#dev 2023-01-04
2023-01-04 UTC
# 
AramZ-S[m] Do I need a token endpoint to log into the wiki?
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aaronpk oh wait i am thinking one step ahead. the current version still uses the authorization endpoint to verify the authorization codes https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/#redeeming-the-authorization-code
# AramZ-S[m] I tried to use selfauth with it, if it isn't using tokens that should work right?
# AramZ-S[m] hmmm... still not working. Just copy and pasted the right files in and pasted in the config as specified
# AramZ-S[m] I get
# AramZ-S[m] Not Acceptable!
# AramZ-S[m] An appropriate representation of the requested resource could not be found on this server. This error was generated by Mod_Security.
# AramZ-S[m] ugh ok
# AramZ-S[m] Bluehost... so cheap yet so crappy
# AramZ-S[m] Yeah, but I want to get the endpoints working on my site :D
# AramZ-S[m] ahha
# AramZ-S[m] the example is literally bluehost
# AramZ-S[m] lol
# AramZ-S[m] I need to change my host one of these days but they are so cheap
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[snarfed] AramZ-S are they stripping the Authorization header? we see that somewhat regularly. some details in https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieauth/#i%20keep%20getting%20the%20response%20that%20my%20request%20is%20unauthorized , ignore the Wordpress parts
# [snarfed] oh nm, Not Acceptable sounds like HTTP 406/conneg, probably an Accept header mismatch. try https://indieweb.org/Apache#HTTP_406_Not_Acceptable_Error
# AramZ-S[m] Hmmm might be that too
# AramZ-S[m] I think, judging from some of the comments on mod_security, that this might be a bluehost specific problem with their configuration of mod_security.
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[tantek] ok who wants to answer this one, aaronpk? [snarfed]? since you've both implemented both sides of both: https://social.lol/@bix/109628767717498985
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Loqi [preview] [Bix :dotted_line_face:] Question out of sheer ignorance for #IndieWeb folks: why is there both ActivityPub and Webmention? And, I guess all these other things, to boot?https://www.w3.org/TR/social-web-protocols/
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[KevinMarks] !standards
# [KevinMarks] That's not quite right as we got it down from 20 or so to 2
# [KevinMarks] And Amy's document is missing the Webfinger entanglement too
# [tantek] [KevinMarks] you're very close (rounding error or digits of precision 😉 ) https://indieweb.org/Social_Web_Working_Group#History (~17 down to 2.5)
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# [tantek] looks like people are seeing the version with the typo, rather than the fixed version. e.g. boosted here: https://digitalstuntfactory.com/@paul (see "choosen" [sic])
# [tantek] !tell [snarfed] I found https://fed.brid.gy/docs#update and pretty sure I sent a webmention from my updated post to get it to update, however, I also updated the slug of the post (and thus URL), yet supported redirecting from the previous slug URL. Does Bridgy Fed accept an updated post with a new permalink slug?
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# [snarfed] you can see them both on https://digitalstuntfactory.com/@tantek.com@tantek.com
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# [Rick] 20 of those were me admiring it. 🙂
# [snarfed] The delete flow is safer and easier on the server side, agreed. FYI though BF doesn't support wm -> AP deletes yet. Someday! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/30
# [KevinMarks] I think that's CTHULU
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# Loqi WordPress Plugins are recommended plugins that can help make your site more IndieWeb friendly https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins
# [tantek] I see eight here as "common" plugins: https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#Common_Plugins_Summary
# [snarfed] the idea is at least 6y old 😆 https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/112
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starrwulfe[m] As a newcomer into this area and very much wanting to evangelize getting sites set up to go IW, Wordpress offers the least amount of friction to the average slightly technical person to do so; the less amount of work in the form of installing a plugin to install more plugins, the better.
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# starrwulfe[m] I actually did fresh WP installs twice over the last 3 days with the plugins and while not that much of a hassle for me to set up, I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I’d like to get it to a point where the same person installing the contact form plugin can also do this without sweating bullets. Part of that could be just massaging the documentation into layman’s terms or providing some screenshots somewhere. I’m willing to
# starrwulfe[m] help in these areas if needed.
# starrwulfe[m] Once I get things into their mostly final state on my site, I intend to do some tutorials on how I got it set up.
# starrwulfe[m] Did you want to revisit them in 2023?
# starrwulfe[m] Any one of them. Just curious if you felt like there was something you wanted to refactor or iterate on in a new plugin
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[schmarty] arethepluginsmergedyet dot com? :}
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barnaby does wordpress have any concept of plugin bundles? Or put another way, if it’s still more convenient to work on the plugins separately, would it also be possible to have some sort of build process which compiled them all into one plugin which people can install and get everything at the same time?
# starrwulfe[m] [tantek]: I had this problem the first time.
# starrwulfe[m] I missed a plugin. Herein lies the step-by-step and ELI5 documentation that could solve for that problem.
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[pfefferle] I am currently not the bottleneck I think
# [pfefferle] And having no code review is not really a solution I think
# [pfefferle] And I also invested a lot in webmentions the last year!
# [pfefferle] Yes, sorry!
# [pfefferle] And there was a reason to have the two plugins separated!
# [pfefferle] I thought about having webmentions part of the core and I see no change to have it in core with all the semantic linkbacks stuff
# [pfefferle] But as Matt announced canonical plugins it makes sense to have them combined
# [pfefferle] And I also searched for options to invest even more in the IndieWeb and I think I found a solution but can’t talk about that before April
# [pfefferle] Always!
# [pfefferle] The more the better!
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GWG Comment if you want...https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/issues/232
# [pfefferle] I am still against merging plugins, because it does not solve the issue, that we are not really good with UI/UX and onboarding! And it does only work agains the symptoms. And I still want to build things for myself that will also work for others and I am no fan of big monoliths that install things I do not need/want. Yes, we need a plan how to explain plugins and usage. Let’s take the Microformats 2 plugin as an example… it mi
# [pfefferle] help some, but only if the theme does not support it natively… so bundling it does not help here… Yes we could discuss about bundling micropub with indieauth (from the IndieWeb perspective) but I think there is more chance to push single purpose plugins in the WordPress ecosystem, like having the indieauth plugin as an canonical version of api authentication, which it might not become of it comes with publish endpoints…
# [pfefferle] But is this really the conclusion? Or is it that they struggle with the plugins?
# [pfefferle] Bundling them does not make them easier
# [pfefferle] And as I said not everyone need everything (Microformats 2)
# [pfefferle] True!
# [pfefferle] Yes, but I am also one of these users!!!
# [tantek] [pfefferle] this blog post resonated with a lot of other WordPress users: https://kevquirk.com/removing-support-for-the-indieweb/ it's not just "one user"
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gRegor TIL about the canonical plugins idea https://wptavern.com/matt-mullenweg-renews-push-for-canonical-plugins
# [pfefferle] It is not always easy to read these discussions!
# [pfefferle] I understand all of your points and if would be my business, no problem! But it is my spare time and I invested really a lot of time building these plugins! But the only drive I currently have is, that they are ALSO for me and my strong feelings to be/stay indie!
# [pfefferle] I think UX/UI is not my problem
# [pfefferle] Change whatever you want
# [pfefferle] It is the monolith stuff!
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# [pfefferle] But GWG and I worked a lot on that! There are only some small steps missing!
# IWDiscordRelay <capjamesg#4492> This was a good listen: https://www.theverge.com/23506085/wordpress-twitter-tumblr-ceo-matt-mullenweg-elon-musk
# [pfefferle] 😂
# [pfefferle] The problem is, that these last two parts are not trivial! It’s the migration of the old persistence and the comment representation
# [pfefferle] And SL was very hacky, so we want to do things right… finally!
# [pfefferle] I will be the best Webmention implementation ever and I already had discussions getting it into core or similar stuff
# [pfefferle] We had a really nice hackathon on the cloudfest last year, to work on the onboarding btw.
# [pfefferle] Maybe with google translate https://notiz.blog/2022/04/03/cloudfest-2022-hackathon-indieweb-for-wordpress/
# [pfefferle] And maybe I have to be more communicative here and in the wiki!
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# [Rick] Outsider, but WP user, chiming in. I don't mind installing 7 plugins as long as I know what they do and why I would want them. I've seen several plugins where once activated, they have a note with something like, "Hey you probably should get these plugins for additional features and here's why".
# starrwulfe It's all in the documentation in other words. I agree.
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# [Mike_Little] New lurker chiming in: I don’t know the full story behind this discussion, so I can’t comment on the specific idea of combining plugins. However, I will point out that after 11 years the mega plugin Jetpack ( a plugin that grew from about 10 modules to over 45) has finally decided to start breaking it up. https://jetpack.com/blog/build-your-own-jetpack-now-with-individual-plugins/ And this is with full paid team behind it. T
# [Mike_Little] decision does seem to be about allowing people to just use the parts they want, and frankly the first 5 pieces they have split off, should never have been anything but standalone. Still, food for thought.
# starrwulfe I would also say IndieAuth should go in there or at least be merged with MicroPub because how else would you log into a third party editor?
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# starrwulfe True. I wish there was some way to link dependencies together in the plug-in world in this case
# starrwulfe Maybe just a simple "If you want to do this, then you need these" kind of wording during onboarding?
# [KevinMarks] Something like the indiewebify.me progression (not that exactly, but a walk through of "now you can do this - test it, next you could try this"
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# [pfefferle] There is a featured project for plugin dependencies https://github.com/WordPress/wp-plugin-dependencies
# [tantek] It does seem like there’s a logical clustering of IndieWeb+IndieAuth+Micropub (a bunch of things that primarily benefit the author/owner of the blog, without a visible effect to readers of the blog), and Webmentions+SemanticLinkbacks+SyndicationLinks (a bunch of things that make cross-site comments work and look good)
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# starrwulfe grrr... Anybody use Sparkle as their micropub editor?
# [tantek] looks like that worked! I just checked the first boost of that post according to Bridgy Fed, and it's been updated to fix the typo: https://digitalstuntfactory.com/@paul (you have to scroll a while to see it, which, if you’re seeing this in chat archives later, will likely be futile)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Sparkles" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Sparkles is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# starrwulfe Sparkles is a micropub client. You can create posts from here to add to your micropub compatible website.
# starrwulfe For more detailed information about sparkles, read the announcement post.
# starrwulfe Built with MithrilJS, SCSS, and FontAwesome. Deployed to Netlify.
# starrwulfe copypasta from their about page. I'll clean it up in a bit
# starrwulfe Thanx
# starrwulfe gRegor: yeah, I was unable to get the Movie post kind to play nice with my wordpress site. The movie poster graphic and text for the content block didn't come out correctly for some reason.
# starrwulfe I've got a post type "watched" I could set it to https://starrwulfe.xyz/1243-2/
# starrwulfe (that was a manual version I did an hour ago for a test)
# starrwulfe Wait, there's an HWC for us tonight? I'll try to test RSVPs again in that case if I can find the post on the site...
# gRegor There's an iCal feed on events.indieweb.org, and even for tag pages like https://events.indieweb.org/tag/hwc
# starrwulfe yeah, I need to sub to the calendar so I can stop bugging y'all here with inane questions and instead do it in Zoom 😅
# starrwulfe True-- and it's less ephemeral; somebody will see it eventually.
# starrwulfe OOPS!!
# starrwulfe And the everpresent Loqi has eyes all over
# starrwulfe (good bot)
# starrwulfe Thanks-- I want to change the CSS up on my site at some point of course, but I'm just working on plumbing and troubleshooting a few errors at the moment.
# starrwulfe thanks++
# starrwulfe Thanks++
# starrwulfe Can I not give karma back? (seriously why *that* as a handle?!)
# starrwulfe OK, I'll try not to use emdashes here.
# starrwulfe ROFL
# starrwulfe We need to go to #../meta and get to the bottom of the whole common words as user handles shenanegans
# [KevinMarks] Real—emdashes++
# [KevinMarks] That does depend on what loqi thinks is a word separator, yes
# starrwulfe [KevinMarks]: Loqi is going to make a diff view now.
# starrwulfe What is meetable?
# Loqi Meetable is an IndieWeb friendly open source events aggregator that is used for the IndieWeb events site at https://events.indieweb.org https://indieweb.org/Meetable
# starrwulfe Awesome.
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "most creative use cases we have for Webmention" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "most creative use cases we have for Webmention is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# IWDiscordRelay <capjamesg#4492> gRegor I don't think that redirect is quite right.
# IWDiscordRelay <capjamesg#4492> Can you elaborate re: the Webmention and Brid.gy thing?
# Loqi Bridgy is an open source project and proxy that implements backfeed and POSSE as a service https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Publish
# starrwulfe How are you handling follows?
# starrwulfe * wonders if he should switch from the plugin to bridgy.fed
# starrwulfe In my case, my site is my Mastodon account.
# starrwulfe I'm trying out the AP plugin on wordpress, it works well, but the Friends plugin for handling follows is sketch-town. I want to speak with its dev or someone who uses it at least
# starrwulfe If I could get BF to handle only follows, DMs and other inbox stuff and let the other stuff work for outbox stuff...
# starrwulfe (technically there are no DMs in AP, just very unlisted one to one posts)
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# 
[0x3b0b] Just as an anecdotal data point...speaking as a software developer (who did not want to do much "developing" for the purpose) with some sysadmin-adjacent experience, and who has worked extensively with PHP (including Wordpress, although not all that much) and very little with Python, I was WAY less intimidated by installing microblogpub (which is written in Python) than by the idea of setting up wordpress and plugins.
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