#dev 2023-05-05

2023-05-05 UTC
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@sheldon_hull ↩️ I've used something similar for a while for webmentions. It's a really confusing system to wrap my brain around, but it works well for figuring out links/social media/pingbacks etc. (twitter.com/_/status/1654275063552647174)
geoffo, IWSlackGateway, KMF, tomasparks, [KevinMarks], [chrisbergr], gRegor, pharonix71, holiday_medley, lockywolf and [schmarty] joined the channel
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capjamesg [tantek] bsky.link is more stable now.
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[jacky] bluesky playing with algo timelines in the wild would be nice prior art for such an extension to Microsub
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[jacky] I've had some ideas for Lighthouse around this (including some pseudo-code) https://git.jacky.wtf/indieweb/lighthouse/issues/26 (related kinda to https://github.com/indieweb/microsub/issues/6)
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[jacky] I hadn't considered piping content out to a remote source (like to effectively have remote CRUD support of the content in my microsub server) but it's a thought!
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[tantek] capjamesg++ for devops!
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Loqi capjamesg has 32 karma in this channel over the last year (99 in all channels)
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[tantek] aaronpk, do we have a graph over time anywhere of the number of IndieAuth "users"? I realize that's a deliberately vague/ambiguous question, so I'm asking in a "by any kind of measure" way. Or is the number of users who have signed into http://IndieWeb.org (or http://IndieAuth.com? or http://IndieLogin.com?) a good enough measure?
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aaronpk that's certainly _a_ measure
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[tantek] that said, a chart on the homepage of http://IndieLogin.com showing that would be kinda cool
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Loqi [preview] Main Page https://indieweb.org/images/f/fd/2019-summit-day-1-group-animated.gif
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[tantek] even if it was *only* for folks who have happened to have used that service, and these days that would cover everyone who logs into the wiki right?
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[tantek] I feel like some sort of graph/measure like that would help provide a baseline for folks to debate etc.
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[tantek] especially if number go up 🦆
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aaronpk 4600 total unique URLs have used indielogin.com to sign in to things, mostly the wiki
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[tantek] maybe [snarfed] has suggestions for how to graph such a thing sustainably
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[tantek] cool. we should celebrate at 5k, 10k etc. 🙂
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aaronpk ack can't figure out this SQL query
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aaronpk should be possible to group by distinct user and get a count per year
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[tantek] [grantcodes] and other folks using React for their IndieWeb sites, can you reply to https://mastodon.social/@villasbc/110317221492117767 and help them feel welcome?
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Loqi [preview] [Victor Villas] After weeks of struggle and failed attempts to bend my static website generator and its templating engine, I’ve given up and I’m now embracing React for my personal website.I know that the #IndieWeb community favors simplicity and zero-cruft web,...
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[tantek] (or anyone using any framework and can use it as an example of /plurality in the IndieWeb etc.)
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[snarfed] [tantek] why do you ask about IndieAuth user growth? 😎
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[tantek] [snarfed] there was a post in #indieweb-stream in a thread in using domains about identity
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[tantek] thread about* using domains
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[tantek] for* identity
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[snarfed] got it. there was also a mention in fediverse chat on matrix today about restarting SWICG, how it went last time, that the indieweb group had had outsized influence and votes for its user base size, compared to the AP and SoLID groups
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[snarfed] So I wondered if that was related
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[snarfed] I refrained from asking if SoLID had reached triple digit users yet 😎
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> What was the outcome of that discussion?
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[snarfed] Lots more, that was just a small point in passing
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bkil Do you think it would be valuable to make the chat compatible with Opera Mini (can't log in despite allowing cookies and running JavaScript for 5 seconds)? Or to support phones you can purchase to this day having small screens (240x320). Or perhaps be accessible without JavaScript?
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[tantek] um, by no measure was any "indieweb group" having outsized influence for its user base size, because when Social WG started, the IndieWeb user base was > 0, and the AP & SoLiD user bases were 0. sheesh
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[tantek] bkil, chat about chat -> #indieweb-meta
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bkil Wasn't sure, because if the answer was "yes" to any of those, I could give a hint about it, and I hate to ping-pong between channels, but as you wish.
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[tantek] it's not ping-pong, if it's about http://indieweb.org community infrastructure it should start/continue/finish in #indieweb-meta. I've updated the page accordingly to be more explicit about that.
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[snarfed] bluesky federation blog post: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture
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aaronpk interesting parallels to how we've already split up webmention / micropub / microsub
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aaronpk "app view" ~= microsub server
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aaronpk "PDS" ~= your website
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[snarfed] true
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[snarfed] BGSes are the big difference in this description specifically
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aaronpk yea that is new
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[snarfed] and more broadly, decoupling feed ranking algorithms and moderation tools
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Interesting.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> “The federation architecture allows anyone to host a BGS, though it’s a fairly resource-demanding service. In all likelihood, there may be a few large full-network providers, and then a long tail of partial-network providers.”
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I learned this from trying to crawl Bluesky for emoji counts.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Where this = the vast amount of data with which you’re working.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> My specific blocker was
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The rate limits, but I realized quickly the vast amount of data there would soon be.
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[snarfed] "We really labored over this architecture. We wanted to balance user autonomy & control against the requirements of running an at-scale global network. The biggest decision we made was opting for a "web-inspired" architecture as opposed to a "mail-inspired" architecture (a la ActivityPub)."
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[snarfed] "A scary decision! "Decentralized/federated social" brings with it a whole host of assumptions around network topology. For a long time, we took ActivityPub-style federation as the null hypothesis. After wrestling with this, I feel confident that this architecture is more resilient & more decentralized - in the important dimensions."
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[snarfed] https://blue.amazingca.dev/?username=dholms.xyz&postid=3juyy5bpik52h
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[tantek] 🔥
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> No bsky.link link? 😝
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aaronpk +1 for the web!
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[tantek] capjamesg, can you make one from that amazingca link? I don't know how to reconstruct a bsky app link from that
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> One sec.
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[snarfed] bsky.link breaks on it, https://bsky.link/?url=https://staging.bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3juyy5bpik52h
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I can’t believe this.
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[KevinMarks] Bridgy and http://webmention.io would count as BGS in this world
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[KevinMarks] And possibly a WebSub server too
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[KevinMarks] Technorati was definitely a BGS
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capjamesg https://bsky.link/?url=https://staging.bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3juyy5bpik52h
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capjamesg Fixed.
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[snarfed] that was fast, nice!
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capjamesg I didn't upload my local code to prod.
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[tantek] do folks think any of the bsky building blocks would make sense (compose) with IndieWeb building blocks? at a high-level there do seem to be a bunch of similar values (domain is username, "web-inspired" architecture as opposed to a "mail-inspired" architecture)
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[tantek] is it worth writing up a table comparing building blocks? (I feel like there might be something like that on the wiki already...)
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[tantek] we have this for example: https://indieweb.org/lost_infrastructure#Comparison_table
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[tantek] hey capjamesg, how does Bluesky UI (the "primary" one if there's more than one) represent links? does it have auto-linking or auto-embedding? only for explicit http: or https: URLs or any domain.TLD with or without /path ? )
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[tantek] I'm rethinking your question about whether bsky.link should auto-link the contents of bleats
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[tantek] e.g. the link to the blog post in the inner (quoted) bleat in this post: https://bsky.link/?url=https://staging.bsky.app/profile/dholms.xyz/post/3juyy5bpik52h
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[tantek] capjamesg, if you can document what Bluesky's UI auto-links/auto-embeds (URLs with or without scheme, images, @-names, #-hashtags) and what it doesn't, I can see if there's a way to call CASSIS auto_link with the right parameters to mimic that behavior (so you can use it accordingly in bsky.link)
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[KevinMarks] It embeds a preview and links that:
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[KevinMarks] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2023/05/dev-20230505-232616-screenshot_20230506-002532.png
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[tantek] That makes sense
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[KevinMarks] For normal length posts (256 glyphs) it embeds the while thing
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[KevinMarks] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2023/05/dev-20230505-233224-screenshot_20230506-003152.png
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[KevinMarks] The previews are a key thing it gets right, unlike mastodon where they are truncated or weird looking and different between clients
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[KevinMarks] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2023/05/dev-20230505-233749-screenshot_20230506-003628.png
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[jacky] looks like there's some steam on fediverse moderation for those interested on some prior art for one's own implementations https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XMpRvJ9iRr-mzLvzzT4Nan33rmr5VH2lt8y7YfcEwuk/edit#heading=h.3magu3gziyaa