#dev 2022-11-16

2022-11-16 UTC
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[snarfed] [aaronpk] your web site only has one AP user and inbox, right?
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aaronpk correct
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[snarfed] I noticed the AP shared inbox feature just now, https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#shared-inbox-delivery , which sounds like it should significantly reduce the AP traffic I get, but probably wouldn't help you, your repeated Delete problem is different
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aaronpk I do check for a sharedInbox when I'm sending outgoing messages tho
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[snarfed] ah sorry, missed your GH issue comment, 👍
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[snarfed] I do the same for outbound, but somehow inbound hadn't occurred to me yet
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@kevinmarks ↩️ If you're already hosting a blog, you can bridge to fediverse with https://fed.brid.gy/ but it is some setup (twitter.com/_/status/1592674717210927104)
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] that makes it sound like more work that it is IMO
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[tantek] especially in the context of that question!
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[snarfed] let me implement https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/276, and then maybe we can start claiming it's easy ish 😎
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[tantek] it's a lot LESS setup to bridge an existing notes/articles blog via Bridgy Fed, than it is to install & run Mastodon
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Loqi [snarfed] #276 Better homepage account setup flow
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[snarfed] hah well yeah if that's the bar
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[tantek] [snarfed] I didn't say it was *easy!* You know me better than that 🙂
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[snarfed] fair!
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[tantek] but that is the difference, it looks like [Simon_Willison] *did* install Mastodon on https://fedi.simonwillison.net/@simon instead of "just" setting up notes/articles on his own blog and hooking it up with Bridgy Fed
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barnaby IMO “some setup” is reasonable and honest given that most people probably won’t already have automatic webmention sending set up
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Loqi Simon Willison
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barnaby well, he’s paying masto.host to run mastodon for him
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[tantek] "some setup" is reasonable yes. however "but it is some setup" implies much more work
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[tantek] more to the point, it implies it is more work than setting up a Mastodon instance, which is false
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[snarfed] barnaby++ yeah that's maybe the micro.blog of single-user mastodon instances
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Loqi barnaby has 34 karma in this channel over the last year (51 in all channels)
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barnaby yep, that is definitely true
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[tantek] I bet even the work to setup masto.host is *more* than I had to do to get Bridgy Fed working
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[snarfed] heh maybe
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[snarfed] on a semi related note, I'm seeing an interesting AP behavior. I'm debugging a Bridgy Fed bug where it sometimes omits `actor` entirely, but oddly the activity still works
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[snarfed] eg this follow from gregorlove.com to https://toot.cafe/@aciccarello had no actor or anything else identifying @gregorlove.com@gregorlove.com, but it still worked, which you can see here: https://toot.cafe/users/aciccarello/followers
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barnaby [tantek]: do you have automatic webmention sending set up on tantek.com?
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[tantek] yes
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barnaby nice
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[snarfed] (and yes maybe AP debugging is off topic here, maybe I'll start taking these to https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ )
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[tantek] webmention sending & Internet Archive link archiving for outbound links
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Loqi Anthony Ciccarello
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barnaby oh cool
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[snarfed] I suspect it takes the keyId from the HTTP Signature headers. still surprising though
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[tantek] snarfed, barnaby, to be fair, I definitely benefited from already having a notes posting / webmention sending / webmention receiving queue via webmention.io setup
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[snarfed] true
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[tantek] I think for folks like [Simon_Willison], the barrier is more UX of posting notes than it is plumbing
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barnaby I’ve had local archiving of the html content for years, might look into also getting automatic IA archives
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[tantek] the nice thing about automatic IA archiving of things you link to is that *if you want* you can go back and link to the version you archived
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[tantek] like when sites die. though I haven't done this yet. it's more like a, I've enabled this possibility for a future version of my site
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barnaby about posting UX: not only do most existing blog implementations not have good note posting UX, they have no reply, repost or like UX, which is likely to be a barrier to people enjoying using their existing blogs to interop with mastodon et al
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barnaby I suspect part of the appeal of either installing mastodon or having someone run it for you is that you get note, reply, repost and like posting all from a single UI with an integrated social(-ish) reader
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[aciccarello] [snarfed] I imagine different versions of mastodon make things harder to debug. toot.cafe is on an older version right now.
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barnaby and when you consider the amount of work it takes to get an equivalent UX running on your own site, it probably gets quite a lot closer to the amount of effort required to run a masto instance
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barnaby I think that’s where the challenge is
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barnaby IMO masto’s reader doesn’t count as a good social reader yet as afaik it can only consume AP content, not HTML/RSS/ATOM/JSONfeed etc
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barnaby but for the content that it can consume, it offers a much better “full-stack” reading and posting UX
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[aciccarello] It feels close to a social reader from the perspective of being able to follow non-mastodon sites like pixelfed and write.as from the same interface. But I do wish it had broader support than just ActivityPub.
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[tantek] barnaby yea, I think that's an accurate observation about the "you get note, reply, repost and like posting all from a single UI"
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[tantek] tbh I think having those responses be "harder" (e.g. having to hand code them 👀 ) has made me reconsider & very deliberately prioritize what I take the time to respond to.
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[tantek] the easy UI to "reply, repost and like" I *suspect* is what is at the heart of the Argument Machine Problem http://powazek.com/posts/3368 — which ironically (though not unexpectedly) I'm seeing replicated in various Mastodon instances / threads, completely outside of Twitter
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barnaby I’ve noticed that even with a fairly quick reply posting UX, just the fact that I’m posting the reply *on my site* rather than on someone else’s site or on a silo makes me think harder about what I want to say and how
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aaronpk ^^
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barnaby the fact that historically my replies showed up on my homepage feed definitely affected this
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[tantek] I don't see it being replicated in micro.blog, but that's because [manton] has been *very* deliberate about a microblogging UX, much more beyond "just clone Twitter" obviously
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barnaby but for me this is a big part of of the argument for posting content on your own domain
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[tantek] barnaby yes those two are factors for me too
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[tantek] it's one of the reasons I keep my replies on my home page (though excluded from sidefiles / Atom)
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barnaby the new version of my site will allow me to hide replies and likes from the homepage and it’ll be interesting to see whether that affects my behaviour
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[tantek] I think if your reply doesn't feel right to display on your home page, perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying in your reply
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barnaby I’m hoping it will lead to a balance where I still take more time to consider what I’m writing, but do so more often
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[tantek] instead of just "not showing replies on your home page"
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[tantek] I believe that's possible
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barnaby I don’t post very much, so I want the content on my homepage to represent me well, and not every reply is going to do that simply due to lack of sufficient context. I will probably still show some replies on my homepage, but only when they’re substantial posts in their own right
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barnaby it could also be an opportunity to do some semi-private content — say, showing replies on the homepage if the person visiting my site is logged in and is someone I’ve communicated with before
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[tantek] interesting, I like the idea, but not the framing. I wouldn't view that as semi-private, instead, I'd view that as providing a "more curated summary" for "general viewing", and then a "more complete stream" for those that took the time to sign-in
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barnaby yep that sounds more accurate
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[tantek] what is home page stream
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "home page stream" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "home page stream is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] home page stream is /homepage#Stream
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Loqi ok
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[tantek] barnaby, that's worth adding to /homepage#Brainstorming IMO
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barnaby done, got to go now
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gRegor GWG, could you try logging in to https://indiebookclub.biz/?
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GWG It signed me in
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gRegor yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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gRegor Always nice to have outside confirmation. Things seemed fine for me but no one else had logged in since launched updates yesterday
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GWG gRegor: Happy to help
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[KevinMarks] I am not sure how much https://vickiboykis.com/ has set up in terms of notes posting, mf2 and webmention sending already…
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[snarfed] gRegor congrats on the new indiebookclub release!
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[snarfed] a couple small login ideas: consider stripping whitespace from the beginning and end of the web site, and consider adding http:// if they only enter domain?
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gRegor thanks!
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gRegor oh it should do the http thing, did it stop?
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gRegor *checks*
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gRegor Guess it did! Quick fix.
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gRegor No, wait, the indieauth lib does that with normalize. It doesn't reflect in the URL parameter though, is that what you mean? https://indiebookclub.biz/auth/start?me=gregorlove.com?restart=1
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aaronpk the javascript hack for that is great, highly recommended
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[snarfed] oh never mind, I guess the trailing whitespace was the problem both times
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gRegor https://indiebookclub.biz/auth/start?me=gregorlove.com&debug-me=1
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gRegor spaces should be trimmed now
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[snarfed] gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (74 in all channels)
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[iambismark] 👋 hi all
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[iambismark] what are some strategies for storing images/videos/etc?
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[iambismark] all of my text -> stored as markdown w/ toml front-matter in git, simple!
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[iambismark] • git lfs / git annex? - i’ve found that support for these can be a bit spotty if i want to say use some hosted service for generating / deploying my site
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[iambismark] but what to do with binary data?
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[iambismark] • just check straight in to git - conventional wisdom is this is a Bad Thing™, but maybe its not a big deal for a single person repo? bloats the repo size, maybe above what hosted services would like
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "some strategies for storing images/videos/etc" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "some strategies for storing images/videos/etc is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[iambismark] • store them externally somewhere and just reference them? s3?
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[iambismark] curious how other folks approach this..
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[iambismark] good bot, but not my intention 😄
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[schmarty] what is Morris?
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Loqi Morris is a self-hosted PHP service for storing Webmentions from webmention.io in a JSON format that static sites can use to render them without querying webmention.io on each build https://indieweb.org/Morris
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[schmarty] Oops I mean
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[schmarty] What is spano?
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Loqi Spano is a micropub media endpoint which accepts file uploads via Micropub and returns a URL for use in a subsequent Micropub post https://indieweb.org/Spano
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[schmarty] iambismark: I use Spano as my "store them externally and just reference them" solution. A Micropub media endpoint is a pretty powerful building block (if you are using Micropub generally)
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[iambismark] handy thanks. so you are running this on a server, where do the files themselves end up for long term storage/backup? s3/equivalent?
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[schmarty] Unrelated idle dev thought: what if we had a service that provided little validation badge images to verify that a given page had its microformats or rels or etc correct?
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[schmarty] iambismark: I run it on my own server, yeah. It's a barebones content-addressed system that just stores on and serves from the server itself. I do have automated backups for that server.
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[tantek] oh yeah! something that IndieWebify.me could show you to copy/paste to embed once your site validated "something"
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[tantek] e.g. ✅ rel-me
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[tantek] ✅ h-card
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[schmarty] tantek: yeah and the nice thing about those badges is they can tell you when things break!
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[tantek] ✅ h-entry
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[tantek] etc.
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[tantek] yup
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[schmarty] ✅ Micropub
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[tantek] we can make green ones for microformats, and red, orange, yellow ones for IndieWeb
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[schmarty] (And media and webmention and IndieAuth and websub and etc)
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[schmarty] Hahaha that is cute
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Loqi rofl
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[tantek] and when they've gotten all four colors, we give them a blue checkmark because that's what people really want apparently
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[tantek] we have purple for something EXTRA special later
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aaronpk Oh like the GitHub test result badges
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[schmarty] aaronpk: exactly yep
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[snarfed] careful if you encourage people to show these badges on their sites. if they fetch and parse on every request, you'll take on the entire load of every site that uses them. so you'll want to cache, but then they won't be real time
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[tantek] oh yeah I thought more like W3C style badges, static image, linked to the validation check so anyone can manually check that it's true
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aaronpk Definitely not on every request but there's an opportunity there for sure
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aaronpk I like the idea of some level of automation tho
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[schmarty] Hehe yes there are definitely Considerations
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aaronpk the badge would be a way to prove that your site passes some validation rules, almost like a verifiable credential
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aaronpk 😎
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[schmarty] I am thinking of them more as a way to gently notice something has broken (or changed unexpectedly). Caching for a while seems totally fine. There are other tools to help validate real-time.
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[tantek] lol. homebacksintohedges.gif
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[schmarty] :melting_face:
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[KevinMarks] You could extend verify-me to check more things
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[jamietanna] !tell iambismark I use a separate Git repo for my site's media that gets deployed to Netlify, as I'd written most of the code I needed at the time, but now I'd probably stick it into S3 with CloudFront for caching
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[Murray] ^ would be cool to be able to do this as part of a build step as well, kind of like Lighthouse; get back your IndieWeb score/verification level or something
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[Murray] relevant to Twitter exports/imports: https://indieweb.social/@philhawksworth/109353365961680480
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Loqi [Phil Hawksworth] If like me and many others, you're in the process of moving your tweets to a new home on your own site, a word of caution:Tweets to twitter circles are not labelled as such in the export, so be aware of the risk of making public what you might have i...
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[tantek] ^ yet another good example of the problem with the “just use RSS” methodology
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[tantek] Also the need for a way to explicitly capture the /audience for a post in markup, i.e. something the server would parse and serve appropriately
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Has anyone played around with https://arc.net/?
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[tantek] h-entry << to do: file issue to figure out a mechanism (property & protocol?) to handle explicitly expression of the explicit [[audience]] for a post. Use-case: exporting of mixed public / protected / private posts into a single h-feed, where each post expresses its audience, so that when imported, the destination can replicate the expected privacy. May be applicable to any vocab.
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Loqi ok, I added "to do: file issue to figure out a mechanism (property & protocol?) to handle explicitly expression of the explicit [[audience]] for a post. Use-case: exporting of mixed public / protected / private posts into a single h-feed, where each post expresses its audience, so that when imported, the destination can replicate the expected privacy. May be applicable to any vocab." to the "See Also" section of /h-entry https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84403&oldid=79606
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barnaby capjamesg: there was some discussion of it recently, I think a few people here have tried it out
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[tantek] h-entry << ^ real world example of lack of this kind of support potentially causing a problem: relevant to Twitter exports/imports: https://indieweb.social/@philhawksworth/109353365961680480
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Loqi ok, I added "^ real world example of lack of this kind of support potentially causing a problem: relevant to Twitter exports/imports: https://indieweb.social/@philhawksworth/109353365961680480" to the "See Also" section of /h-entry https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84404&oldid=84403
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> What is Arc?
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[tantek] @manton does micro.blog support individual friends-only posts? How do you maintain that information in an export of your entire stream (mixed public, friends-only etc posts)
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[tantek] [manton] idk why that ^ didn’t link you
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[campegg] c​apjamesg I have. It’s… OK. I set it as my default for a week to give it a fair shot, but ended up going back to Safari as my daily driver. They are definitely exploring some interesting concepts around what a browser can be. Want an invite?
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[manton] [tantek] Nope, no friends-only posts right now… Everything is public, although some people tell Google not to index, etc. to make their blog more difficult to find.
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[snarfed] unlisted++
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Loqi unlisted has 1 karma over the last year
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barnaby I thought a bit about data exports and limited-audience content a while back, and IMO the most robust method is either for data exports to only contain limited audience content if it’s specifically requested, or to segregate it away from public content to limit the likelihood that it ends up anywhere it shouldn’t be
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sknebel Yes, putting it in a separate structure sounds like a good idea
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barnaby having top-level /public and /private folders in the export makes it very clear what’s going on
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sknebel What is export?
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Loqi export (specifically, How to export your data) in the context of the indieweb refers to the ability to download some or all of your data from a site, typically from a silo, though also for CMS or site migration https://indieweb.org/Export
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[Murray] out of interest, for those running their own Mastodon instance (or, I guess using Bridgy Fed, I'm not 100% sure on the distinction), do you still get Local and Federated feeds?
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aaronpk the "local" feed isn't really a concept in a single-user instance
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aaronpk it's the feed of what everyone on your instance is posting
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aaronpk so.. your own posts
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[Murray] yeah that's what I figured, just wanted to make sure
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[snarfed] funny, I don't follow anyone on Twitter, so "[my] own posts" is my Twitter timeline too 😆
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aaronpk ha
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[snarfed] https://snarfed.org/2019-11-09_39345
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] A few days ago, I unfollowed everyone on Twitter, added them all to a list, and I now read that list instead. It’s shockingly better. Only their own tweets and retweets, in order. No ads, no “liked by,” no “people you may know,” no engageme...
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aaronpk anyone have experience with Mastodon's account migration feature? I'm wondering what it would take to migrate from an actual Mastodon instance to Bridgy Fed or a DIY one for instance
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[manton] I’ve been meaning to look into that as well. I think it uses the “aliases” in WebFinger, but there’s more to it also.
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aaronpk there's definitely more to it
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[snarfed] there's a custom Move AP activity
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[snarfed] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/#migration
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aaronpk that page doesn't mention any of the activitypub stuff
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aaronpk that's just the user instructions specific to mastodon
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[snarfed] it references AP lightly. "Moving your account is the same as redirecting your account, but it will also irreversibly force everyone to unfollow your current account and follow your new account, if their software supports the Move activity."
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[snarfed] searching https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ for Move activity doesn't turn up anything obvious
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aaronpk some part of it requires the destination account links to the source account, but it's not clear on what that actually means
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[manton] I assumed that you have to add an alias in the old account and new account, to verify they’re owned by the same person. And then I guess Mastodon sends “Move” to every follower, asking their instance to unfollow/re-follow.
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[snarfed] [manton]++ that's right, those were the two distinct parts. 1) bidirectional alias to confirm intent, kind of like rel-me. then, 2) if you want to migrate, and not just point to each other, you click that button
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Loqi [manton] has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (32 in all channels)
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[snarfed] (I used that to migrate from mastodon.technology to indieweb.social)
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aaronpk what's the step of creating an alias? is that described somewhere?
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[snarfed] "Profile redirect" section: https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/#redirect
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aaronpk right, but what does that actually do
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aaronpk in the activitypub sense
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[snarfed] Oh, no clue, maybe nothing AP
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aaronpk my question was how do i move from mastodon to not-mastodon
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[snarfed] Got it, good q
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[manton] I was wrong about WebFinger… It
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[manton] Er… It’s in the ActivityPub JSON under the field “alsoKnownAs”
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[manton] See this response where I added indieweb.social as a test alias: curl -H “Accept: application/activity+json” “https://mastodon.social/users/manton”
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Loqi Manton Reece
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aaronpk lol thanks slack for turning those into curly quotes
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[manton] Sigh.
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barnaby brb gonna draft a new F-JSON (fancy JSON) spec which requires well-matched curly quotes
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[manton] I think I’m still missing something, though, because I tried adding an alias to my M.b-powered ActivityPub to Mastodon and it “worked” but the JSON didn’t change to add it.
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[manton] @barnaby Haha.
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[manton] (Must be alias caching.)
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[snarfed] [manton]++ for empirical testing
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aaronpk ok so far my understanding is both profiles need the `alsoKnownAs` JSON field pointing at each other, then the source account sends out a Move activity (what does that actually look like) to all the followers
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aaronpk someone who receives that Move activity would be able to look up the profile to verify the `alsoKnownAs` and then follow the new account
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[manton] Wonder if Move is documented anywhere, or is the next step to fake a move and print out the JSON?
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[manton] A lot of my ActivityPub implementation was just looking at what Mastodon does. The docs never really added up.
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[snarfed] looks like it's here: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/blob/main/spec/lib/activitypub/activity/move_spec.rb
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[jacky] `alsoKnownAs` sounds a bit `rel=me` -y
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[snarfed] yup
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gRegor Re: exports, indiebookclub's HTML export matches the site, so shows "Visibility:" then emoji 🔒 for private, 👻 unlisted.
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gRegor So it would take some manual work with the export to make sure you don't accidentally make a private one public
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aaronpk i had this same problem with my Flickr export tool
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aaronpk it turns your whole flickr account into a static site, but there's no good way to separate out the private/friends/family visibility in that model
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sknebel providing a postprocess command might make sense
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sknebel that deletes posts based on criteria
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aaronpk the problem is i don't even know what I *want* to have happen for the flickr case
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aaronpk I guess I want to complete sites, one with only the public photos that I can post somewhere, and one with everything that only I can access
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sknebel right, which is why the idea with having a defined way of removing private stuff from a full copy
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sknebel (if it generates the full static site and not input into an SSG I guess "just delete the private folder" doesnt work)
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gRegor Makes me realize I should probably add a title attribute with "private" and probably an mf2 property
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gRegor And maybe separate folders, that seems the safest
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[tantek] [manton] is the "tell Google not to index, etc. to make their blog more difficult to find." (AKA /unlisted) feature of micro.blog per-account or per-post?
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[schmarty] gRegor++ for 👻-posts
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Loqi gRegor has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (75 in all channels)
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[tantek] aaronpk, I feel the "don't even know what I *want* to have happen" question might need an upfront UI answer, e.g. "Export public posts" and "Export everything" (which includes protected/private posts, your contacts, etc.)
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[tantek] what is 👻
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Loqi Ghost is an an open source blogging software project written in node.js, and also a hosted silo at https://ghost.org https://indieweb.org/%F0%9F%91%BB
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[tantek] lol
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[manton] [tantek] Per blog. For individual posts, it could be faked by using categories, e.g. exclude certain categories from the home page.
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Saphire lmao
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Saphire Good one
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[tantek] micro.blog << Feature: [[unlisted]] account. Per-post [[unlisted]] support can be faked by using a category for such posts, and then excluding those categories from your home page / main stream.
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Loqi ok, I added "Feature: [[unlisted]] account. Per-post [[unlisted]] support can be faked by using a category for such posts, and then excluding those categories from your home page / main stream." to the "See Also" section of /Micro.blog https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84411&oldid=84281
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[tantek] [manton] presumably those "certain categories" posts still show up in post archives pages?
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[tantek] like daily/monthly/yearly archives
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[manton] Yeah. It’s kind of a work-around because there aren’t fully private posts… If someone wanted it hidden from everywhere, they could customize the theme’s archive page.
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[schmarty] looks like cohost has RSS feeds now. https://cohost.org/mintexists/post/283023-i-found-it
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slyduda very cool^
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[snarfed] huh, maybe more interestingly, cohost does per user subdomains, eg https://mintexists.cohost.org/
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[schmarty] yah i was struck by that as well
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slyduda even cooler!
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[jacky] wait interesting
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[jacky] see that means it might be a place to /backfeed from now
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[jacky] _and_ one could get them showing up in a /reader
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[jacky] \o/
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[schmarty] haha, yep, i can finally follow cohosters in my reader ✨
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[jacky] what is keyoxide
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Loqi Keyoxide is an open-source platform for creating and verifying "distributed online identities" using cryptographic signatures https://indieweb.org/Keyoxide
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[jacky] now to keep an idea on any changes to that project 😉
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[tantek] I feel like this is worth a re-read for anyone here who is considering actively setting something up to participate in hosting "decentralized" content for others (e.g. Mastodon or other OSS) https://rhiaro.co.uk/2016/11/decentralisation-considered-harmful
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[tantek] is anyone here also at IIW? [benatwork] [j12t]? apparently that's happening 11/15-17 and haven't heard a peep about it
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aaronpk i decided not to go this time since i just got back from IETF, but i might go to the next one
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[tantek] not seeing any chatter about it in any of the usual circles
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aaronpk i do wonder how the blockchain vibe is this time given the state of things
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[tantek] i'd like to rate such vibes from 🍿 to 🍿🍿🍿
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[jacky] HA that is a meter
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[KevinMarks] I got asked if I was at iiw on mastodon
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[KevinMarks] https://mastodon.social/@hardaway/109350965000967936
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Loqi [Francine Hardaway] @windley Was @KevinMarks there?
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[KevinMarks] Iiw day 1 grid https://mastodon.cloud/@windley/109350676753680277
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Loqi [Phil Windley] Session Wall for day 1 #iiw https://media.mastodon.cloud/media_attachments/files/109/350/674/261/176/576/original/25264c02e839d74b.jpg
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aaronpk omg web5
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[snarfed] jack dorsey's thing
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[snarfed] yeah that wall is...a lot
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aaronpk is jack there??
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[snarfed] oh I doubt it
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