#dev 2023-03-14

2023-03-14 UTC
IWSlackGateway, [KevinMarks], geoffo, petermolnar, IWDiscordRelay, mouse[d], gRegor, [pfefferle] and [tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] looks like my POSSE code on my server and my API access still works: https://twitter.com/t/status/1635430544560500738
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@t Blog as if there’s an #AI being trained^1 to be you based on your blog posts. And what if it was trained on your Universal Outbox^2? #IndieWeb #OpenAI #ChatGPT This is day 34 of #100DaysOfIndieWeb #100Days ← Day 33: https://tantek.com/2023/051/t1/five-years-ago-w3c-social-web → ... https://tantek.com/t5Pp1 (twitter.com/_/status/1635430544560500738)
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[tantek] ironically, it seems like my Bridgy Fed webmention (at ~17:00 PDT) didn't go through or rather there was no evidence of it working on https://fed.brid.gy/user/tantek.com
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[tantek] I did just use Mention.Tech to send a Webmention to BF manually like a minute or so ago and that claimed to have succeeded
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[tantek] And just now I can see it on that BF dashboard link
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[chrisbergr] If I want to use hidden mf2 data e.g. inside an h-entry, which element would you recommend? meta, data, span with display none, something else?
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prologic Put it on the element that is the entry itself
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prologic See for example how I do it for Yarn pods like twtxt.net
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[chrisbergr] You're using id on your h-entry elements. I'm talking about e.g. p-name, there are some views I don't want to display the name but I want to include it in the code for some mf2 parsers.
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[tantek] Nope. Putting data (priority values) for an entry on an entry itself will not ever work in practice with anything non trivial like something with a date published. This is an FAQ.
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[tantek] In general it's discouraged to put anything hidden into microformats. Would need to see the actual practical use-case.
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[tantek] In theory the answer should always be "no" to how do I put hidden data in microformats. So in practice, show the practical use case first
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[chrisbergr] Oh I understand. It's a design choice to not display post title for notes (because they are designed like a twitter card). I wanted to include the post title "invisible" for the sake of completeness
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GWG [chrisbergr]: I always considered not a title for notes because they are so short, why do you need to see one?
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[chrisbergr] GWG I don't want them to be "seen". But I always (*mostly) set one for the clarity in the wp admin posts list.
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[snarfed] [tantek] just fyi BF didn't get a webmention from you at 17:00p PT. the only one for your site in the last 24h is the 18:00p one from mention.tech
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[snarfed] iirc that's happened with your site before
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GWG [chrisbergr]: I tried to change the display for empty titles to a summary in the post admin for the reason.
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[snarfed] [chrisbergr] the other dangerous part of eg a hidden p-name is that post type discovery uses the presence of a p-name to distinguish articles from notes
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[snarfed] so if you do it, mf2 parsers will interpret your notes as articles, which will result in unpleasant surprises
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[chrisbergr] Oh, then of course I should dismiss the idea. Did not see this comming as one of the possible concequences.
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[snarfed] (fwiw I'm on WordPress too and omit post titles on my notes, replies, likes, etc. they show up as "(no title)" in WP admin, which isn't ideal, but is manageable)
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GWG [snarfed]: I have code for that.
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[chrisbergr] I'll continue use post titles, I have 2 dashboard widgets telling me which posts do need translation and which ones have missing categories. Those would be not managable without titles 🙂 - But of course, I'll stop trying to print them anywhere in the frontend.
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[tantek] Thanks [snarfed]. I'll work on adding some more instrumentation to my webmentions sending code to track it down further.
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Ruxton GWG / [snarfed]: was gonna say that's an easy fix and was sure there was a patch into one of GWG's plugins to display an excerpt for kinds that have no title
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GWG Ruxton: I could extract that for other people who don't Kind
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Ruxton you COULD, but i'd argue its a post kinds thing, if they're not using it, it's a few lines in functions.php, it really just boils down to: no title? gimme the excerpt instead.
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GWG Ruxton: It's a bit more, but yes.. I was thinking of a snippet
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Ruxton GWG: you could always just link the code https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/blob/trunk/includes/class-kind-taxonomy.php#L393
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Ruxton I think how the wiki handles users/auth is broken, there is no way to move my auth without renaming my user. I dont think this is an IndieAuth spec issue, but rather how we've implemented users/auth on the wiki. It's built from a user=uri, uri never moves perspective and that's just not the reality of longtime internet life.
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Ruxton Renaming users is also a whole other issue, as after some research i see that most implementations of it have their edges cases. So you don't wanna just be moving users around all the time.
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Ruxton I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this, obviously a lot of you long timers have name domains that are unlikely to change. This is the 3rd URI my blog has had since it's inception.
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Ruxton Ultimately, i think user should be seperated from domain and there should be the ability to add/remove auths from the user.
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Ruxton domain/URI
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[snarfed] Ruxton you're right, the IndieWeb ties user identity strongly to domains
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Ruxton i understand why, but if my domain moves, im still the same person/account
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[snarfed] you can obviously switch your web site to a new domain, migrate your data, and redirect from the old domain, but I don't know that we've spent a lot of time thinking about migration for accounts on services that you IndieAuth into
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[snarfed] right
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Ruxton OAuth 2.0 doesnt either, but OAuth is authorization, not authentication, so it gets away with it.
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[snarfed] some actually do, eg Google OAuth (and maybe SAML?) can preserve the accounts you SSO into even if you change the email address associated with your Google account
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[snarfed] the consumers need to support that, but it's straightforward, just associate the account with the user id instead of the email
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[snarfed] but you're right, I don't know that we have anything similar for IndieAuth and domains yet. [aaronpk] would know more
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[tantek] snarfed, rather, for IndieAuth RPs, the domain *is* the "user id" - there is no separate table or number or whatever have you that needs to generated, maintained etc
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[snarfed] right, afaik this is a Google specific thing, not part of the standard
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Ruxton and userid=uri that's completely fine.. it's not indieauth thats the problem, its the implementation. Users are a 1 to 1 relationship with user id and there's no breaking from that in our current implementation
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[snarfed] but we probably do eventually want to think about how to migrate IndieAuthed accounts when you change domains
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[tantek] Another way to think of it is, when you create a new domain and use it with IndieAuth, it's like creating a new username on any other service. There are no services that let you create a second username and then magically migrate everything from the first to the second (not without some service rep manually moving things)
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[snarfed] that's not true, plenty of consumer apps let you change your username and keep the same account, data, etc
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[tantek] Nope reread what I wrote.
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[snarfed] right, I understand the technicality. but this is still a reasonable, common user need that we should think about fulfilling
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Ruxton plenty of sites let you rename hyourself, but more importantly they let you change the email associated with that username, so account recovery keeps working.
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[tantek] *create a second username* != change username
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[snarfed] ie, let's think about the user use case, not the DNS plumbing limitation
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Ruxton tantek: ook but my site just moved and im still the same guy
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[tantek] That's my point. Crating a second domain == creating a second username.
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Ruxton but its not
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Ruxton you just view it that way
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[tantek] No your site didn't "just move". You literally went as a user and bought a new domain name.
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Ruxton so?
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[snarfed] right. but the root cause of that is domain registrars/DNS plumbing, not some inherent principle
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[tantek] You didn't rename your domain because registrars don't work like that
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Ruxton and everywhere else handled my move appropriately
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[tantek] Point being from abuser perspective, create two things == create two things
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[snarfed] the user desire of, "I want to change my domain, but I want to keep using my existing IndieAuthed accounts" is totally valid and common enough
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[tantek] a user* perspective
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[snarfed] I guess one approach would be to recommend that IndieAuth consumers check for a 301 home page redirect on your existing domain, and if they see one, ask you if you want to update your domain
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[tantek] Sure that's why I said it's worth filing an issue with that use case for IndieAuth so the spec could specify something that IdPs and RPs could interoperate on to make that work
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[tantek] This is not a "just do it as an RP" thing
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Ruxton Again, this isnt a spec issue. It could be, but this is an implementation issue. What IndieAuth does is completely acceptable, what the wiki chose to do, isn't.
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[snarfed] I missed that you said file a spec issue
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[tantek] This requires interop for it to work predictably & reliably
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[snarfed] no matter
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[tantek] Otherwise you confuse users who then lose their identities because they get tricked by different methods
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[tantek] Nope it's a security failure mode if you make it "just" an implementation issue
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Ruxton i described how its fixable in implementation and it rightfully puts all the power of moving into the users hands, vs. relying on automatic and exploitable methods.
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[tantek] Because I guarantee that most (likely all) implementations are going to get it wrong and it will result in users losing their identities
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Ruxton OAuth 2.0 doesnt define moving accounts, but the base implementation around the place has very much settled on add/remove auth endpoints
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[tantek] No you didn't. You described a naive way that would be trivially exploited by bad actors
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Ruxton explain how it's exploitable..
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[tantek] Eg if someone ephemerally gets control of a domain then redirects all identities associated with it instantly. As opposed to having other checks & balances to prevent that.
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[tantek] Sorry but these scenarios are trivial enough that it demonstrates that it's not something that's been well thought thru
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Ruxton i mean, in what id described, that person would have to login to every account, which would fail if it's built to spec.
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[tantek] No because they'd have setup redirects already
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Ruxton i didnt suggest we follow redirect
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Ruxton because I saw that issue a mile away
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Ruxton I said, let me add/remove auths from MY account and dont tie it to the URI
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Ruxton a manual process,insigated by the logged in user, to add another authentication endpoint
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[tantek] I think the best way to prove a proposal like this would be to prototype it into an RP test site to demonstrate it and invite people to find holes
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[tantek] Short of that, I don't think you're going to convince any other RP implementers to risk users losing control of their identities
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Ruxton how are they going to lose control of their indenties?
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Ruxton and again.. im not suggesting a proposal or a spec change, ITS A WIKI ISSUE. My blog supports indieauth, but it doesn't tie my account to it.
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Ruxton The reason I think this is, there is use cases where you can accept the IndieAuth userid as the user and if they connect from somewhere else, it doesn't matter because you're not storing user data. But any site that has profiles and tracks historical user contributions/data, being bound to that userid is illogical.
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epoch > want account not tied to a domain
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epoch use a DID uri for a PGP key as the account's identifier?
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epoch and, for a pretty-name, have a changable "display name" field instead of printing the identifier uri everywhere?
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epoch I kind of write this now.
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@Mappletons Good lord. I did one quick chat for an NBC news piece and they linked to my website. Now my WebMentions are a dumpster fire - filled with all their crappy, low-quality syndicated copies of the article. Counted 38 bunk domains all pointing back to the canonical NBC domain (twitter.com/_/status/1635555293563060224)
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[tantek] what is webmention spam
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webmention spam" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "webmention spam is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] ^ aaronpk, that looks like a JSON result from wm .io
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[tantek] is that a de-duping opportunity?
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aaronpk oh gosh, the edge cases around that rel=canonical scare me
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aaronpk the other way to handle the indieauth issue is suggesting that consumers explicitly don't treat indieauth URLs as an identity, just as an authentication provider
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aaronpk this pattern happens with social login all the time too
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aaronpk you click "sign in with twitter" today, then next week come back to the site and click "sign in with google" because you didn't remember which you used, and now you have two accounts
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aaronpk are you the same person in both cases? yes of course, but how is the site supposed to know that
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aaronpk so there are other solutions like doing an email verification challenge so that a user account also has an email address associated with it
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aaronpk and then you can also connect multiple social providers to the same account, and log in with any of them
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[schmarty] i found this post on alternative text for (glTF-formatted) 3D models interesting. in particular the questions about what plumbing can be used (without necessarily investigating _whether_ that plumbing _should_ be used)
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[schmarty] https://equalentry.com/accessibility-gltf-objects/
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[schmarty] (tw for the cursed phrase "Dublin Core")
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[snarfed] poor Dublin, perfectly good city, never deserved that curse
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sknebel lol
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sknebel there might also be some Demon Core jokes somewhere in there, but thats a bit dark
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[schmarty] strong agree
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Loqi [snarfed] has 75 karma in this channel over the last year (119 in all channels)
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[tantek] [snarfed]++ for this successful hashtag to Masto test! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/45#issuecomment-1467051800
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[tantek] I’m guessing that those of us using Bridgy Fed should add such hyperlinking of our hashtags explicitly to our source markup, rather than suggesting any kind of hackery that would require Bridgy Fed to change source markup
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[tantek] now I'm going to go rethink hashtag hyperlinking vs p-category markup (hyperlink includes the '#' whereas p-category typically does not)
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[tantek] but unfortunately p-category is how BF identifies hashtags, so that may force us (publishers) into putting the '#' inside the p-category which IMO is not ideal
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[snarfed] thanks [tantek]! yeah we've just started discussing how the publisher UX should work
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[snarfed] really awkward since Mastodon requires them in the content, but the content is obviously user-visible, so I'm reluctant to change it programmatically much or at all
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[tantek] I was considering a <a> with <span> structure
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[tantek] like <a href="hashtagURL" class="something">#<span class="p-category">indieweb</span></a>
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[tantek] that gets the user-visible desired link
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[KevinMarks] putting the # in the url seems like a mistake
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[tantek] agreed with that detail
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[tantek] also not what Mastodon does
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[tantek] (with its own hashtag links)
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[KevinMarks] this seems more like rel=tag
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[tantek] except the JSON requires the 'name' of the hashtag which includes the '#'
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[KevinMarks] ah.
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[tantek] first experiment would be a BF specific property
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gRegor The hacyderm.io Masto example has that a+span structure
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gRegor And also rel-tag
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gRegor Could BF parse rel-tag and use that URL, then take the textcontent, ensure it's prefixed with #, then use that to create the necessary JSON?
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gRegor I guess it would need to look it up in the parsed rels and rel-urls: http://php.microformats.io/?id=20230314171543573
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gRegor what is rel-tag
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-tag" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "rel-tag is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag
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[tantek] there's already u-bridgy-fed. I wonder if u-bridgy-fed-hashtag would be reasonable for that "something" class above, from which it could get the URL for the 'href' of the hashtag to put into the JSON
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[snarfed] ugh right. u-bridgy-fed is totally unused, it's only for suppressing implied u-url. https://fed.brid.gy/docs#u-bridgy-fed+class
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[snarfed] I'd love to avoid custom mf2. I can definitely add missing #s to the AS2 tag fields, I'm only trying to avoid touching content. I like [tantek]'s link example above, maybe that plus tag processing would be enough?
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[tantek] I guess the question is the pain of extra processing of p-category (like adding '#' if missing), vs less processing and custom mf2
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[snarfed] ooh mastodon supports an `invisible` class, I wonder if they hide those with CSS. then I could add invisible links to content
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[tantek] note from my example there's no way to "get" the hasthtag link from any mf2 classes
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[snarfed] personally I'd happily do extra processing to avoid custom mf2
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[tantek] got it
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[snarfed] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/spec/activitypub/#sanitization
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[snarfed] yup, tested, class="invisible" is hidden in Mastodon
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[snarfed] but I couldn't assume that in other implementations
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[tantek] snarfed, would you find a way to make both <a href="hashtagURL" class="p-category">#indieweb</a> and #<a href="hashtagURL" class="p-category">indieweb</a> work? (note position of '#')
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[snarfed] sure
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[tantek] yeah I think *adding* hyperlinks to someone's content when they federate seems like a bad line to cross
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[snarfed] exactly
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[snarfed] I made the same call a while ago in Bridgy, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/478
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Loqi [preview] [cweiske] #478 Automatically create twitter hashtags from tags
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[tantek] ok then I think I can satisfy all the constraints I have in mind:
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[tantek] . proper p-category (without a '#')
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[tantek] . visible '#' as part of the clickable hashtag link on my post (CSS ::before lets you do this)
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[snarfed] right!
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[snarfed] this actually makes me wonder if mf2 parsers should strip leading #s from p-category values
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[snarfed] kinda aggressive, but maybe appropriate
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[tantek] . visible '#' before the clickable hashtag in the markup source for "plain text" readability (CSS not and @supports I think would be sufficient to hide it when displaying the other one, plus HTML ARIA to avoid confusing screenreaders, and maybe even class='invisible' for Mastodon to not show it)
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[tantek] like: <span class="invisible">#</span><a href="hashtagURL" class="p-category">indieweb</a>
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[tantek] special-casing p-category parsing feels quite bad
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[snarfed] yup. maybe a useful hack for simplifying publisher markup, eg simple ones could do <... class="p-category">#foo</a> and consumers would get the intended "foo" ...but agreed, awkward hack
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aaronpk so uh, weird SEO spam thing going on with that maggie post
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/Mappletons/status/1635555293563060224
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@Mappletons Good lord. I did one quick chat for an NBC news piece and they linked to my website. Now my WebMentions are a dumpster fire - filled with all their crappy, low-quality syndicated copies of the article. Counted 38 bunk domains all pointing back to the canonical NBC domain https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FrKo3j2WwAEAwlZ.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1635555293563060224)
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aaronpk both links in the screenshot are 404 now, and both websites are now some weird "random IP address generator" thing
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aaronpk so, steal blog posts from major news sites on high traffic keywords, blast out pingbacks to all the sites they link to, hope you get those sites linking back to you, then ... swap the site for some other tool that presumably has google ads on it or something?
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@aaronpk ↩️ also fwiw, that kind of spam usually comes in via pingback, so you can just not include the pingback tag to http://webmention.io and accept only webmentions instead (twitter.com/_/status/1635718773402632192)
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aaronpk maybe i should just take out the pingback instructions on the site
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gRegor How will BF get the href for the tag JSON if we're only using p-category for hashtags?
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gRegor Is rel-tag discouraged? I got that impression since it mostly comes up with mf1 backcompat
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capjamesg I thought that way too.
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capjamesg I don't think I added rel=tag to my site when I last reviewed my microformats.
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[snarfed] gRegor the tentative conclusion is that users will have to link to the hashtag inside content themselves, since we're reluctant to have BF modify content
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gRegor Right, that's not what I meant
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gRegor In the JSON `tag` object you need an href that matches what's in the content, right?
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gRegor The https://snarfed.org/#foobar in your example post
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[KevinMarks] If you are linking to a tagspace that follows the rel=tag pattern, it's reasonable to use it.
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[KevinMarks] That wouldn't qualify
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[snarfed] wait, I thought the href itself didn't matter, each instance rewrites it?
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[snarfed] I guess there's the AS2 tag href and the content link's href, but I didn't think either mattered?
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gRegor Maybe? But you need something, right?
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[snarfed] ugh this is why I try to back away from this slowly every time we look at it again
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gRegor My educated guess was: Mastodon is matching the tag JSON 'href' against URLs in the HTML content, though does not appear to be case sensitive.
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[KevinMarks] `<a href="/tags/IndieWeb" class="mention hashtag status-link" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#<span>IndieWeb</span></a>` is what I see in a rendered mastodon page
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gRegor Because we tried just the JSON without a link in the content. Adding a matching link in the content worked.
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[KevinMarks] the example above implied a nonmatching link worked too
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gRegor Is that xoxo.zone?
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aaronpk ok i haven't actually been following this tag issue but what is going on?
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aaronpk trying to make mastodon link to the tag page on the instance?
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[KevinMarks] https://github.com/bookwyrm-social/bookwyrm/pull/2524#issuecomment-1438789816
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gRegor Heh, short version: how to make hashtags in indieweb posts link to local hashtags when they appear on masto
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[KevinMarks] that has a link that has no textual match
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[KevinMarks] that was xoxo.zone
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aaronpk gRegor: i thought that was the default behavior of the "Hashtag" object?
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aaronpk is there a BF issue?
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gRegor https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/45
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gRegor snarfed did several tests lower down with just the Hashtag object, didn't work. Appears to do some type of matching against an href in the content.
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Loqi [preview] [EdwardHinkle] #45 Post with hashtag doesn’t get linked?
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gRegor That bookwyrm example has matching URL in content and JSON, https://dev-lit.secretbearlibrary.org/hashtag/1
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aaronpk so my site sends "id" and not "href" in the tag object
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aaronpk and I do use the full absolute URL as the "id" and in the content HTML
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aaronpk and it seems to do what's expected, viewing it on mastodon links to the mastodon tag page
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gRegor https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/45#issuecomment-1444950494 is probably a better starting point
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Loqi [preview] [gRegorLove] Summarizing some sleuthing and discussion from #indieweb-dev: Fetching the AS2 with `curl -H` for a [Mastodon post](https://hachyderm.io/users/liztai/statuses/109907766432901624): ```json { "@context": [ "https://www.w3.org/ns/activity...
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[KevinMarks] ah, gotcha - so the link in the content has to match the link in the JSON, but doesn't have to match the text of the hashtag
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aaronpk now i'm confused about the problem, because it looks like snarfed just figured that out?
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gRegor We definitely got it to work with href (finally), but that's interesting about id
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aaronpk there's a comment about bridgy changing the content programmatically? but obviously if there's no hashtag in the content text already, there wouldn't be anywhere for mastodon to show the hashtag
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aaronpk oh i think i see, you want to be able to type a plain text `#example` and have it show up as a link on mastodon?
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gRegor That would be nice, but I think we've realized it's not likely to happen -- don't want BF to be changing content to add links.
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gRegor I'm going to comment on github with a previous post of mine as an example, try to figure out what steps would be needed to make the hashtag in that post work on masto.
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aaronpk it isn't really "changing" the content since it's just making the post look correct on the mastodon side
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gRegor It's changing the content property (HTML) in the AS2
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aaronpk yeah but mastodon already changes that to rewrite the target of the link to the instance
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aaronpk I send `<a href="https://aaronparecki.com/tag/example">#example</a>` to mastodon, but if you look at my post in mastodon it has `<a href="/tags/example">`
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[snarfed] The reluctance is to change _user-visible_ content, eg adding the link for a p-category if there isn't one at all
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[snarfed] I'm fine with requiring the links in the source page's content. Users can hide them if they want, and can use class=invisible to hide them on mastodon if they want
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aaronpk i still don't think that counts as changing the content, it's more about making it work liike you'd expect on the mastodon side
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aaronpk if someone has `hello #<span class="p-category">world</span>` on their site, i would expect that hashtag to be clickable when looking at it on mastodon
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[snarfed] Sure, that's fine. I think we're saying different things
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aaronpk oh do you mean if there is a category property in the MF2, you don't want to add that to the actual content of the post on mastodon?
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[snarfed] Right!
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aaronpk yeah i agree, but that wasn't the complaint in the original issue right?
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[snarfed] Oh I don't know, just thinking through the complete problem space
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aaronpk yeah "I posted a reply to a Mastodon post and I included #IndieWeb in the text of my post"
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[snarfed] I generally want to avoid modifying user-visible content at all, that way lie dragons. Lots of older similar discussion in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/478
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Loqi [preview] [cweiske] #478 Automatically create twitter hashtags from tags
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aaronpk hm, just checked my code, and it runs through the full list of tags and includes tag objects in the AS2, but those wouldn't get added to the content
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[snarfed] I'd be curious to see an example tag of yours that wasn't in content
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aaronpk it just so happens that the vast majority of the content i post via AP is plain text notes, and those are stored as just text on my site, and my autolinker runs to create linked hashtags from the hashtags in the text of the post
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aaronpk so i could create an example of a post with 3 mf2 tags and 1 hashtag in the content, but in practice that's never going to happen
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aaronpk but I do do that for articles and other types of posts all the time
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gRegor Ok, commented with an actual post example: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/45#issuecomment-1468745141
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Loqi [preview] [gRegorLove] Maybe it will help to figure out next steps using a [previous post of mine](https://gregorlove.com/2023/02/covid-transmission-is-still-high/): The post has `#KeepMasksInHealthcare` in the content, not linked. It also has a few `p-category` because...
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aaronpk here you go https://aaronparecki.com/2023/03/14/11/activitypub
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Loqi [preview] [Aaron Parecki] Ignore this post, I am just testing some #ActivityPub hashtag stuff
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aaronpk heh, fun casing example there too
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aaronpk the tag object is all lowercase, but in my content it's CamelCase
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gRegor Yeah I noticed that in the hacyderm.io example too
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/2023/03/14130405-4386.png
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[snarfed] aaronpk looks like only the text hashtag survived: https://indieweb.social/@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com/110023420050057554
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aaronpk that is what i would expect
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aaronpk bahahahaha but
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Loqi awesome
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aaronpk but
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[tantek] reads scrollback and sees aaropnk catch-up on the the prior publisher markup discussions (and what Bridgy should / should not add)
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aaronpk it shows up on the #indieweb hashtag page!!!
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[snarfed] yup
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Loqi [preview] [Aaron Parecki] Ignore this post, I am just testing some #ActivityPub hashtag stuff
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/2023/03/14130457-7498.png
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[tantek] heh
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[snarfed] oooh interesting, so the non-text hashtag does still survive, just quietly!
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gRegor wat
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[snarfed] goddamn this is subtle, I want so badly to not have to think about any of this
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gRegor XD
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[snarfed] but arguably this now does make more sense
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gRegor I'm regretting this rabbit hole for myself (just a bit) haha
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[tantek] what do you call a hashtag that makes you grit your teeth?
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aaronpk !jamesbot what do you call a hashtag that makes you grit your teeth?
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[snarfed] gnashtag
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[tantek] yo is jamesbot allowed in indexed chat?
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aaronpk oh, no jamesbot here
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[tantek] [snarfed]++ ⭐️ (aside that joke was for gRegor and to some extent [schmarty])
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Loqi [snarfed] has 76 karma in this channel over the last year (120 in all channels)
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[snarfed] oh the bot is back up! it was down yesterday when I tried it.
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[snarfed] hah. I've never actually tried one of these LLMs. have to admit, it's entertaining, if unintentionally: https://jamesg.blog/bot/prompt/5acff6c7-ec6c-47f0-ae12-da01c557f103
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[schmarty] lol tantek
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[schmarty] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 77 karma in this channel over the last year (121 in all channels)
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gRegor lol [tantek]++
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Loqi [tantek] has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (81 in all channels)
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gRegor #😬
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[tantek] wonders if Guns N' Roses uses hashtags 🤔
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[KevinMarks] [capjamesg] looks like you could have a customer “maybe now I can actualize my dream of feeding all of Garbage Day into a bot and making a version of this newsletter than I can talk to.” https://www.garbageday.email/p/peeling-back-the-meghan-trainor-cultural
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[snarfed] good news, I tested just now and the hrefs in content and the AS2 tag object don't need to match. https://indieweb.social/@snarfed.org@snarfed.org/110023526079836381
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[snarfed] I'll hack this into BF quickly and let you all poke at it
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[tantek] [snarfed] interesting, I don't see that post showing up here: https://xoxo.zone/@snarfed.org@snarfed.org
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> [tantek] If I put jamesbot here, we'd have AI responses in AI. Inception.
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[snarfed] [tantek] I created it manually on indieweb.social
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[tantek] "created it manually on indieweb.social" ... with a @snarfed.org@snarfed.org user :exploding_head:
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[snarfed] hah yeah just manual inbox delivery
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gRegor The link preview shows example.com, if I'm looking at the right post
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gRegor But the #foobar is linked locally.
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[snarfed] hah funny yeah the href in the content was example.com
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gRegor Very confused. Is Masto literally just replacing links around text with a #?
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[snarfed] but still generating link previews for the original href 😂
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[snarfed] time for one more experiment
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[snarfed] damn this infernal nerd snipe
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gRegor XD
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[snarfed] ok confirmed, both tag object and content href must be non-empty
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gRegor but otherwise the URLs don't matter? interesting.
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[snarfed] evidently they have to be fully qualifed. I'm still trying to find a way to suppress the link preview
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capjamesg https://jamesg.blog/bot/prompt/2e077c27-0a3f-456b-84d5-8d9a687d75f5
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[snarfed] ok, if the content href points to https://fed.brid.gy/..., that suppresses the link. but that's not really reasonable to ask of users. sigh
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[snarfed] lol https://jamesg.blog/bot/prompt/330549b0-c1d7-4f71-a52d-c2801f1111fd vs https://jamesg.blog/bot/prompt/b3cd2585-d0ca-41ef-a65a-4a0e84c63a76
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capjamesg I guess I have work to do.
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[snarfed] nah it's fun
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capjamesg -> #chat
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gRegor [snarfed], last nerd snipe of the day for me in that github issue, haha
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[snarfed] gRegor heh. what problem are you trying to solve by using id? the link preview comes from the content link, not the tag object
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gRegor Oh, I thought it was vice versa
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gRegor Aha, and now I see that aaronpk's has the link preview too, so nvm
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[snarfed] ok gRegor I've deployed, feel free to try. p-category with or without leading #, <a> in content with same p-category text and leading #
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gRegor nice! updated and sent wm to BF
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gRegor Doesn't appear to have worked, but not logged in so maybe old post is cached
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gRegor I can make a new post with just one hashtag too
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[snarfed] looking
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[snarfed] oh your <a> tag has a relative URL, it needs to be absolute
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gRegor Ah, ok
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[snarfed] I'll put all of this in the docs
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gRegor *remembers the separate mf2 discussion about resolving URLs in content*
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capjamesg How long should a Postgres alter table operation take?
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gRegor [snarfed]++ it worked!
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Loqi [snarfed] has 78 karma in this channel over the last year (122 in all channels)
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[snarfed] awesome!
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gRegor and no link preview! awesome
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[snarfed] btw your earlier edited post did get its hashtag indexed for search, even if the content link wasn't rewritten. https://indieweb.social/tags/keepmasksinhealthcare
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[snarfed] although now I'm not sure if that was from your first or second edit 😁
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gRegor oh you're right! Look at the other hashtag not in the content: https://indieweb.social/tags/keepmasksinhealthcareca
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gRegor whyyy is it like this XD
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[snarfed] yeah we mentioned that earlier briefly, aaronpk saw it in his post(s) too
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[snarfed] I wonder how you avoided the link preview. does your site not have OGP or similar tags?
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gRegor In those hashtag searches I am seeing the link preview
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gRegor I do have og:image and og:description
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[snarfed] oh the link preview is there on the post now too, just took a while. https://indieweb.social/@gregorlove.com@gregorlove.com/109864841025927677
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gRegor Disregard, I see the link preview when I search too.
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[snarfed] sgh
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Loqi [preview] COVID transmission is still high around the US and we need masks to protect our most vulnerable in healthcare settings. Help us protect those who need it most by telling your governor to #KeepMasksInHealthcare: Learn More and Send a letter: Keep Mask...
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[aciccarello] Sounds like non-absolute URLs came up again...
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[tantek] gRegor I'm seeing "#KeepMasksInHealthcare" hyperlinked in your post in that tags search result to a local instance URL
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gRegor yep!
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[snarfed] yeah he added a link in a second update
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[tantek] tag page << Software example: Mastodon, e.g. https://indieweb.social/tags/indieweb
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Loqi ok, I added "Software example: Mastodon, e.g. https://indieweb.social/tags/indieweb" to the "See Also" section of /tag_page https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=87001&oldid=78034
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[snarfed] feel freea
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[snarfed] er sorry. docs are up, feel free to try! https://fed.brid.gy/docs#hashtags
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aaronpk what's that new effort that browsers are working on to make more native controls? apparently I didn't bookmark it
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aaronpk tantek mentioned it the other day but i can't remember any words from it to search for
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[schmarty] open ui?
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[tantek] what is OpenUI
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OpenUI" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "OpenUI is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk yess thank you
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[tantek] hmm, not quite indieweb-dev worthy yet
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aaronpk ah, styling the existing browser elements, but not necessarily making new ones
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[tantek] no no, all the above
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[tantek] latest info is on https://github.com/openui/open-ui
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Loqi [preview] [openui] open-ui: Maintain an open standard for UI and promote its adherence and adoption.
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aaronpk oh cool
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[snarfed] omg when Reddit is down, its API serves HTTP 777 responses
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[snarfed] no joke
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[snarfed] wat
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capjamesg 777?
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[snarfed] exactly
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[aciccarello] innovative?
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[aciccarello] They've got a big plane to land
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[tantek] what is 777
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "777" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "777 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] something about sloppy permissions
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capjamesg I don't get it.
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[tantek] though 755 is more typical
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[tantek] now I'm considering indieweb.social as a default taglink destination
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[tantek] e.g. this is pretty funny: https://indieweb.social/tags/hashtag
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capjamesg New IndieWeb Utils methods are coming in handy for jamesbot.
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capjamesg And old ones for that matter.
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capjamesg I'm adding IndieAuth support.
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gRegor weird, everyone should have permission to get that joke XD
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capjamesg IndieAuth added.
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capjamesg gRegor XD