[tantek]Yeah we should collect the set of specs that would benefit from an update at W3C like at least Webmention, Micropub, and a few others that should be adopted as well beyond incubated, prototyped, implemented, and ready for formal standardization with test suites etc. like IndieAuth, Microsub. Could WebSub benefit from a minor update? Errata?
[catgirlinspace]so i’m thinking of using deno+liquidjs (for templating) for building a new website that’s more indiewebified compared to my current website. does anyone have any advice on like, other ways i could do it or would this work ok?
LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "liquidjs" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "liquidjs is ____", a sentence describing the term)
[catgirlinspace]aaronpk how do you do storage for likes and bookmarks? i saw on the wiki page for p3k that text stuff is done on the file system. are likes and bookmarks the same?
Loqi[Jeff Moss] #MastoAdmin Life: Trying to optimize images and page load times and you find out that the server thumbnail gets auto converted from whatever format you give it into a .png.So a 55k .webp thumbnail grows to a 1meg .pngGive it a 300k .png thumbnail? Co...
[jamietanna]GWG or if we could at least produce spec-like structure for stable extensions, as digging through GitHub to see how to implement things isn't the nicest
[manton]I’ve been testing moving Mastodon accounts. Seems like all that is needed is knownAs aliases on the new account, and then the old account initiates moving followers. Anyone know if there is another step I’m missing?
[manton]I think I’m going to roll out my initial support for migrating _to_ Micro.blog and see how it goes. If it works well, I’ll add migrating _out_.
gRegorLove_, Nuve, gRegor, win0err and geoffo joined the channel
Loqi[Polymer Witch] 🤔 I wonder if I could have mastodon signups sync into LDAP and use that for authentication on a loomio and a wiki? It would probably require them to be added as apps via OAuth and then give some sort of authentication of account.
[manton]In my testing, knownAs from the old instance doesn’t appear necessary. By initiating the move, you’re essentially saying the same thing, but it’s not added to the JSON. Unless I missed something. I’m going to test this again.
[manton][KevinMarks] Good question… My “Move” implementation doesn’t, but maybe it should. I think I assumed that HTTP signatures were enough to verify the move request is legit.
[manton]Another part of migration that would be better with domain names is moving account A → B → C. A is not going to know about C, so the “this account has moved” isn’t totally right.
[KevinMarks][manton] that's assuming that the admin is working with the migrating user. I can see a way for an admin to eject a user to a dead end instance with this, but I suppose they could just delete them.
aaronpkthe only weird thing is most OIDC consumers expect that you have to use a preregistered client ID/secret, but you can just put in whatever you want for those that your indieauth server will recognize
aaronpkhmm the error in the gitea logs is "UserSignIn: could not find a matching session for this request" which suggests this is a lot closer to working than not
aaronpkanyway [jacky] you're going to have to implement OpenID Connect a specific way to get it to work with Gitea, or file issues to get them to do things differently with OpenID. Or get the library gitea uses to support indieauth, which would be basically ripping out a bunch of code from their openid provider
[manton]Final update on the Mastodon migration, because I have to keep correcting myself. It was a caching issue. No knownAs is needed on the old account that is moving. There is a movedTo field though.
[manton][aaronpk] I don’t see how it could be required exactly, unless servers are supposed to verify that movedTo is set when accepting a Move activity.
[tantek]^ there is that, *and* there are Mastodon-specific extensions to AP which, AFAIK have not been well documented or integrated using the supposed extension mechanism in place to enable it
[tantek]literally the excuse to make AP use/depend-on JSON-LD was that *allegedly* JSON-LD, @context, all that namespace nonsense had a functioning extensibility story.
[tantek]Some of us pushed back on that claim, e.g. asking, if that's true, can you point to any successful examples of a spec with an @context was later extended by someone else with another @context in any real products. Crickets.
[tantek]We were told to believe JSON-LD/@context extensibility would work effectively "on faith" (AKA "because we said so because we're experts"). We know how well that works out in technology (almost never).
[schmarty]haha i just went on a mental spiral of trying to solve the "if this org cares so much about a domain how did they lose it??" problem and :face_with_spiral_eyes:
[schmarty](it was like "i bet it was a single-point-of-responsibility" => "what was the org structure? / how much org structure should one expect?" => "what if there were trusts for DNS management? / what would that control look like?" => "uh oh multi-party agreement / shared passwords / abort abort / bail out bail out"
gRegor[snarfed]2, tried searching github but couldn't find an issue: are regular @-mentions supported in BF? I tried linking the @-@ in my post and also just as plain text, but it didn't show up as a notification for [Joe_Crawford]
[manton][snarfed] That example in ActivityStreams does not actually match what Mastodon sends, though! Also it doesn’t explain anything about how servers should implement it, e.g. do they need to verify a move is valid.
[snarfed]2gRegor mentions are maybe half supported. I don't parse HTML contents and send separate Mention activities for every link, if that's what you're asking
gRegorGotcha. I was thinking like with twitter they autolink @example names, but with Mastodon I'm guessing it needs an explicit 'mention' object to link the name
[tantek]snarfed, indeed, and it makes me wonder if we should write something up more formally about how to use, parse, process, notify IndieWeb @domain identities
[tantek][manton] I'm curious what use-cases are drawing your interest to BlueSky, or if it's more like an interesting science experiment to observe from a (safe) distance
IWDiscordRelay<capjamesg#4492> This may be a long shot but has anyone played around with semantic search here? I have been playing around with BERT for information retrieval and I'm impressed. IndieWeb Search hasn't been returning useful results for a while so I thought about a semantic search approach. It's not quite working as expected.
[manton][tantek] Mostly a science experiment. I’ve also been wondering if it could be a federated backup plan if ActivityPub doesn’t work out (scaling problems or identity problems).
[tantek]E.g. [manton] I'd be curious what you think of this "How to" section and if that aligns with what you think of as "federated" or "federating", and if not, what's missing and/or what doesn’t match up from your perspective (and in comparison to ActivityPub)
[manton]I worry a little that “federation” as a word is being redefined with the Mastodon interest. To me, it implies more of multi-user sites connecting to each other, vs. the IndieWeb’s focus more on true distribution: individual single-user sites (domains) connecting.
[manton]From my perspective with Micro.blog, my stuff will always be IndieWeb-first. But I like layering on other APIs where I can for compatibility, and that’s how I’ve been viewing ActivityPub.
[tantek]hmm even the OpenID page itself still talks about OpenID1/2 as "current" when it really should be updated to document it as a past thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID
[tantek]aaronpk how can OID federation mean anything meaningful now since there’s no guarantee or even strong encouragement of OIDC “identities” working across systems.
[snarfed]2entertaining side effect of Bridgy Fed's new monitoring, I can see mastodon.technology suddenly start sending out Delete activities for all of its users since it's shutting down. https://snarfed.org/mastodon-technology.png
[manton][KevinMarks] I just randomly noticed some mastodon.technology deletes today too… I did not expect they would actually do that. Most Mastodon instances just go away quietly.
[manton]Wonder if that is considered best practice and what if an instance has 1 million users? Would they really send out 1 million deletes? Seems kind of nutty.
[manton]Yeah. I think my biggest concern is the potential flakiness when a server is temporarily down… Do you retry sending the activity, and if so, how long, and how often? I expect some things are just lost.
cambridgeport90[I'm just curious, though. Who would want to have their Mastodon (or any fediverse account) configured like that? What would be the point... after all, the web is meant for interactions and to be viewed. Having a server run like that... just seems to open the door to more proprietary-ness, so to speak. I can't find a better word. Can anyone explain what I think I'm missing?
[fluffy]I definitely feel like polling+websub is the way to go if you want anything to scale. Mastodon has had SO MANY historical issues due to how push retry works, and the lack of any sort of pull-based backfilling.
aaronpkfor all the people complaining about how mastodon causes 100s of requests to a URL to fetch the link preview, at least setting up a web server to handle a bunch of GET requests is relatively straightforward
[tantek] Yeah we should collect the set of specs that would benefit from an update at W3C like at least Webmention, Micropub, and a few others that should be adopted as well beyond incubated, prototyped, implemented, and ready for formal standardization with test suites etc. like IndieAuth, Microsub. Could WebSub benefit from a minor update? Errata?
[catgirlinspace] so i’m thinking of using deno+liquidjs (for templating) for building a new website that’s more indiewebified compared to my current website. does anyone have any advice on like, other ways i could do it or would this work ok?
[KevinMarks] I don't know either of those, sorry. I like nunjucks for templates, though they tempt me to put more logic in the template side sometimes.
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "liquidjs" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "liquidjs is ____", a sentence describing the term)
gRegor Is that same as https://indieweb.org/Liquid?
[snarfed] [catgirlinspace] https://indieweb.org/p3k#Indexing_and_Caching
[jamietanna] GWG or if we could at least produce spec-like structure for stable extensions, as digging through GitHub to see how to implement things isn't the nicest
aaronpk anyway [jacky] you're going to have to implement OpenID Connect a specific way to get it to work with Gitea, or file issues to get them to do things differently with OpenID. Or get the library gitea uses to support indieauth, which would be basically ripping out a bunch of code from their openid provider
[schmarty] haha i just went on a mental spiral of trying to solve the "if this org cares so much about a domain how did they lose it??" problem and :face_with_spiral_eyes:
[manton] Maybe for that wiki page, there should be a separate page at /fediverse instead of redirecting. Hmm.