#dev 2023-06-13

2023-06-13 UTC
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[tantek] [timothy_chambe] re: Mastodon developer documentation, perhaps you could help with a nudge or thumbs up on my small PR to improve things? https://github.com/mastodon/documentation/pull/1202
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Loqi [preview] [tantek] #1202 fix "ActivityPub format" mentions to be AS 2.0
UKn0Me, rrix, alecjonathon, ancarda, capjamesg, srushe, vikanezrimaya, bret, Zegnat, tiim, eb, angelo, gRegor, gxt__, sebbu2, jan6, null1, holiday_medley and [Murray] joined the channel
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[Murray] Bit of a long shot, but does anyone have experience with any "Jamstack"/SSG hosts that _aren't_ Netlify or Vercel, but which they'd still recommend? Specifically, looking for something which can do push-to-deploy, integrates with "common" CI/CD tools like GitHub/GitLab/Trevor/Puppeteer/Chromatic etc., and would preferably create preview deployments and "branch" deployments (e.g. be able to setup a dev/staging/qa/production
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[Murray] environment complex)?
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[Murray] (I should mention that GitHub Pages is not an option)
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[jacky] Looks like a new version of Web Monetization might be out. https://webmonetization-preview.netlify.app/
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[jacky] Kinda cool the concept of revsharing is built in https://webmonetization-preview.netlify.app/prob-revshare
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[jacky] If this supported fiat/real currencies, it'd be a shoo-in
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[jacky] This could allow people to own their paid subscriptions
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[jacky] https://webmonetization-preview.netlify.app/exclusive-content
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c​apjamesg This is really cool: https://explore2.marginalia.nu/search?domain=jamesg.blog
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c​apjamesg Powered by collaborative filtering.
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c​apjamesg GWG Apparently your site is the most similar to mine 😄
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c​apjamesg Have you been writing coffee blog posts you haven't told me about? 😄
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[jacky] trying to distract myself from <world>, would individual CLI tools for IndieWeb standards be more useful than a 'swiss-army knife'? I'm thinking something like `wm` or `webmention` to serve as a client (or even `mp` /`micropub`)
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[jacky] leaning towards the former mainly for scoping
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[tantek] 👀
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[tantek] Jacky, I think yes, and something like "wm" could be written as the CLI counterpart to http://mention.tech
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epoch could name the cli tools with emojis. :]
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epoch ./⭐️.sh
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capjamesg chat.sr.ht auto-links ⭐️.sh
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epoch lol
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epoch nice
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epoch they should just rip off the bandaid and make all TLDs valid
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capjamesg Haha.
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[Jo] I really like the CLI webmention tool idea
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capjamesg What part of webmentions would this do?
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capjamesg Sending or a dummy receiving server?
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capjamesg https://indieweb-utils.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ can help with both! You can do sending in < 10 lines.
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capjamesg https://jamesg.blog/2022/10/21/send-webmention-in-python/
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Loqi [preview] [James' Coffee Blog ☕] Send a Webmention in 10 (or fewer) lines of Python code
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epoch doing webmentions with a CLI tool is something I've worked on before
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epoch very me-specific and written in shell-script
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[KevinMarks] I thought we had webmention with curl, or was that micropub?
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[Jo] I send webmentions with curl usually yeah
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epoch does curl do the html parsing to look for endpoints?
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[KevinMarks] https://indieweb.org/Webmention-developer#How_to_send_webmentions_with_cURL
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epoch oh. it doesn't.
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epoch that step 1 isn't trivial to automate
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[Jo] https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/30/11/your-first-webmention it does (curl -si and grep rel=\"webmention\")
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[Jo] If i understood correctly
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Loqi [preview] [Aaron Parecki] Sending your First Webmention from Scratch
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[KevinMarks] That was the one
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epoch I have it grepping rel=webmention or rel="webmention"
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epoch for the header checks
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[Jo] Yeah smart
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epoch if it fails that, it then checks the response body for a link or a tag which is a bit messier
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epoch I had tested it against some uh, testing site.
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epoch https://webmention.rocks/
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epoch which hits a bunch of the edge cases
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epoch https://git.thebackupbox.net/webmention-tools/tree/refs/heads/master if you want to see the trainwreck
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[jacky] interesting conversation for /reader development imo (around consensual UX) https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/discussions/1131
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[jacky] I'll drop some example commands but I was thinking that the tool would do something like `wm send URL_1 URL_2 ... URN_N` and do the work of sending public Webmentions that way
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[tantek] jacky, are those URL_1 sources? or targets?
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[tantek] wm -s sourceURL -t targetURL is what I'd expect to see work to start, similar to the first UI form on mention.tech
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[jacky] yeah lemme update that
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[jacky] (sorry work grabbed me away)
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[jacky] oh I thought I linked this
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[jacky] https://indieweb.org/User:Jacky.wtf/Rust#Webmention
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[jacky] tbh I'm hoping to "win" over SSG sites with `wm parse $sourceUrl $targetUrl --check --html-path $localPathToHtml` and using $sourceUrl to resolve as that page's `<base href>` in a way
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[snarfed] from #indieweb good point, opt in for secondary bridging is probably right
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[jacky] yeah I've seen too many people freak out that their replies pop up all over (and that actually led me to not showing anything on my site until I can figure a "seamless' opt out flow)
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[snarfed] yeah I've chosen the other side of that so far, but it's clearly complicated and debatable
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[tantek] I lean towards jacky's experience/intuition on this. Certainly when I've bridged across silos it's felt awkward by default, and I’ve had to do explicit content design to make such posts "make sense" in such secondary destinations
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[tantek] If the networks have fairly similar "features" and "experiences" then such bridging can feel pretty natural. E.g. the way we bridge IRC, Slack, Matrix, Discord. Very different networks, yet they're all about realtime (mostly) text chat
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[tantek] that's not the case for social media however. the different silos feel very much different neighborhoods with different fashions & customs
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[tantek] that may or may not apply to different federated networks
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[snarfed] yup
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[snarfed] bridgy and bridgy fed are somewhat looser, eg federating replies reposts etc from social networks back to our web sites, as jacky mentioned
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[tantek] benpate[m] re: >Nerds on Mastodon are up in arms that the tech press is calling it "the Mastodon Network" because there's no good, human-friendly name to describe this cool new tech thing.< — let that be a lesson for creating something which is ostensibly a "subset" of the web and trying to pretend that it's "special"
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[snarfed] but at least the recipient's web site explicitly opted into the bridge. here the bridge would be federating an unknowning user's reply from one network to another, and none of those three are knowingly using the bridge
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[snarfed] so opt in sounds right
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[tantek] [snarfed] maybe you've already solved this, yet what I found challenging as I’ve posted content destined for multiple networks, I found I had to come up with syntax & mechanism for multi-network mentions of people across those networks
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[snarfed] not at all solved
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[snarfed] hell we haven't even gotten web => AP mentions working at all, regardless of syntax 😢 https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/493
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Loqi [preview] [gRegorLove] #493 Add support for publishing mentions
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[tantek] me neither, yet I’ve come up with some mitigating cross-network mention approaches which I need to write-up in a more sequential manner. links collected here in this post for now: https://tantek.com/2023/145/t1/
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[snarfed] particularly frustrating recently since the low tech way fediverse groups work is that you mention them and they repost your post, and there are groups I'd love to participate it, but can't via BF yet
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] @jeremiahlee.com (@Jeremiah@alpaca.gold) you’re right that the #IndieWeb is more of a movement. It’s a community based on shared values & principles¹, one of which is plurality², explicitly prioritizing interoperability over any “particular p...
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[snarfed] tantek++ yes! saw that
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Loqi tantek has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (97 in all channels)
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[tantek] too much of a backlog of "bigger" posts to write. it's a good reason to write up short posts on small things you incrementally figure them out as you do. that enables others to pick up the ball
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[jacky] this is tricky. like there could be some sniffing of remote profiles (checking for things like #nobot - a way people highlight a want to _not_ have automated tools engage with their account so a bit auto-opt-out)
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[jacky] like lol, if _platforms_ could give us some hint that it's okay, that'd simplify this a lot
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[jacky] outside of a public/private profile
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[jacky] I've been tempted to do some sort of one-time private message on whatever platform through my imaginary bridge that'd ask if people _would_ mind be rendering on my site (and if not and the URL is publicly available, just include it as a mention but mark it up as a reply without an explicit interface)
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[jacky] tl;dr: render content as if it was native on my site for those who _opt-in_ and just add them to a semi-hidden list of other mentions via URL and link to how to remove oneself if they're using a public-by-default silo
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[snarfed] asking via automated DM is interesting!
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[jacky] but it's harder than e-mail (lol)
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[snarfed] maybe? I dunno, email deliverability etc
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[snarfed] I'd prefer DM q's to the current fediverse technique of hashtags like #searchable and #nobot in bios. (may be silly, but I like the aesthetic of keeping my bio entirely empty)
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[jacky] (heh re: bios, I'm slowly moving that way more on bluesky)
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[jacky] if DMs are useful enough for this, that'd mean I could consider this for AP (at least) but would still need to figure out the IW approach (private Webmentions)?
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[snarfed] oh god that way lie dragons
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[snarfed] also unnecessary? people sending webmentions hopefully understand that they're expected to be displayed
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[jacky] ahh that's true
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[tantek] though since "anyone" can send webmentions for arbitrary sources & targets, you can't assume such expectations
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[jacky] yeah musing on this, this would be on the webmention service
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[KevinMarks] The line between webmention service and snitch tagging can be blurry
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c​apjamesg Snitch tagging?
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tei_ Hello! Is this the right place for beginner questions?
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[jacky] What is snitch tagging
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Loqi snitch tagging is a special case of explicitly person-mentioning someone in a reply to or quotation of a post which mentions (usually critically) that same someone more obliquely (like plain text or a nickname) as a way of notifying that person of the critique, either as a heads-up, or perhaps in agreement with the critique https://indieweb.org/snitch_tagging
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[jacky] I can imagine this could be obscured a bit (like a webmention service that uses "synthetic" URLs like bridgy but with unguessable parts and a minimal HTML representation to allow for _some_ semantics to be reflected in HTML but not enough to highlight the actual contents)
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epoch tei_: yeah
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tei_ I just brought my site to "actual" web hosting from Neocities, so it's just HTML and CSS. I'd like to be able to add comment boxes, and found this https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/babbleweb.html for it. I set it up, and when I insert the code beginning with "<?php", I get an error that says ""Expected tag name, got “?” instead! (Html doesn’t support processing instructions)"". If I just remove the question mark and rename the whole
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tei_ file .php instead of .html, then the whole thing works perfectly. So my 0% web developer question is, is that... bad somehow? Can I just rename all my .html files that I want to comment box on to .php and be on my way?
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epoch there will some a bit of extra overhead I expect
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epoch because the webserver will trying to run anything that is named .php instead of just sending it
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tei_ ah okay
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epoch but uh, besides the usual coding problems that might show up, probably nothing bad would happen
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tei_ but it wouldn't be a a problem for people trying to access it
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tei_ ok, thank you!
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tei_ do you know if there's a way to make it run in the html file as written? I've never used php before so I'm... not toally sure what... anything is haha
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c​apjamesg tei_ this is indeed the right place for beginner questions!
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c​apjamesg Welcome!
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c​apjamesg What is your domain name or web address? I’m jamesg.blog!
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epoch hrm.
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epoch like, where you don't have to rename the files?
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epoch or do you mean you want it to run inside of someone's webbrowser like javascript does?
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tei_ I mean where I don't have to rename the files
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epoch alright, uhhh... it is possible to do that
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epoch but specifics depend on what webserver you're using and how much access you have to change it
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tei_ ah okay. I'm using inmotion's core shared hosting plan, which doesn't have root access, if that's what I would need
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epoch root is one way to do it, but iirc, there is a way to pick how certain file extensions are handled in apache using some specific file that doesn't need root
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epoch they'd have to have that enabled though, and be running apache
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epoch looks into inmotion
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tei_ I am... not sure if it does haha
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tei_ but if it's not a big deal from the user side to have mostly html files as .php, then I guess I might as well just do that
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tei_ if the alternative is complicated
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epoch if they're using apache, there's likely something that can be done with a .htaccess file
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epoch looks like inmotion uses nginx instead of apache
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epoch was kind of expecting that. :/
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epoch hrm... or maybe they do either sometimes
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tei_ there are articles saying you can install it, but I'm not sure if I can at the cheap level haha
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epoch oooh
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epoch https://www.inmotionhosting.com/support/edu/wordpress/why-we-use-nginx-in-our-wordpress-hosting/
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epoch they use both
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epoch at least for their wordpress stuff
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