#dev 2023-06-30

2023-06-30 UTC
btrem, tei_1, tei_, Missingtextures, shreyanjain[m], gxt__, [aciccarello], [pfefferle], dustinm`, eitilt, jjuran, holiday_medley, holiday_1, Seirdy and gRegor joined the channel
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gRegor [aciccarello], your bookmark post looks good to me. I think I've tried bookmarks via Bridgy Fed before and I think it failed due to the u-* property. I didn't keep the log so I don't remember exactly.
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gRegor Though if it does work, I think Mastodon would only get your e-content, commentary on the bookmark, not the bookmarked thing
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gRegor Related to that, https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/332
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Loqi [preview] [gRegorLove] #332 Idea: fallback to summary for other post types?
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gRegor I don't have a clear idea on that either, ideas welcome
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[aciccarello] Yeah, that issue seems to be exactly what I was noticing. Not sure exactly what I would expect bridgy to do in this case
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[aciccarello] I'll think about it 🤔
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[tantek] oh no voxpelli, I had nothing to do with XRD (maybe you meant XFN?) 🙈 https://mastodon.social/@voxpelli/110633954542007104
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Loqi [preview] [Pelle Wessman] @tchambers @chrismessina @will @blaine Were so much interesting tech created then:- Portable Contacts: https://portablecontacts.github.io/ (Joseph Smarr) - Salmon: http://www.salmon-protocol.org/home ( @jpanzer ) - WebFinger (@blaine) - ActivityStrea...
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voxpelli @[tantek]: ooooooh, right 🙈🙈
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voxpelli Yeah, thought XFN, didn’t think XRD would be mentioned by itself
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voxpelli @[tantek]: updated with correct attribution to Blaine Cook and Eran Hammer
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[tantek] 👍
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[snarfed] gRegor [aciccarello] yeah "can I use Bridgy [Fed] to publish this thing that's not an article or note?" is an age old request that we've never really settled on an answer design for
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gRegor p-bridgy-summary? :D
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[snarfed] yup that's existed forever, https://brid.gy/about#silo-content , and it's been the one answer so far
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gRegor oh whoa
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[snarfed] more background on the high level quesiton in https://indieweb.org/Twitter#original_lacks_POSSE_tweet , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/362 , https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb
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gRegor Does BF ever set the Mastodon summary property?
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[snarfed] no because that's content warning, which we're also conflicted on
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gRegor Right
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gRegor But was wondering if BF could make an opinionated fallback choice, p-summary as post content if no e-content
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gRegor But then the future issue could be if BF ever needed to support content warning, so not ideal
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[snarfed] ah sure. basically, should we add Bridgy non-Fed's p-bridgy-[silo]-content to Bridgy Fed. probably!
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gRegor Oh, unless... e-content + p-summary = post with content warning
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gRegor no e-content, yes p-summary = p-summary as post content
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[snarfed] I'd avoid summary, content warning, etc altogether
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[snarfed] anyway gRegor [aciccarello] feel free to file a feature request!
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gRegor I can re-open that issue with more notes on what I'm thinking, or would you prefer a separate issue?
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[tantek] I think there's a separate effort to define a content-warning property explicitly
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[snarfed] separate pls
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[tantek] Would be better to use that
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[tantek] conflating warning/summary is really bad semantic dissonance
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[snarfed] yup!
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gRegor agreed
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[snarfed] and that conflating is (primarily) on Mastodon, not us
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[snarfed] 🤷
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shreyanjain[m] i do wonder why fedi ended up doing that
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shreyanjain[m] is that primarily mastodon, or do other parts of the fediverse follow the same convention?
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[snarfed] afaik both, because of Mastodon
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[snarfed] (as usual)
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shreyanjain[m] 😬
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aaronpk i think what happened is they looked in the activitypub spec for an existing property to use
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shreyanjain[m] the ui still calls it content warning, fwiw
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[snarfed] aaronpk right
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[tantek] the fact that the need for a content-warning got shoved into p-summary is stark proof that even the *dominant* implementation could not figure out how to extend Activity Streams. Even with all the @context / JSON-LD mumbo-jumbo extensibility claims, one *simple* extension was not possible for Mastodon to propose and implement.
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[snarfed] 🔥
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[tantek] ^ this is why I don't post to mailing lists, I would likely post something like that to public-swicg and inadvertently start a flamethread
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[snarfed] "inadvertently" :trollface:
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[tantek] I mean, I'd rather have just a rational critical conversation about how extensibility is actually super hard and no one has figured out a practical "distributed" extensibility mechanism including all the RDF attempts, admit that, and then move on to figuring out what are good processes for experimentation, incubation, and standardization of successful incubations
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[tantek] but it would get lost in usual semweb defensiveness, handwaving, "you just don't understand how to do it right" nonsense etc.
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[snarfed] yup, definitely understood
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[snarfed] nevertheless, you persist! (at W3C)
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[snarfed] 🙏
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shreyanjain[m] lol, recently on the nostr side an attempt to extend the json structure was made too, it was shot down with lots of "that's what the tags array is for"
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[tantek] hah yes, tags are a *great* place to experiment with new features
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[tantek] [snarfed] yeah, I've carved a very deliberate path of interaction at W3C to hopefully work on the stuff that is highly critical, I have particular skills for, and avoids dogmatic arguments.
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gRegor Does the no public tweets mean embeds broke too?
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[snarfed] looks like they still work
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[snarfed] meanwhile, from the "words actually mean things and that matters" dept: "In Twitter's communications about the switch, the company said the old API would be "deprecated," which led some developers to believe that the old API would remain accessible to its existing users, but that Twitter would just not provide support or updates for it anymore. Many were left scrambling to fix their apps after Twitter completely cut the old API
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[snarfed] off." https://mashable.com/article/twitter-api-elon-musk-developer-issues-apps
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gRegor yep, confirmed an embedded timeline worked too. Phew, won't be getting emails from work clients then :)
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gRegor IA returns 404 when trying to save them, though, as expected
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[snarfed] hopefully you've warned them in general though
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shreyanjain[m] supposedly WhatsApp/2.0 in the user agent lets you bypass
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gRegor Hah
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[tantek] aaronpk is X-Ray still able to retrieve tweets for reply-contexts?
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aaronpk no, my API key was shut down
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[tantek] wondering if curl with a WhatsApp UA would work
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aaronpk might return the web page, but won't be the full fidelity version like the API
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[tantek] good enough for the properties for a reply-context tho?
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[tantek] e.g. if parsed for backcompat metaformats
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aaronpk doesn't that only include a truncated amount of tweet text?
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aaronpk could be good enough for reply context
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gRegor I tried some different UAs in Insomnia but no luck
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gRegor 200 response, just the twitter logo middle of the page. Didn't check source for metaformats
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gRegor Only one is <meta property="og:site_name" content="Twitter" />
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gRegor `user-agent: WhatsApp/2.0` returns 404 "Nothing to see here
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gRegor [Looking for this?]" and that link is just twitter.com, heh
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[tantek] btw I'm so tempted to screenshot the js;dr view of https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitter/comments/14myp4g/its_not_just_you_twitters_website_doesnt_show/ and caption it "It's not just you, Reddit's website doesn't show content without Javasript"
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gRegor haha, do it!
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shreyanjain[m] Nice
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shreyanjain[m] The WhatsApp UA seems to be very hit-and-miss
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gRegor Twitter seems to be very miss-or-near-miss
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shreyanjain[m] Does GoogleBot work?
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gRegor Nope, 404
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superkuh reddit mostly does. Especially if you're using old.reddit.com and a browser with web components disabled.
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superkuh (mostly does show actual content without JS)
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[tantek] login wall << 2023-06-30 The Verge: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/30/23779764/twitter-blocks-unregistered-users-account-tweets Twitter has started blocking unregistered users] / If you want to browse tweets, user profiles, and comment threads on the web, then you currently need to be signed in to a Twitter account.
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Loqi ok, I added "2023-06-30 The Verge: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/30/23779764/twitter-blocks-unregistered-users-account-tweets Twitter has started blocking unregistered users] / If you want to browse tweets, user profiles, and comment threads on the web, then you currently need to be signed in to a Twitter account." to the "See Also" section of /login_wall https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=88453&oldid=86834
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[KevinMarks] There's a fine CW built into html with <details><summary> - maybe that naming confused mastodon
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sknebel and in practice people use it like that
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[tantek] there's a difference between the semantic and the tool
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[tantek] yes content warnings require a disclosure UI. that does not mean that all disclosures are a content warning
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sknebel there also was a proposal to rename it as "content note" in the UI as kind of a compromise towards "this not just for *warnings*"...
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c​apjamesg https://mastodon.social/@voxpelli/110634700809339558
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Loqi [preview] [Pelle Wessman] @scottjenson The worst part of most current #Fediverse implementations:They bundle the reader part and the publishing part.It’s like bundling Google Reader within WordPress.Totally needless. (And something I think the #IndieWeb is getting more righ...
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[snarfed] ^ interestingly "bundle reading and publishing" has been a pretty strong pillar of the modern social design that we've advocated here
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[snarfed] eg from [tantek] etc
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[snarfed] also evidently Twitter's new login wall is "temporary," https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1674865731136020505
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[tantek] yeah that UI convenience ship has sailed. social media silos made it the norm so either you have to make your UI as convenient or suffer from far less adoption (which is fine too if you're making tools only for yourself)
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aaronpk to be clear, that's bundling the reading and publishing *UI*, not bundling the underlying storage
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[tantek] right
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[snarfed] true! viz. own your data
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[snarfed] but that thread ^ seems to be pretty clearly about UI
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[tantek] that's a different argument (caching your followings posts on your own server along with storing your posts)
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