressure where needed
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prologic I'm just gonna change the code to use 10d :)
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prologic Yeah `yarnd` has extensive internal monitoring
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prologic I've yet to add stats/metrics for my websub impl though, I'll do that soon
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prologic I _might_ publish my indieweb package at some point separatately
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prologic as it's turning into a reuseable package that others could benefit from
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jacky reusability++
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Loqi reusability has 1 karma over the last year
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jacky it makes it easier for people to contribute since it's in a smaller location too!
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GWG jacky: Saw you fixed that Ticket auth page. What do you think of the different approaches?
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jacky I like the idea of a incoming form for people to get access with a lot
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jacky I think that's what I wanted my IndieAuth setup to do as well
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jacky allowing people to enter some sort of identifier that I can either do the IndieAuth dance with or handle some sort of OAuth login flow
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jacky and use that to allow people to see some things
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GWG Yes, I just wanted to document what that means. It doesn't necessarily mean you have private content, it could be that what you decide to give them is set up subsequently.
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jacky precisely
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jacky like walking around with a badge/key card that if needed can be used but isn't required for everything else
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GWG Yes, and I think people thinking about this concept don't have somewhere to start on the what and why
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prologic aaronpk btw did you file that IndieAuth issue upstream go Gitea to get that discussion and hopefully an implemtnation going?
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YimingWu[d] Had a bit time and dug a bit more. I find the idea of `h-card` and webmention really interesting, and I shall probably set it up for my own blog in order to interconnect with all the rest of the indie websites 😄
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capjamesg[d] YimingWu++
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Loqi YimingWu has 2 karma over the last year
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YimingWu[d] And I finally learned how to do a SelfAuth... I shall implement that into my website and then I can finally join the indieweb directory with everyone 😄
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YimingWu[d] I shall also modify the self auth code a bit to take advantage of my existing page
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[tantek] in case folks missed this: https://twitter.com/jachands/status/1500173829733240844
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@jachands web dev: It's simple! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNGwGLJXIAAkOF9.png (twitter.com/_/status/1500173829733240844)
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[tantek] ^ really curious if anyone here actually builds sites with code / directories like that. Or frankly if anyone who does practice that kind of directory structures (and thinks it's a good thing) does so with their own site
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YimingWu[d] I seriously doubt anyone would build personal sites like that
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YimingWu[d] Like my site is literally one php file
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YimingWu[d] With like 5000 lines...
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capjamesg[d] I don't think that amount of config is necessary for a personal website.
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capjamesg[d] But I have no doubt enterprise applications have a structure that starts to resemble that.
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capjamesg[d] (in JavaScript)
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YimingWu[d] Personal sites have the freedom to do simple stuff
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capjamesg[d] Indeed!
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capjamesg[d] Although my site is complex haha, just not with all of that configuration.
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YimingWu[d] I only write a little js for dynamic loading... and my site is completely <noscript> navigatable.
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YimingWu[d] No resource loaded... so it's fast as well
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capjamesg[d] My site uses JS to render webmentions and to support dark mode.
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YimingWu[d] I haven't developed webmention thing into mine yet
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YimingWu[d] Yay just got self auth integration working
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YimingWu[d] Huh I got a weird question tho... If I have set up an self auth, do I still need to have indie auth and a `rel-me` to my twitter for it to authoritize?
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sknebel Selfauth is an implementation of IndieAuth
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sknebel IndieAuth is a protocol
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sknebel confusingly, there is also a service called IndieAuth*.com*
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YimingWu[d] Well I'm now able to login onto the wiki using my self auth
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sknebel right
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YimingWu[d] So I think that part is done now?
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sknebel yes
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sknebel because the wiki sees you have an indieauth endpoint, and thus you can log in with indieauth
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YimingWu[d] Great!
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sknebel the thing with twitter etc is an alternative, e.g. for people on static sites or that don't want to run an extra service (yet)
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YimingWu[d] So now let me see if I can go and find some directories I can join 🙂
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YimingWu[d] ah
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YimingWu[d] interestingly https://xn--sr8hvo.ws/ gives me a 400 error
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YimingWu[d] not sure why it does that
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sknebel [schmarty]: ^^^
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YimingWu[d] it does work for wiki login so I guess the auth part is correctly set up
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YimingWu[d] For microformats and webmention... Looks like I'll need to send a notice to the indie web index in order for the post to be listed... But what if I already have numerous posts?
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capjamesg[d] To what index are you referring YimingWu[d] ?
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Murray[d] tantek: I guess most of my sites look _a bit_ like that. I rarely have that many tools that need config files, but I know plenty of other people whose personal sites probably look exactly like that 🙂
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Murray[d] I mean, that screenshot looks bad, but it's really just config files for: ESLint, Prettier, TypeScript, Tailwind, PostCSS, and Remix. That's definitely a little heavy, but considering this looks like a Vue site, I'd expect TS, ESLint, and Prettier likely came out of the box; Tailwind **and** PostCSS together feels a little odd, but it's not that uncommon AFAIK; and Remix is pretty big right now, seems to work well for any level of routing/in
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YimingWu[d] capjamesg[d] let's say I
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YimingWu[d] [edit] capjamesg[d] let's say I'd like to show mu stuff on indieweb.xyz
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capjamesg[d] You can find instructions on how to do that here: https://indieweb.xyz/howto/en
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capjamesg[d] In terms of sites like IndieNews and indieweb.xyz, it's best not to submit all of your past posts. Instead, you could submit a few of your most recent ones and decide to syndicate IndieWeb posts to those sites in the future.
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capjamesg[d] This prevents overwhelming the front page of those sites with too many of your own posts at any one time 🙂
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capjamesg[d] Both IndieNews and indieweb.xyz accept submissions if you send them a valid webmention.
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capjamesg[d] Or you can add a syndication link and manually submit your post. You can do that on indieweb.xyz but I'm not so sure about IndieNews.
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YimingWu[d] Ah thank you! 😄
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YimingWu[d] But they don't seem to be quite as active tho. Is it possible to also post it to micro.blog?
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capjamesg[d] It is but that is a tad more involved.
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capjamesg[d] You need to create a feed that your micro.blog account subscribes to.
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capjamesg[d] Any posts you add to the feed will be syndicated to micro.blog
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capjamesg[d] I think they support RSS for syndication.
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YimingWu[d] Oh... then that's interesting. My blog doesn't have any capability to like/repost... it does support commenting, is it necessary to support those actions in order to syndicate?
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sknebel no
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YimingWu[d] huh then that's nice
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firfe am I right i thinking this isn't entirely self-hosted?
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Murray[d] firfe: what "this" are you referring to? Do you mean the IndieWeb chat? Or am I missing something obvious 😄
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capjamesg[d] What is the purpose of this: https://w3id.org/
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Murray[d] I guess it outsources the maintenance of link rot (if I'm understanding it correctly). Rather than link directly to a source, you link to W3ID and they redirect you to the correct URL. If that URL changes, so should their system (I'm not clear on how that part works) so your link still functions correctly.
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Zegnat Murray[d]: isn’t it super clear? :P “the community will mirror the information”. Sorry, could not help myself. Never seen that project but seems a little interesting.
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Zegnat I feel like there are similar projects that academics use for sourcing web resources
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Zegnat purl.org is probably the most well known one? Though I would love to hear about others. Running of purl was taken over by IA in 2016: https://blog.archive.org/2016/09/27/persistent-url-service-purl-org-now-run-by-the-internet-archive/
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Zegnat purl links were used for a bit with rel-profile actually, some can still be seen on the mf wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris#Experimental_URIs (Google for more examples: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rel%20profile%20purl)
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Zegnat Interesting bit of history there
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capjamesg[d] I assume the differentiation between W3ID and a regular URL shortener is a greater guarantee of permanence? Or is there also a technological benefit?
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capjamesg[d] I admit I haven't read into the work that the W3C working group cited in the W3ID page does.
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Zegnat The greater guarantee is basically it.
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Zegnat Though for that I would definitely hedge my bets on Internet Archive than on a GitHub repo. But that might just be me.
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jacky agh I want someone to experiment with /polls in the IndieWeb lol
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jacky I know it's not something we can POSSE to Twitter (but that's okay IMO)
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jacky what are polls
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "polls" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "polls is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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jacky polls are /poll
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Loqi ok
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jacky what are posts
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Loqi Post or posts may refer to individual pieces of content published on an indieweb site such as notes, articles, & responses, or the act of creating the aforementioned content (present tense), or Posts about the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/posts
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jacky gr
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jacky what are polls
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/polls
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jacky well
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jacky what is a poll
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Loqi question is a post type for soliciting answer replies, which are then typically up/down voted by others and then displayed underneath the question post ordered by highest positive vote count rather than time ordered https://indieweb.org/poll
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jacky okay so two levels of redirection don't work (that makes sense)
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jacky what are polls
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Loqi question is a post type for soliciting answer replies, which are then typically up/down voted by others and then displayed underneath the question post ordered by highest positive vote count rather than time ordered https://indieweb.org/polls
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[snarfed] we can definitely POSSE polls to Twitter! manually 😎
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jacky ah yeah ofc
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[KevinMarks] right, but consolidating votes across POSSE'd versions is tricky
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jacky I think I'd prioritize non-silo votes for presentation
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jacky like if I'm pulling it from Twitter, I would consolidate the values into one
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jacky if I had to graph it, I could expand that value (effectively making every vote have some sort of count)
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jacky the other way would be generating n amount of p-vote values assoc'd to Twitter
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jacky so graphing can be done based on grouping p-vote values
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[KevinMarks] https://twitter.com/hbuchel/status/1500639054370648065?s=20&t=uMoEifOtQ22XG_Q4kAEslw
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@hbuchel Every web developer has their "but what if I made my own CMS for this project?" phase at least once (twitter.com/_/status/1500639054370648065)
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[tantek] You only need once when that project is your own website, and then you're like no, no I won't be making a CMS for someone else, ever. Unless you're one of like a dozen people out of millions of web developers (hint: you're likely not, and that's ok too).
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[tantek] CMS << https://twitter.com/hbuchel/status/1500639054370648065
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/hbuchel/status/1500639054370648065" to the "See Also" section of /content_management_system https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=80014&oldid=75735
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[aciccarello] I keep telling myself that I don't need to make my own framework...
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[aciccarello] Not that I would have the time anyway
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jacky been noodling on how I want to set up the tables for lighthouse's microsub setup https://jacky.wtf/assets/lighthouse-db.png
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jacky trying to keep things a bit 'separated' so I can refresh them indepdently
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jacky *independently
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jacky ah I haven't finished the webmention aspect of things yet
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[tantek] aciccarello, you definitely don't need your own "framework". use web standards directly, and if it helps, use (or make) a library for common functions instead of copy/pasting. a library doesn't require adding a layer of abstraction (which frameworks do).
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[tantek] what is w3id
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "w3id" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "w3id is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] w3id is yet another attempt to recreate purl*org.
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] w3id << w3id.org
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Loqi ok, I added "w3id.org" to a brand new "See Also" section of /w3id https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=80016&oldid=80015
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[tantek] w3id << https://purl.org/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://purl.org/" to the "See Also" section of /w3id https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=80017&oldid=80016
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[tantek] what is a link shortener
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Loqi link shortener is a website that creates a shortlink (typically for any link) for use in space constrained contexts like SMS, Twitter pre-tco and other silos with post length limitations, and have been criticized for worsening link fragility https://indieweb.org/link_shortener
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sknebel indieweb relevance for that dfn? ;)
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[tantek] link shortener << [[w3id]] — a shortener, that like purl.org, places a high priority on maintaining permanence / [[longevity]].
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Loqi ok, I added "[[w3id]] — a shortener, that like purl.org, places a high priority on maintaining permanence / [[longevity]]." to a brand new "See Also" section of /link_shortener https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=80018&oldid=33040
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[tantek] w3id << [[link shortener]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[link shortener]]" to the "See Also" section of /w3id https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=80019&oldid=80017
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jacky I can't remember and I don't see this on https://brid.gy/about but if you attempt to repost a tweet that's already been tweeted, does Brid.gy return as if it was successful and returns the existing info?
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jacky dang okay it returns a 400
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jacky was _kinda_ hoping against that but that's okay
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[snarfed] sorry jacky! background in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/84 . idempotence like that would definitely be interesting! one big issue for Twitter at least is that we'd have to compare the current post to the one we originally published, and only return 2xx if it hasn't changed
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Loqi [snarfed] #84 allow updating a published post
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jacky ah yeah that's a good point - and petermolnar's suggestion is something I can use (with a bit of heuristics)
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[snarfed] oh wait I misread. you want to POSSE a retweet of an old (also POSSEd) post of yours?
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[snarfed] I haven't tried that, but I think it should work
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[snarfed] ah, nm, by "repost" you probably didn't mean retweet 😁
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