#dev 2023-06-20
2023-06-20 UTC
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[benatwork] Oh weird. Thanks for the heads up
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[tantek] Also it looks like RSVPs on your event posts aren't showing up, e.g. the event that RSVP is in reply to: https://werd.io/event/51c94deebed7de5c2386a1b4/unofficial-portland-post-indiewebcamp-meetup
# [tantek] [snarfed] posted: https://tantek.com/2023/170/t1/
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# [timothy_chambe] Over inside the Fediverse, lots of chatter this weeknend on Meta/instagram's "Project 92" and much back and forth sussing out the threat of an "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" play they might do against ActivityPub.
# [timothy_chambe] Some questions:
# [timothy_chambe] Maybe the podcast format vs Spotify or Apple extensions?
# [timothy_chambe] One - if anyone here has any thoughts on the validity of that specific concern... If people here have any ideas on how to combat an "EEE" strategy in that case from Meta.
# [timothy_chambe] Two: if people here have examples of past times a company tried to do a "EEE" effort against an open spec that was successfully thwarted, and what strategies and tactics proved to work.
# [timothy_chambe] Keeping React Framework interoperable even though it was born out of FB?
# [timothy_chambe] Others?
# [timothy_chambe] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
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# [tantek] Absence of a test suite makes a spec vulnerable to monoculture implementations or ecosystems, which is why Mastodon as the current dominant implementation can innovate and other AP implementations have to "be like Mastodon". Obviously if 10-100x users start using something else (whether Project 92 or something else), then that something else would have that ability
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# [tantek] AP C2S really hasn't gotten much if any adoption and it's had a long enough chance (same W3C REC as AP S2S) that I don't see any reason to dwell on it or encourage it. If people want to experiment sure, but there's no ecosystem there. In contrast there is a Micropub open ecosystem of clients & servers, and there is the Mastodon-proprietary client API which a number of clients have adopted (but no other servers AFAIK)
# vladimyr Mastodon API is available on Pleroma/Akkoma, Calckey (not sure about misskey tho) and friendica iirc
# vladimyr It became defacto standard c2s api
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.zachleat.com/web/eleventy-side-project/" to the "See Also" section of /Eleventy https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=88327&oldid=87310
# capjamesg 😢
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# vladimyr [tantek]: I'm not aware of such thing so I guess it goes as you said - playing catch up game with mastodon
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[KevinMarks] I had an interesting CSS time for dayjob today - I had got too used to being on my giant iMac screen and hadn't been cross testing on smaller displays, so the loose form layout I was using was pushing all the content offscreen. I came up with a test model of having iframes set to the laptop viewport of some client users' screens to crosscheck scaling. 1280x608 was a lot less vertical space than I assumed.
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[Murray] Polypane is great for that kind of thing: https://polypane.app/ (paid though)
# [Murray] Sure, I think all Western browsers have that? Not as useful as something like Polypane when developing, but incredibly useful if you have nothing else 🙂 (I actually couldn't imagine doing my job without that feature, and FF's is my favourite by far, mainly because you can use it independently of the code inspection panel)
# [KevinMarks] In this case it isn't meant for mobile at all, so I was doing a desktop/laptop responsive grid, but had forgotten how vertically squished some laptops are. I just tried FF with a custom version set to that 1280x608 as the default 1280x800 is wrong (It is 1920x1020 scaled to 1280x680, but I lose a bunch to OS and browser chrome, which the FF thing doesn't allow for)
# [KevinMarks] That's fair; in this case it's a pretty data dense dashboard that is meant to be an overview of complex stuff, so the design centre was bigger screens, so even if it was an odd shape it was 1920x1080 so lots of space for the form controls.
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[0x3b0b] Yeah, that makes sense. $dayjob also has at least one internal application that seems to have been designed specifically on the assumption that the staff using it would have dual monitors with one of them portrait. Since it was internal and for on-site staff, that's an assumption the company could ensure was provided for.
# [KevinMarks] In this case it started out with dinky laptops like that ~5 years ago when I was first working on it, but since 2020 most of the users are now using bigger external screens, so space creep wasn't so obvious as I added things, but one of the team was using it on their laptop somewhere.
# [0x3b0b] The site that bugged me had the logout link - and I think possibly one other sometimes-important piece of UI - where it wound up requiring me to scroll to the right to click on it because the ~100px width of my vertical taskbar wasn't allowed for. And what really bugged me about it was that it was only that far over because of the width of a header image that was mostly a repeating pattern. I think we fixed it eventually.
# [KevinMarks] the other thing I realised is that I forgot that windows machines have visible scrollbars on overflow as I'm so used to MacOS hiding them, and that exacerbates things
# [KevinMarks] quite - I had accidentally got right scrollbars on 2 columns of the layout in that screensize, as well as the vertical ones I expected
# [KevinMarks] (the workaround was zoom out with ctrl minus, but less than ideal)
# [KevinMarks] also the FF screen tool doesn't behave right with zoom - it should zoom the scaling inside the cropped window, but it makes it smaller instead.
# vladimyr As 0x3b0b pointed out having overlay scrollbars hidden on mac is indeed default but as soon as you plug in mouse that reverts to always visible
# vladimyr And it can be further changed and configured through system prefs
# vladimyr What can help you is reserving space for scrollbars with scrollbar-gutter: stable https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/scrollbar-gutter
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# [timothy_chambe] [tantek] and [manton] - great thoughts and notes. I'll check to see if any test suites are in the works.
# [timothy_chambe] On the other question can anyone here think of good examples where a EEE campaign against an open standard was thwarted well? And what common traits that could be lessons learned from those that didn't succum to being "embraced, extended and extinguished" that folks can learn from?
# [timothy_chambe] Having a robust test suite for one tactic is definitely one.
# [timothy_chambe] To me Podcast formats seemed resilient to Spotify or Apple trying to extend it. I heard others say that even though React framework came out of FB, it opened up broadly and became FB independent well. Others?
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# vladimyr React is anything but good example cause it simply changed hands, from FB to Vercel. Good luck trying to push something that doesn't align with their NextJS supporting library agenda
# [tantek] [timothy_chambe] the assessment of Podcast formats is incorrect. Due to neglect/failure of any form of RSS standardization in an actual standards org, Apple was able to easily extend "podcast feed format" with tons of proprietary extensions that anyone who wants to actually have a podcast work in tools etc has to use
# vladimyr There is your third E in place: https://basta.substack.com/p/the-absolute-audacity-of-apple-podcasts
# vladimyr > What I learned is that Apple does not produce an RSS feed for podcasts that they host. That’s right: if you host your show with Apple, the only listeners you can have are folks with the Apple Podcasts app.
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# [snarfed] they even make interop for _inbound_ RSS feeds difficult, eg https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/221
# [timothy_chambe] Thanks [tantek] on the latest on the Apple's effort to "extend" podcasts. I might look to see if that "worked" did podcast producers start to use that, or did the community retain interoperablity.
# [timothy_chambe] [tantek] and [manton] - on the topic of some instances (about 3 percent) signing a pledge to defederate Meta premptively. None of the big servers have, and almost none of the mid-range ones. Indieweb.social is at mid-range with about 11,000 users, and here was my statement on our policy: (open for any suggestions or notes) https://indieweb.social/@tchambers/110568723404841278
# vladimyr They might host rss feed on their own domain, but typically audio files storage is located at different corner of the internet
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[schmarty] Apple offers a premium podcast service where you can host your podcast, get a ton of analytics about your listeners, accept paid subscriptions, and more. No RSS if provided for these and they are only available through Apple's app.
# vladimyr And audio is tainted with DRM so unless you keep your audio sources safe you can't really backup podcast episodes
# [timothy_chambe] [tantek] or others: what would it take to get even a basic "alpha" version of a ActivityPub test suite up and running in the next weeks assuming a Barcelona launch is immenant and getting one live asap was key. Would that need to be done formally inside any standards org or would develpers outside starting one still be productive?
# [schmarty] cwebber's initial test suite is open and i believe she has pushed several times for someone to take over. https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/the-activitypub-test-suite/290
# [schmarty] ah, yes, that is definitely an issue
# [KevinMarks] I think cwebber's suite relies on some unusual tooling that may be hard to get running again.
# [timothy_chambe] Doing some old hunting: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/the-activitypub-test-suite/290
# [KevinMarks] If you have an async protocol, an async test suite is necessary
# [tantek] IMO the excuses for "why it can't be done" are nonsense. the excuses for "but it's HAAAARD" I have some sympathy for, except if you're putting yourself forth as an "expert", grow a backbone and step up to take on and solve the hard problems, otherwise stop putting yourself on a pedestal as an expert
# [timothy_chambe] Anything in this fork seem promising? (but seems dead and not updated in years) - just looking to see if there are any efforts to build on: https://github.com/go-fed/testsuite
# [schmarty] [timothy_chambe] snarfed and manton have been doing great work bridging posts into and out of ActivityPub / Mastodon, but there aren't many developers dedicated to ActivityPub projects that hang out in this chat.
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# [tantek] Nice. That's quite an accomplishment! Can you add it to (if it's not there already) https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub#Software ?
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# [tantek] New W3C website (mostly design, some content) dropped: https://www.w3.org/
# [tantek] speaking of ActivityPub, I see evanpro has been documenting a bunch here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/ActivityPub/Primer
# [tantek] ActivityPub << Developer primer (in progress) on W3C wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/ActivityPub/Primer
# Loqi ok, I added "Developer primer (in progress) on W3C wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/ActivityPub/Primer" to the "See Also" section of /ActivityPub https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=88329&oldid=88328
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# Loqi A static site is a website that serves pages directly from files on the web server, which have often been previously generated by static site generator software only when created or updated, instead of for every request https://indieweb.org/static_site
# [tantek] added ^^ to https://indieweb.org/static_site#Brainstorming if anyone wants to comment, expand, provide other thoughts