#dev 2023-06-06

2023-06-06 UTC
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Soni something like rss feed combiners but for fedi and with a nice html webpage as output
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Soni (we guess we could just use an rss combiner...?)
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Soni (we feel like that wouldn't look quite right tho)
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vladimyr [tantek]: I guess you are right and might be that I still haven't got rid of all the bitterness I accumulated during my last development for (mobile) Safari ordeal 8 yrs ago 🥲 No promises made but I'll try exercising the benefit of the doubt
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[tantek] vladimyr, you're in the right place. skepticism (accumulated or not) is quite welcome here in the #indieweb-dev channel 🙂
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vladimyr I finally found my place under the Sun!
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[snarfed] Soni careful, fediverse people get very unhappy when you scrape/download fediverse data in bulk
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Soni [snarfed]: they can copium and seethium tbh, they can't close the peering agreements we explicitly make with ppl.
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Soni the simple fact that a lot of indieweb folks already run their own servers means they can trivially make a client that mirrors their own posts privately, and then share *those* mirrors, using indieauth or something, with us. instance admins can't do anything about that.
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Soni the simplest solution to getting away with it is to not use fedi at all :p
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epoch do you want only the public posts, or the things that would be followers only too?
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Soni only public yeah
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Soni only public, original posts (and threads we guess)
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epoch as long as the "scrapes" are for personal use, it'd be pretty hard to argue against doing it
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Soni they're meant to be public
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epoch so are messages in IRC
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Soni we wanna have that "cool fedi ppl" page on our website where we show our friends' recent posts
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epoch I think I remember some flag that can appear in actors that might be relevant
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epoch "discoverable"
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epoch I can tell you what I'd be fine with, but asking permission from each person you wish to have on that page would probably be best
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Soni yes, that is the point
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Soni asking ppl if we may scrape their recent public, original posts for our cool fedi ppl page
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epoch then I don't hear any problem :P
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epoch (except ofc, such a thing not existing yet)
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Soni yeah that is the problem
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Soni and we're too burnt out to deal with it >.<
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epoch you /could/ poll their outbox
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epoch if you cbf to setup the ap plumbing needed to get them pushed to you
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Soni we've been burnt out from programming ever since the rust bullshit happened
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Soni like, at all
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Soni (this is definitely making college somewhat... difficult. if not impossible. but anyway.)
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Soni so we just, kinda can't
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Soni can't do anything, barely keeping up with college, etc
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Soni sorry
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epoch no worries, I might write this scraper.
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epoch could come in handy
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epoch making code to convert the json to html might be a bit annoying
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[snarfed] use granary? https://granary.io/?input=activitystreams&output=html#logins
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[snarfed] probably as a library if you're doing this in bulk, not the REST API
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[snarfed] but either is ok
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epoch I already have code for doing individual activities and objects to html conversion, but the annoying part is that just because I think it looks good
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epoch doesn't mean anyone else thinks it doesn't look like dog shit on the sidewalk
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epoch curl -sH 'Accept: application/ld+json' https://mastodon.social/@gargron | jq -r .outbox | xargs -r curl -sH 'Accept: application/ld+json' | jq -r .first | xargs -r curl -sH 'Accept: application/ld+json' | jq -r '.orderedItems[] | .id'
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Loqi [preview] Eugen Rochko
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epoch wonder what the CORS headers are for mastodon and if I could just do all of that in javascript from a webbrowser
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epoch checks
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epoch kind of looks like I can
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vladimyr I read somewhere that it is actually recommend to make that cors friendly but it was mastodon specific if I remember correctly
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epoch eh, nevermind, the outbox has CORS problems
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epoch and trying no-cors mode in fetch prevent the javascript from getting the response body
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epoch https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/10400 looks like trying to get better CORS headers for the endpoints I was trying to use is an open issue
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epoch btw, o/ vladimyr, been a while.
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Loqi [preview] [wiktor-k] #10400 Enable CORS for statuses and inboxes (ActivityPub API)
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vladimyr epoch: \o
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vladimyr Yeah, haven't been /e-live/ for quite some time but it is always nice to come back and see familiar faces ;)
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bkil SPA << Use-case: PeerTube - a video sharing portal where you seed back content that you consume to make it scale without the operator being Big Tech. If it reloaded the page after every search, play or comment, it would need to rebuild all of its peer connections and flush all of its caches from RAM. Various web applications could be implemented similarly that mandate hosting either huge items or a vast amount of items: wiki, photo sharing, social networking
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bkil (SSB, RetroShare, etc).
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Loqi ok, I added "Use-case: PeerTube - a video sharing portal where you seed back content that you consume to make it scale without the operator being Big Tech. If it reloaded the page after every search, play or comment, it would need to rebuild all of its peer connections and flush all of its caches from RAM. Various web applications could be implemented similarly that mandate hosting either huge items or a vast amount of items: wiki, photo sharing, social networking" to the "See Also" section of /single-page_application https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=88156&oldid=88140
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bkil aaronpk: Perhaps consider this for choosing slugs, perhaps reducing the weight of basic dictionary words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tf%E2%80%93idf
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[KevinMarks] @bkil the webtorrent library does that well. https://webtorrent.io/
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bkil [KevinMarks]: It can't do that **efficiently** when you force a full page reload.
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bkil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion_control
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[KevinMarks] I'd have to double check but I think it works with service workers too, so you can maintain the thread across refreshes
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vladimyr FWIW, all nostr web clients are also required to be SPAs to keep those websockets open
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vladimyr Service worker might be an interesting escape hatch but marshalling large chunks of data in and out of worker can be really tricky unless some sort of shared memory is supported
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vladimyr I guess this solves it https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Workers_API/Transferable_objects
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Soni meanwhile we just wish browsers had link sharing technology
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Soni https://github.com/WICG/proposals/issues/95
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Soni like so
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bkil Soni: Maybe I'm missing the point, but wasn't this the main reason why bookmarklets were invented in 1995? I.e., when you visit an interesting news article, you click on the bookmarklet on your bookmark bar that says "share on fedi", and it opens up the sharing dialog on your native instance. Better Fediverse servers already provide you with such a bookmarklet
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vladimyr ^ same
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bkil vladimyr [KevinMarks] I think you were thinking background Web Workers? But also, trying side step having to implement an SPA with a PWA + background workers sounds like a lot of work for what benefit exactly? (Note that I haven't researched whether your recommended alternative would work at all) At the same time, could you please share an example of when an SPA needs to transfer more data than MPA? I've only seen counterexamples up to now (orders of magnitudes
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bkil of savings in most cases).
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Soni bkil: the old javascript injection bookmarklets aren't compatible with the modern so-called "feed" or "timeline", nor are they server-side
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Soni they're often broken/unsupported in modern browsers and websites anyway
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Soni so a way to sidestep that would be nice
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Soni but maybe the sharing web is long gone and we're in the age of the siloing web
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vladimyr Wdym incompatible with feed and timeline? You cannot share feed, share target is particular item located on it instead?
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vladimyr Also bookmarklets being broken or unsupported in modern browsers sounds even more confusing. I've never seen /modern/ browser that lacks bookmarklet support
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[KevinMarks] I use bookmarklets on chrome android still - I give them a short name and they autocomplete into the url bar.
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vladimyr One could argue they are clumsy to use inside mobile browsers but on mobile OSes share functionality is part of the OS itself
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vladimyr Or you use trick that [KevinMarks] just described
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[schmarty] is there a way to use bookmarklets with mobile safari (iOS/iPad)? i have one or two Shortcuts that i use for that purpose but I find them harder to work with.
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aaronpk i've never tried in safari but my chrome bookmarklets work in iOS chrome
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[schmarty] interesting
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Soni we'd rather see a more secure alternative
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Soni vladimyr: yeah can't easily share item
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Soni mobile sharing on desktop would be nice
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Soni websites as apps for sharing to would be nice
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Soni and bookmarks could use more love
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c​apjamesg Really? Interesting!
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c​apjamesg I don’t think you can use bookmarklets with iOS Safari.
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epoch Soni: have you seen https://www.w3.org/TR/web-share/ and might it help with that you're wanting?
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Soni epoch: that seems to be built around letting the website control sharing
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Soni why are we building APIs to let websites control users
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Soni that seems mildly abusive
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Soni and besides, using referer would expose shit sites that leak your privacy, which makes it much better than any alternative you could possibly propose
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epoch what did you mean about bookmarklets not being server-side?
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epoch I figure the webshare api would be to put "share" buttons along each post so the browser has some handle on where individual posts can be seen without having to load the permalink into a new tab or something
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epoch I'd have probably gone with a rel attribute or something..
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epoch would have been interesting if frames had been used in feed-like sites, each post in a feed being its own iframe
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epoch rel="bookmark" would be a nifty thing to get a "share" bookmarklet (or, probably a userscript) to look for and maybe hijack
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epoch what would be a good emoji to use for "share"?
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[tantek] None really. It's kind of an anathema of ambiguous UI across platforms
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[tantek] Better to have specific buttons/links for specific actions
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[tantek] What is share?
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Loqi share is a watered down verb that's used on the "social web" (and other platforms like Google's Android) to mean pretty much any action https://indieweb.org/share
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[tantek] ^ lots more in there
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epoch inb4 <a href="share:[permalink-uri]">share</a>
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[tantek] Like if you mean "repost" then use a button for that.
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epoch (can I self inb4?)
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epoch I was reading https://www.fastcompany.com/3031872/why-isnt-there-a-standard-share-button before I asked
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epoch they have a nice table that shows a lot of symbols
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[tantek] Yeah it's a pretty horrible UI. You really want to put that on your posts?
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rubenwardy <a href="url" share> would make more sense and would match download
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rubenwardy Feels like a browser thing really. Mobile browsers come with share actions, doesn't make as much sense on desktop browsers
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epoch links insisting on being downloaded is really annoying sometimes.
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[KevinMarks] I use click and hold on a link to copy and share, but on mobile I'm spoilt by my keyboard having 10 copy buffers so I can copy links and text separately
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rubenwardy lol, font awesome supports a load of options https://rwdy.uk/xyD9bHcu.png
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epoch would a speech baloon make sense to use as a "share" icon?
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rubenwardy I'd see that as comment
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epoch hrmm... yeah
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epoch heh. bread?
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epoch if I can't think of something that actually makes sense, I might just use some random emoji that makes the least amount of sense
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[aciccarello] Text also works
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epoch the bread thing is like "breaking bread"
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epoch boo text, who wants text? :P
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epoch sitting on IRC.. full of text
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epoch I'd be using text too.
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capjamesg The word "bread" has me curious.
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capjamesg loves text.
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capjamesg is also using IRC!
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epoch I was thinking, since sharing stuff spreads it, if it'd make sense to use something like a virus emoji
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epoch probably bad taste...
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epoch do people still use "viral" when referring to internet memes spreading quickly?
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gRegor loves bread
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[tantek] Yeah viral has negative connotations
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[tantek] And yes it's still used as a metaphor unironically
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epoch then I won't bother go in that direction for a metaphor
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[tantek] I thought bread emoji like 🍞 was used on some social network as a kudos type reaction
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epoch I don't know.
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capjamesg What is happening with bread?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "happening with bread" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "happening with bread is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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epoch I was thinking bread might be an alright icon for "sharing"
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epoch based on the idea of breaking bread with someone
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capjamesg [tantek] Erase isn't good.
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capjamesg It implies full removal, which is almost impossible on the web.
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[tantek] Lol out of context
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capjamesg Oops.
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[tantek] Let's see if we can set some better context
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capjamesg ++
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[KevinMarks] Previously on viral http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-not-to-be-viral.html?m=
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[tantek] We need a table of the features/verbs across various acronyms for storage protocols like CRUD, CRURU, BREAD, etc and which features each has and lacks
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capjamesg Is CROISSANT in "etc"?
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[tantek] No because it doesn't have a single mapping for verb to letter (it used many letters to mean the same verb with synonyms which is inefficient and potentially confusing)
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capjamesg ++
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capjamesg I see CRURU presenting a pronunciation issue.
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capjamesg (Although I am not well versed in the technicalities of what constitutes hard-to-pronounce syllables; would love to learn more!)
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vladimyr I said I'm gonna try to exercise the benefit of the doubt so I did and went reading WebKit team's latest blog post about new WebKit features including dockable webapps
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vladimyr So far so good
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vladimyr But then I saw this abomination https://webkit.org/blog/14205/news-from-wwdc23-webkit-features-in-safari-17-beta/#css
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vladimyr It happens to be that your /favorite/ irc ranter is in fact native speaker of non-existent Serbo-Croatian language
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vladimyr Non existent in a sense that it was primarily political construction made by both royal and later communist Yugoslavia and due to the fact that neither one of former entities that once were part of it recognize it as official language
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vladimyr In fact if you ever find yourself wandering through Balkans here is a friendly advice, never ever mention lexical or any other cultural amalgamations unless you really want to piss off folks around you
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vladimyr But using weird example of essentially dead and made up language isn't even the best part of it
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vladimyr They could simply remove Croatian part, call it Serbian and continue showcasing css counter featuring (Serbian) Cyrillic script
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vladimyr And now for the best part
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shreyanjain[m] <vladimyr> "I said I'm gonna try to exercise..." <- I'm impressed with how they handled dockable webapps though
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vladimyr They failed to list letters in correct order!
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vladimyr This is NOT Cyrillic alphabet
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vladimyr Like they took shotgun and gleefully decided they'll shoot themselves in the foot but then paused and decided it is not enough and jumped on the landmine just in case - that's how stupid that example reads and looks like...
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vladimyr And yes, webapps section is indeed nice and descriptive and basically nullified my stupid predictions about them trying to ignore or go against app manifests or service workers
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vladimyr Turns out I was wrong. Thing is Serbian Cyrillic can be transliterated to Latin script in one to one manner which works in both directions
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vladimyr But I forgot that Serbian alphabet has different order of letters
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[KevinMarks] [capjamesg] looks liek the 502 is back https://bsky.link/?show_thread=on&url=https://bsky.app/profile/kevinmarks.com/post/3jvch7sd3of2d
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[KevinMarks] it was up an hour ago
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c​apjamesg Will review in a few hours and bring back up.