#dev 2023-01-06

2023-01-06 UTC
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[tantek] I have updated my archive org save code to use Curl w/o an explicitly specified Accept header (was using application/json) so I'll see if it works with the next post I make
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gRegor Re: the conversation in main, just found this API that returns *if* there is an archive.org version or not. Could be helpful if trying to automate link replacement. https://archive.org/help/wayback_api.php
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gRegor Includes options to specify timestamp and will return the closest snapshot
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barnaby [tantek]++, we eagerly await the results of your testing :)
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Loqi [tantek] has 21 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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@mojitane ↩️ Its funny that I did write much less during the last years because of "talking into the void" syndrome and at the same time felt huge pressure to put out super polished content. Wrote a bit about setting up inspired by Adam http://moji.blog/article/webmentions-intro Next is FE display of mentions (twitter.com/_/status/1611182486532362242)
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[tantek] barnaby, gRegor, looks like not setting Accept: header in PHP curl call worked: https://tantek.com/2023/005/t1/quad-over-ice links to a 2008-era tweet of mine which was only Internet Archived seconds ago (by my code presumably)
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] “I need a quad over ice.” 📺 #Wednesday E1 34:17 Ah, my 2008-era coffee order, just darker (no surprise) https://twitter.com/t/status/920915648 Feeling seen. (Aside: 💁🏻‍♂️🦋 Is this a quote tweet?)
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[tantek] [manton] did you *just* fix handling line-breaks from Atom feeds syndicated into micro.blog?!? Most most recent post (minutes ago) has them, while my post from last night does not! https://micro.blog/t
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[pfefferle] [tantek] I just read https://kevquirk.com/removing-support-for-the-indieweb/
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[pfefferle] Yes he mentioned that he has to install 7 plugins, but he also says that he only sees value in webmentions, so it is not a bad idea to have them separated, but we do a poor job explaining people why they are separated and which plugin the need for which usecase and that they do not have to install all of them. Besides of that, he mentioned that „no one is using it, so I think he would have removed them anyways even if it was onl
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[pfefferle] one plugin!
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starrwulfe[m] Other than the plugin issues, In order to get people to use it, he would have to use it as an “early adopter” and kinda evangelize. Especially as an admin of a major mastodon instance, he’s in a good position if he made it part of his workflow.
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[TMichelleMoore] [pfefferle] starrwulfe[m] [tantek] I read the article also. It might have been good for him to mention this from the IndieWeb.org site - “When you post something on the web, it should belong to you, not a corporation. Too many companies have gone out of business and lost all of their users’ data. By joining the IndieWeb, your content stays yours and in your control.” After asking you all many questions, I don’t think
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[TMichelleMoore] actually convoluted. The only area I might agree with him in is that it is a little complicated to get up and running and I use WordPress, I am not a developer. So convoluted not, complicated somewhat, and that could be because there are multiple choices. I personally am making a chart to see where things actually fit, but even with that chart things may change based on mergers of plugins, etc.
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rubenwardy I implemented microformat recently and it was a huge pain, it's not very well documented
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rubenwardy the experience of setting up indieweb is reading fragmented documentation that lies to you, claiming things work that don't
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rubenwardy I can see how someone would get easily frustrated
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starrwulfe[m] [TMichelleMoore]: Be interesting to see your chart when you’re done and propose something if needed
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starrwulfe[m] rubenwardy: what are your pain points?
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rubenwardy I posted in here a few months ago, it was a huge pain to get author information to work correctly when marking up posts
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rubenwardy I ended up duplicating author information into each post, the wiki page did claim that you could use a URL as an id and just have it in the header/footer though
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rubenwardy This algorithm doesn't appear to be followed: https://indieweb.org/authorship-spec#Algorithm
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rubenwardy this doesn't work: https://indieweb.org/authorship#Author_information_in_a_header_or_footer
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rubenwardy https://indiewebify.me/ and a md2 validator is probably the only reason I was able to get anything done
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rubenwardy I'm very much in the early adopter category though and have high tolerance for this stuff
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barnaby your patience is appreciated rubenwardy, we made a bunch of documentation improvements based on your experiences
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rubenwardy indiewebify is awesome, wish more things had guides like that
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barnaby authorship is definitely a case where a lot of consumers don’t thoroughly implement the algorithm due to its complexity, which funnels publishers towards certain forms of markup if they want their data to work with the maximum number of different projects
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I can’t promise anything but I’m thinking about making a few IndieWeb tutorials on YouTube.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Inspiration for topics to cover would be greatly appreciated!
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barnaby not sure what the best approach to dealing with this is — it might be interesting to review data on both authorship publishing patterns and algorithm support. If there’s a simpler subset of functionality which is being used vastly more often, then it could make sense to prune the algorithm down to that, and recommend the more niche approaches as fallback with the caveat that they might not be supported by everyone
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starrwulfe Not sure why my other comment didn't flow across from matrix...
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starrwulfe I think what's needed is also an "official" validator that is part of the step-by-step instructions. Most devs have to run unit tests before packaging for bigger programs after all... This should be no different IMHO.
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barnaby in theory that’s what indiewebify.me is for, but it doesn’t have validators for everything
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barnaby some already exist elsewhere like webmention.rocks and micropub.rocks
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barnaby I started to collect specific suggestions for improving indiewebify.me here, feel free to add to it! https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues
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rubenwardy With standards like authorship, you want a reference implementation and some way to test compliance
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starrwulfe A major headache for me has been the scattered nature of all the documentation, examples and testing sites. As this is an ever changing and evolving beast, the tests and docs should go hand in hand.
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rubenwardy yeah that's what I meant by fragmentation
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barnaby there’s https://authorship.rocks/ for testing authorship algorithm implementations
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barnaby and I vaguely remember that someone made a validator for published authorship data
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barnaby I think it was Zegnat or sknebel?
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barnaby ah here it is https://sturdy-backbone.glitch.me/
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barnaby it’s a bit bare-bones, but it shows exactly which path through the algorithm was followed
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barnaby [tantek]: you’re the editor of /authorship, any objections to adding https://sturdy-backbone.glitch.me/ to “Test Suite” as a test for publishers? And noting that authorship.rocks is a test suite for consumers?
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barnaby with the plan that we replace it with a more user-friendly version at indiewebify.me or authorship.rocks at some point, but I think it makes sense to link to it for the moment just to have something there
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barnaby I guess it’s already linked at https://indieweb.org/authorship#Validate, but we’ve seen that this fragmentation leads to headaches so IMO it’d be worth linking in both places
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barnaby rubenwardy: were you able to find https://sturdy-backbone.glitch.me/ when trying to validate your authorship markup?
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rubenwardy yes
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[tantek] good suggestion barnaby, added sturdy-*** as a validator
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> Ugh, I keep banging my head on this problem, but for some reason, my site can't seem to send outgoing mail. Not sure if this is the place for this, but this itch is about to be a serious dealbreaker.
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> blindnerd[d] do you know where in the stack that the problem is happening at?
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IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> Does it work in a testing env with something like Mailhog?
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> the stack I was, emphasis on was using was the official stack script from Linode for Wordpress, which uses sendmail, and it kept claiming it couldn't find the user to send it to, so I think I'll need to roll my own stack
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[jacky] not sure if I showed https://retroachievements.org/ in here before
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[jacky] but I _am_ still looking to get more (video) game info onto my site and this site could be a great place for backfeed from older games that don't have leaderboards or achievemenets
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barnaby looks cool
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[jacky] heh yeah
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[jacky] I'm hoping to include some sort of recap when I build my chronological archives (mainly the weekly, monthly and yearly views, I'm considering making my daily one the basis of what my /now page is with some manual content I add in as a daily prompt)
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> aaronpk Anything going on with Telegraph? I sent 3 webmentions and they are all pending an hour or so later.
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aaronpk oh weird
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aaronpk looks like it all quit
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aaronpk should be starting again
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> It's working now. Thanks!
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> Well, that's a step in the right direction... got mail to send out to email addresses that don't end in my domain using Postfix set up to forward mail to the service I have my domain tied to, but can't send out email to myself, so may have to use my Gmail address as an admin email til I can diagnose the issue. Baby steps... now to grab MariaDB and install/configure that
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> So, when I used the Linode stack script, it installed PHP 8.1.2, but I am wondering for better compatibility if I should install PHP 7.4 instead? Opinions?
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[schmarty] blindnerd: that totally depends on your needs. if you are writing your own stuff, PHP 8.1 is the oldest supported version right now (personally, that is a nightmare). if you're running other folks' projects, installing PHP 7.4 might make things easier to get running.
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> I'd be using the IndieWeb plugins, and there were some issues with 8.1.2, so I was thinking of using 7.4 for a hopefully smoother experience
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barnaby [schmarty]: curious what you mean about 8.1 being a nightmare?
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[schmarty] barnaby: it's the death of 7.4 that is my nightmare
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[schmarty] _the churn_
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barnaby most of my projects support back to 7.3, but I wouldn’t use anything older than 7.4 for new stuff
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barnaby ah I see
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barnaby yeah, I go out of my way to write code compatible back to at least 7.4 if not 7.3, and have a GH actions test matrix set up to guarantee that they all work
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barnaby it gets more complicated when dependencies are involved though
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barnaby I have to turn off strict types in some test cases to allow mock objects to work with multiple PHP version’s worth of external dependencies
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[schmarty] heads up to folks running php stuff on arm64 (like amazon's arm-based EC2 instances, or M1/M2-based macs) https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/10187
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Loqi [preview] [todeveni] #10187 Segfault in stripslashes() with arm64
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[schmarty] this has been patched for 8.1 and 8.2 and will show up in a future release, but so far has not been backported to 8.0 or further. 😅
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> Okay, got the basics up and going again using PHP 7.4.3.3 this time. Crossing my fingers and hoping this will be a smoother experience. Still got some PHP tweaks to do, but I need a break.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Congrats!
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capjamesg https://xavd.id/blog/post/mastodon-verification-and-you/
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aaronpk will someone tell me how mastodon actually does the verification because my website still isn't showing up as verified
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> Are you on Wordpress? If so there's two ways to accomplish it quite easily. One is the IndieWeb plugin, which offers a field to input the URL in your profile, and the other is using a plugin called Simple Mastodon Verification, which offers a field on the General settings page. One will require you to add the HCard widget to your site, while the other does it as a meta tag in your site's header on the homepage.
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[tw2113_Slack_] i think they do a scan of the page to see if you have linked to your mastodon profile
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[tw2113_Slack_] like it needs a literal `<a>` link
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IWDiscordRelay <b​lindnerd#6539> it does
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[manton] The code seems like it allows either `a` or `link`… Unless it’s buggy. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/blob/daf6f3453e2a37db3d9a8362d64106b6c7cf0763/app/services/verify_link_service.rb#L29
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sknebel aaronpk: have you sent profile updates changing/setting it?
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aaronpk yeah, and i can see the changes happening, but it never seems to go crawl to confirm
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[tw2113_Slack_] if they allow <link rel /> then I may be able to resolve one of my sites 😄
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[tw2113_Slack_] i just added via `<link>` and will check back later
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[tw2113_Slack_] aaronpk try editing your mastodon profile and just hit save
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[tw2113_Slack_] that seemed to verify me
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[snarfed] [tw2113_Slack_] he doesn't have a Mastodon account, it's literally his web site via AP. that's what makes this hard
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[tw2113_Slack_] ah
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[tantek] aaronpk, I don't think Mastodon supports cross-instance verification
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[tantek] like people's profiles only look/show "verified" on their instance
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[snarfed] oh that'
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[snarfed] 's true
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[tantek] aaronpk, I think you just need a ✅ on your home page 😄
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[tantek] and in your header on permalinks e.g. "Aaron Parecki ✅ "
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Zegnat I feel like I have seen a bunch of personal blogs where people have been adding Twitter(-esque) verified marks behind their names in headers ... should have documented those maybe
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gRegor indieweb verified
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[tantek] joking aside, this is something a few of us brainstormed many years ago that could be done with indexing the rel=met network
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[snarfed] https://www.kevinmarks.com/distributed-verify.html
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Loqi [preview] Distributed Verification 2016-09-22
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[KevinMarks] They do show as verified in other instances for me
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[KevinMarks] (not Aaron's but other mastodon profiles viewed via my instance)
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[snarfed] hmm not for me. eg https://indieweb.social/@snarfed is but https://mastodon.art/@snarfed@indieweb.social isn't. (I'm logged into both instances)
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Loqi [preview] Ryan Barrett
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sknebel no, it definitively supports that for remote accounts
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[snarfed] interesting, ok
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[schmarty] could your instance's user metadata endpoints return some extra JSON that says which links are verified? 😂
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[schmarty] (jkjkjk)
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[snarfed] I vaguely remember that each instance might do its own verification? which would explain my mismatch
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[snarfed] lol [schmarty] I think they do
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[schmarty] 🙈
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[snarfed] or because my site no longer rel-me links to that account 😎
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sknebel yes, the verification is per instance
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[KevinMarks] As it is checked async
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aaronpk no no if you look at someone else's mastodon profile from your instance your instance will show their website link as verified
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[KevinMarks] Yes, if it has checked it previously
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aaronpk tho now that i am trying to verify that, i am not seeing that behavior
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aaronpk ok weird some remote profiles show me verified and some don't
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aaronpk wait no i just got confused about which window i was looking at
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aaronpk ok maybe cross-instance verified checks aren't a thing?
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[KevinMarks] They are for other mastodon instances, nor sure about non-mastodon ones
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sknebel right, I guess the question is "what does mastodon use to decide to check them"
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aaronpk i'm not seeing it
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aaronpk maybe only if someone on the instance is following them?
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[KevinMarks] I'm following you on xoxo.zone but you're not verified
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[tantek] capjamesg, or was it barnaby, which of you said you were auto-archiving links using the Internet Archive? Add yourself if you are! https://indieweb.org/Internet_Archive#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk i know it's not showing up verified, that's the whole point 🙃
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