#dev 2022-06-10

2022-06-10 UTC
jeremycherfas, jjuran, gRegor, cjw6k_, mro and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
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@fakebaldur “The Spam Has Arrived - Miriam Eric Suzanne” Tackbacks, pingbacks, webmentions—they all seem to handwave their way through the spam problem. https://www.miriamsuzanne.com/2022/06/09/the-spam/ (twitter.com/_/status/1535201942254891009)
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[KevinMarks]1 well, we knew it was an issue
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[aciccarello] When I get webmentions working on my site, I'm probably going to do an allowlist.
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[aciccarello] It does appear CSS tricks gets pulled into a lot of content-stealing sites
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[aciccarello] I didn't see in that article if the spam was pingbacks or webmention
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[aciccarello] I can't find the developer who I'm thinking of who also had an issue when they got featured on css tricks
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sknebel I would assume pingbacks, but of course the issue is the same fundamentally
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[aciccarello] Interesting to see Chris Coyier's take on scrapers
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[aciccarello] https://css-tricks.com/scrapers-wear-doodoo-hats/
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[aciccarello] https://css-tricks.com/dealing-with-content-scrapers/
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crimsonkinda does it mention non-profit versus for-profit scraping?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> crimsonkinda Can you give an example of non-profit scraping?
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crimsonkinda Yesterday there was chatter about Beautiful Soup
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crimsonkinda the library is going some right reservers and Creative Commons License
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crimsonkinda the "Beautiful Soup to scrape a Chinese medical site for information about COVID-19, making it easier for researchers to track" information around ... that
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[aciccarello] I think CSS tricks is talking about scrapers who just steal blog posts and display it on their site for seo/advertising money.
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crimsonkinda its strange given its web design and called CSS
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sknebel ?
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crimsonkinda its not really css zen garden is it
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crimsonkinda https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31667067
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Loqi [memorable] Beautiful Soup
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crimsonkinda https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31667067
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Loqi [memorable] Beautiful Soup
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crimsonkinda really there shouldnt be any problem because we should have Email to communicate in a polite manner any problems clearly...
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crimsonkinda scrape is a term used because often the HTML is ... often written quickly
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crimsonkinda CSS Zen Garden is a great resource for re-thinking it correctly
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crimsonkinda capjamesg -- https://blog.tidelift.com/how-open-source-software-is-fighting-covid-19
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Loqi capjamesg has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (85 in all channels)
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sknebel lol
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sknebel capjamesg++
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Loqi capjamesg has 35 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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crimsonkinda more specifically on that page: https://blog.tidelift.com/how-open-source-software-is-fighting-covid-19#dxy-covid-19-crawler-by-blankerl
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sknebel ok but nothing there has to do anything with content-stealing sites that were the topic of the discussion
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crimsonkinda sknebel nice UX of a chat bot
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> sknebel I wondered why I just got Karma there 😂
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> crimsonkinda This is interesting.
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crimsonkinda describe content-stealing ... it should be clear that if content is online, it can be cited correctly and then linked back. The original author should be able to email and issue a soft-take-down of content
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sknebel and copying content wholesale is not "citing"
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crimsonkinda https://www.citationpod.com/ .... this is how people see it
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crimsonkinda dont follow
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crimsonkinda the Chat is about, "dealing-with-content-scrapers" from the URL
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crimsonkinda alternate solutions include using a log-in screen...
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crimsonkinda to make it clear the data requires a "subscription" membership
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crimsonkinda accounting of the browse -- but i dont know your chat
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crimsonkinda about copying content wholesale or the content issues you are having
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[schmarty] crimsonkinda: it's not reasonable to expect the operators of CSS tricks to contact sites that republish their content without permission.
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crimsonkinda User Login has been spoken about before on: https://github.com/ory/kratos
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crimsonkinda https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31679811
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Loqi [nottennis] Show HN: Ory Kratos – Open-source identity server written in Go
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Loqi [ory] kratos: Next-gen identity server (think Auth0, Okta, Firebase) with Ory-hardened authentication, MFA, FIDO2, profile management, identity schemas, social sign in, registration, account recovery, passwordless. Golang, headless, API-only - without templating or theming headaches. Available as a cloud service.
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crimsonkinda goes on about permissions
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crimsonkinda from alternate log-ins such as Google
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[schmarty] crimsonkinda: scraping prevention as a technical issue is unrelated to republishing of content without permission. Publicly available content is still protected by copyright
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[schmarty] Regardless, this discussion is getting out of scope. The more IndieWeb-relevant issue is how Miriam can deal with the unwanted mentions from sites republishing the CSS Tricks article
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aaronpk This happens to me when people write a blog post that links to OAuth.net, then I get a flood of notifications of spam blogs that copy the post
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crimsonkinda and notifications is something you can turn off or ignore?
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aaronpk I mostly just ignore them
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aaronpk what I should be doing is blocking those domains from future notifications
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crimsonkinda i sympathize with that situation... it can be difficult
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aaronpk Is anyone maintaining a list of these kinds of spam sites? Seems like akismet might have a list already
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[aciccarello] I remember seeing a list from someone else who had an issue after posting on css-tricks but I can't find it 😞
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@TerribleMia The other day, I posted an article about implementing webMentions on my site. Today, I’m battling a constant stream of spam in my mentions. My simple precautions for display have had one false positive, and one false negative so far… https://www.miriamsuzanne.com/2022/06/09/the-spam/ (twitter.com/_/status/1535279368741724161)
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crimsonkinda going back the "indieweb yet" https://www.miriamsuzanne.com/2022/06/04/indiweb/
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crimsonkinda can social platforms and personal sites be different answers to different problems
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Loqi [Miriam Eric Suzanne] Am I on the IndieWeb Yet?
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omz13 Are there any sites who generate feeds per the jf2feed+json spec?
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jacky putting the finishing touches on this post about changes I made to my site
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jacky mainly about implementing some of the fields at https://github.com/indieweb/micropub-extensions/issues/4#issuecomment-412349552= (found it potentially useful for generating feeds)
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Loqi [grantcodes] I've updated my implementation so I support a bunch of new features expanding on what @EdwardHinkle already mentioned When using `q=source` there is now a lot of other parameters available: - `post-type=type` - Filters the returned posts to on...
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gRegor what is jf2feed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "jf2feed" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "jf2feed is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor do you mean jsonfeed, omz13?
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gRegor what is jf2
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Loqi jf2 is a W3C Note and a JSON Post Serialization Format of microformats2 for that is optimized for h-entry consuming code, as compared to the standard microformats JSON representation https://indieweb.org/jf2
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gRegor Some examples on https://indieweb.org/jf2#IndieWeb_Examples
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[snarfed] hmm jf2feed docs were at https://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#jf2feed, but not any more...?
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[snarfed] some background on https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/109
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Loqi [snarfed] #109 support JF2
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gRegor [snarfed], moved here? https://www.w3.org/TR/jf2/#jf2feed
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omz13 ahem, actually here https://jf2.spec.indieweb.org
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gRegor Ah! :)
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gRegor Updated on /jf2feed
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omz13 its annoying that the names of things are confusing... jsonfeed is not jf2feed
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gRegor Aye, figured that out now. I had forgotten about jf2
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gRegor naming is hard, haha
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[grantcodes] Still really love that query filtering idea [jacky], there's a lot of potential with it that has yet to be fulfilled
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jacky me too! I've kept it in the corner of my idea and I def see it being useful in social readers (or even if someone's signed into someone else's site, could use it to find what was linked to by the visitor)
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[manton] It would be nice to merge JSON Feed and JF2 at some point. JF2 is used more in APIs, JSON Feed more in traditional feed files.
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[manton] I’m not aware of any JF2 feeds in the wild.
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/notes.jf2
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[snarfed] see now you're just showing off
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[snarfed] 😁
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[manton] I stand corrected! 🙂
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aaronpk :D
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omz13 aaronpk your notes.jf2 has "items" and instead of "children" to contain the entry?!
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aaronpk it's a feed, not an item with children
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aaronpk children is only for child objects of another object
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aaronpk same reason the top-level property of a parsed microformats feed is "items"
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[KevinMarks]1 This is the tension between microformats (which are arbitrarily nestable) and "feeds" which are linear
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omz13 jf2feed uses "children" not "items"
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omz13 feed (collection?) uses "items"
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omz13 my head hurts!
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aaronpk if the top-level item were an h-feed then it would have children
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aaronpk this is true with microformats json even before simplifying it to jf2
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omz13 the jf2 spec talks "children" not "items"
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aaronpk the example here is a feed item with children https://jf2.spec.indieweb.org/#jf2feed_example
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aaronpk mine doesn't follow that, it's just a bunch of entries
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aaronpk that's the same difference between tantek.com and aaronparecki.com, tantek's is an h-card with child items, mine is just a bunch of items
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omz13 you have a rel=application/jf2feed+json and then return something that isn't quite what I'm expecting
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aaronpk clearly we need a jf2 feed validator
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omz13 I have something that analyzes a body and tries to make sense of what is there... guess I'll have to add some jf2feed sniffing/linting to it
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omz13 Some of its analysis/sniffing is exposed in toolbox under fetch public resource
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[grantcodes] I also have JF2 feed. Quite likely to be invalid though 😅 https://backend.grant.codes/micropub/plugin/feeds/jf2
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[snarfed] do any of our protocols use jf2feed?
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[snarfed] JF2 itself seems important, it's used in microsub etc. otherwise though, I wonder how important jf2feed is, if we already have h-feed (and JSONFeed)
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@jrcooper I dig it. https://indieweb.org/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1535379456809791488)
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gRegor Yeah I was wondering what the uses were
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[tantek] I think it's a chance to simplify and converge jf2 & jsonfeed
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[tantek] simplifying is a use-case
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[tantek] (less work for more people)
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