#dev 2022-07-03

2022-07-03 UTC
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AramZ-S[m] Curious: do many people run their own version of the Bridgy server?
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GWG jacky: See pop-up?
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GWG As in, great thing to discuss
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GWG AramZ-S[m]: Not that I'm aware of
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jacky GWG: I think I already set my preferred dates :)
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GWG jacky: I meant, it's a great topic related
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jacky ah gotcha
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jacky I'll try to remember it for then!
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GWG jacky: Once we get a date, we can start putting together some resources for it
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GWG We have 4 people for the 6th of August already
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[snarfed] AramZ-S afaik no one runs their own Bridgy. I don't want to encourage it, since it's not designed to be private or behind any auth, so I don't want people confused by multiple instances run by different people
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jacky is there a list of all of the 'algorithms' like https://microformats.org/wiki/representative-h-card-parsing?
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jacky noticing it doesn't use categories so one would have to comb
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[snarfed] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (57 in all channels)
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jacky a bit of context to my request: I'm looking to see what kind of patterns I've implemented in my site that I'd want to move to a library to ease development for others
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jacky for example, we got https://spec.indieweb.org which made making https://docs.rs/indieweb/latest/indieweb/standards/index.html pretty easy
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jacky even as far as providing examples of use https://docs.rs/indieweb/latest/indieweb/standards/indieauth/index.html (for indieauth, for example, need to flesh out the others)
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jacky I figure this is more mature for PHP and Python
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Zegnat jacky: re #indieweb; "haven't had a forcing reason yet lol" - what do you think would have gotten you to spend more time on ticketauth?
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Zegnat A discussion question mostly. I wonder what we need to get even people so internally to our own community to think more about it
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Zegnat is also an example of not having implemented it
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jacky I think it's mainly tools that I'm using that don't use it as a minimum version (the version being indieauth's version)
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jacky that said, I _might_ have to because even with that example above, you'd have to manually craft the request to verify a token
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jacky and the underlying OAuth2 crate I use has a concept of the introspection endpoint and requires it to do that (ugh)
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jacky that might be it for me :)
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Zegnat Mmm, interesting. So it is more a block by plumbing than by the idea?
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GWG jacky: The new indieauth has an introspection endpoint that complies with oauth2
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[snarfed] I met with Matt Wise recently, https://havenweb.org/ founder, and he was interested in TicketAuth etc since Haven is entirely private
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GWG That was part of the point of the change, to allow existing libraries to support with minimal changes
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GWG I may do a run at updating the proposed ticket auth spec again
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GWG I updated the original version to align with the way other Indieweb specs were described
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GWG I still just like the philosophy behind Ticket Auth, that it shifts responsibility from the consumer to the publisher
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jacky IIRC you implemented the new updates, right GWG?
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jacky did that seem to make TicketAuth easier to implement?
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jacky needs to take tomorrow to do it since it's a day off :😜ī¸
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GWG jacky: If you need someone to bounce things off, happy to try being a sounding board.
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GWG But, not really. The only difference between pre-update Ticket Auth and post-update is that you discover Ticket Auth through the metadata endpoint instead of another link header
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GWG Ticket Auth is the easy part. The hard part of rme was audience-restricted posts, which I still haven't finished
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jacky hmmmmm
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GWG Hmmm?
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jacky well the fact that ticketauth can be discerned from the metadata endpoint
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jacky makes me want to do the upgrade first then implement it
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jacky don't wanna have to change the discovery logic (though I think I abstracted that so consumers wouldn't need to know _how_ it got it)
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jacky 2nd it = the ticketauth endpoint
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jacky [snarfed]: that's even more reason for me to get into it
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jacky like if by me implementing something, it encourages others to do so, I'd be down
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jacky (but that also increases the size of things to do lol)
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GWG jacky: Thus is life..I removed link discovery for the ticket endpoint but kept it for token and authorization endpoint for backcompat for now
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jacky that makes sense!
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jacky I have this object https://docs.rs/indieweb/latest/indieweb/standards/indieauth/struct.DiscoveryResult.html for capturing such info
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jacky so maybe I could just hammer out ticketauth and _then_ upgrade
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jacky lol it's def a coin toss
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GWG Up to you
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jacky ah-ha! this is the closest I've found to a 'collection of algos' page https://indieweb.org/discovery-algorithms
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jacky lol and I've contributed to it
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[tantek] jacky, "all of the algorithms like", you mean a list of specs?
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[tantek] what are specifications
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Loqi Specifications (or standards) are technical documentation for communicating between two or more implementations in an interoperable way; for the indieweb in particular, standards help reach greater levels IndieMark user functionality to publish, express meaning, notify, subscribe, and many other user actions https://indieweb.org/specifications
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[tantek] what are all of the algorithms
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "all of the algorithms" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "all of the algorithms is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] all of the algorithms are /specifications
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Loqi ok
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[KevinMarks] This thread is an interesting argument for indieweb style composability https://twitter.com/defnotbeka/status/1543668749374332928?t=GXicHuiOVMlucIrP-Hb5AA&s=19
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@defnotbeka so I had an interesting realization the other day while half asleep, about a connection between software design and video game design in particular, a connection between the design principles behind Deus Ex and the implicit design principles of general software ecosystems (twitter.com/_/status/1543668749374332928)
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jacky [tantek]: nahh we got https://spec.indieweb.org I think for that
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jacky I'm thinking more like /ptd and /opd and even /authorship
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jacky I think I managed to get a small list of things
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jacky I might update the wiki and link the pages together (since there's already a page for it)
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[tantek] hmm, if it's an algorithm that's important for implementations doing things across sites, it really should be developed into a specification (and thus listed at spec.indieweb)
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[tantek] at least a draft
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[tantek] jacky, note that all three of those, /ptd /opd /authorship are listed/linked in https://indieweb.org/specifications#IndieWeb_Specifications
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jacky good to note that (re: evolution of them)
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jacky hmmm okay
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jacky I think then I kinda misunderstood the difference b/w a spec and standard then
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jacky a spec is kinda like a pre-standard? lol
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[tantek] yes a spec can be any "level" of a standard in development. something is a spec whether it's a draft, has some implementations, or is "ratified" (e.g. W3C REC, or IETF RFC that's been given a number etc.)
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@kevinmarks ↩ī¸ The design centre of webmention and micropub are "can I do this with an html form or simple curl?" https://indieweb.org/Webmention-developer#How_to_send_webmentions_with_cURL https://indieweb.org/Micropub#Form-encoded_Microformats_Representation (twitter.com/_/status/1543680569321701379)
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[tantek] jacky, some more philosophy on what makes a "standard" a standard in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto_standard
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[tantek] though wikipedia is badly (surprisingly) lacking a good "de jure standards" page (it just redirects to "de jure" which is not about standards at all)
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[KevinMarks] My mantra is "standards are documentation, not legislation" - once you start explaining how to interoperate you are doing standards work
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jacky [KevinMarks]: I like that framing
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jacky [tantek]: this also helps too!
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