#dev 2023-10-06

2023-10-06 UTC
epoch, [0x3b0b], gerben, kleb, [catgirlinspace] and alephalpha0 joined the channel
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[catgirlinspace] [aaronpk] are the hosted versions of xray and telegraph for public use? or should i rehost them myself?
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[snarfed] they're definitely for public use, afaik that's the point 😁
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aaronpk I make no uptime guarantees but yes you can use them
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epoch if anyone is using firefox on their desktop and looking to shim in a webshare API userscript, I rewrote mine so it works with violentmonkey.
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epoch guess I could add it to https://indieweb.org/Web_Share_API
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epoch guess there's some support for being a share target in web manifests
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epoch very little firefox support of anything in web manifests
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[tantek] because they're not really necessary
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[tantek] per "With Safari, you can add _any_ website to the dock. It doesn’t need to be a progressive web app. But the installation experience works best if there’s a manifest file pointing to some nice icons." — https://adactio.com/journal/20520
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Loqi [preview] [Jeremy Keith] Websites in the dock
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[KevinMarks] Interesting - the reluctance to improve standards by removing unused or unimplemented bits may be related https://getpocket.com/explore/item/when-asked-to-fix-something-we-don-t-even-think-of-removing-parts
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omz13 I'm happy when I can delete code because: less code = less to go wrong.
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[tantek] folks here may be particularly interested in this issue for helping move a bunch of specs forward with updates from interoperable implementations: https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/435
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Loqi [preview] [plehegar] #435 Restarting the Social Web Working Group
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Soni we would love to redesign half of HTML
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Soni remove it and start fresh
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[snarfed] mmm boiling oceans
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[snarfed] that way lies...lots of dead fish I guess
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[tantek] Soni, what's the thing you're trying to build for your website that needs different HTML?
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[snarfed] [tantek] always on message! great modeling here, I admire that
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Soni [tantek]: it's not about what we're trying to build, but about what other ppl are building
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Soni removing div would be a great start
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[tantek] Soni, here in the IndieWeb #indieweb-dev channel, it *is* about what you're trying to build.
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[tantek] "removing div" does not enable building something new on your website so that makes no sense
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Soni [tantek]: we care about an accessible web and removing div is a good first step to get there
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[tantek] "removing div" does zero for accessibility. have you tried this with your own website and tested it with accessibility tools?
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[tantek] if you're looking for a general webdev discussion channel, you may have better luck in other communities
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[tantek] the focus in IndieWeb #indieweb-dev is about what YOU are trying to build for your website
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Soni we basically never use div
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Soni we should use section more often, and like a bunch of other stuff
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Soni we feel like html is suboptimal as a way to describe this kinda stuff
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Loqi totally
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Soni "leave it up to screen readers to figure it out"...
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AramZS So like... *you don't have to use div*. No one is forcing you to!
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Soni we don't know that we can do better, but this is clearly wrong
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[tantek] "clearly wrong" or process of elimination is good for philosophy & math, but produces zero functional code, features, or anything that helps humans actually get things done.
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[tantek] IndieWeb developers, W3C has announced TPAC 2024 location and dates that you may want to save: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2024
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[tantek] There were many hours of SocialCG discussions at this year's TPAC (a few weeks ago) and it is very likely that there will be many more hours, perhaps even official Social CG (or can we dream of a WG?) meetings then.
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[aciccarello] Oh cool, that' only an hour from me. What does that event usually look like?
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gRegor ooh
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[aciccarello] Is that for W3C members only? Those fees are significant.
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[tantek] aciccarello, yes the fees are non-trivial. There are provisions for Invited Experts and lower fees / waivers.
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[tantek] re: what it looks like, lots of public links on https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2023 to click through and see!
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[tantek] re: fee waiver, see https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/registration.html#waiver for this year's TPAC for example
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[aciccarello] Cool, thanks for the info 👍
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[tantek] aciccarello, if it's only an hour from you, I highly recommend at least checking out the Plenary day (likely Wednesday) which is almost always all breakout sessions with lots of community participation
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[tantek] some of us are pushing for two days of breakouts for 2024, we'll see if that happens
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[tantek] you can dig into the 2023 TPAC links to find the Grid of the breakouts (pretty sure I linked to it directly from the 2023 wiki page)
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[tantek] to see what kinds of topics were discussed
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[aciccarello] I see this page with a bunch of breakouts. That's a lot of sessions! https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/breakouts.html#grid
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[tantek] capjamesg++ great summary on that Social WG charter issue. Thank you! https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/435#issuecomment-1751233671
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Loqi capjamesg has 43 karma in this channel over the last year (123 in all channels)
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Loqi [preview] [capjamesg] I support the creation of a WG. There are several changes to be made to the ActivityPub specification that would require a WG. I thank @evanp for leading work as editor, and to the broader community -- particularly those involved with FEPs -- for hel...
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[tantek] ooh looks like Bridgy Publish doesn't recognize thumbs-up reacjis to GitHub issues/comments that have skin-tone modifiers (it was about to publish a comment of 👍 rather than a 👍 reaction)
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gRegor chat.indieweb.org doesn't either apparently :)
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gRegor Actually that's probably a Windows thing on my end
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[tantek] doesn't what?
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[snarfed] good feature request!
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[snarfed] [tantek] although it looks like GitHub itself doesn't suppoort skin tone reacjis. I'm actually not sure whether it should translate them all to yellow, or whether that would unpleasantly surprise some users
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[snarfed] commenting is also an unpleasant surprise though so current behavior is wrong regardless
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[tantek] translate them all
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[tantek] pretty sure I added code for some of this somewhere already
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[tantek] maybe only for converging all the hearts to the one heart ❤?
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GWG I saw on that w3c charter page Ticket Auth, the living IndieAuth standard and Micropub....was thinking maybe I should throw my hat into the ring as an editor..I wrote the current draft of the Ticket Auth spec and I contributed some PRs to the IndieAuth changes of the last few years.
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GWG Is there a process?
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GWG Because the last time I asked what you had to do for a similar position, it was just ask and I'm still waiting for mentorship
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gRegor [tantek], Windows apparently doesn't differentiate those thumbs up emojis, both showed up as the yellow thumbs up
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capjamesg [tantek] See GWG's comment.
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[catgirlinspace] i keep looking at what it takes to support webauthn for passkeys and it looks so scary >.<
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capjamesg [catgirlinspace] I felt the same way too :(
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capjamesg Or, rather, feel the same way.
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capjamesg I haven't figured out webauthn.
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capjamesg aaronpk Do you know anything that could help?
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[catgirlinspace] doing stuff in a language that has like 0 libraries for web stuff is 10x more fun until it’s stuff like this. where it’s like 100x worse :(
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gRegor ooh, ouch. yeah I wouldn't want to be creating that from scratch
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[catgirlinspace] making everything else from scratch is fun tho. like url routing stuff and templating. just, auth is hard
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[catgirlinspace] even more fun is the lune runtime has no hashing methods (yet). so for sha512 or whatever i have to use a luau implementation
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capjamesg auth is *really* hard.
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AramZS There should be some decent libraries for WebAuthn out there?
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AramZS I know that Node has some good ones.
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[snarfed] yup, "for fun" is more or less the only valid reason for rolling your own anything-security-related, unless you truly know what you're doing
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aaronpk I recently added passkey support to Meetable, thankfully there was a good library for it
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[catgirlinspace] AramZS tmk there’s no libraries for luau though :(
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AramZS Luau? I'm not familiar with that
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capjamesg Link?
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[catgirlinspace] https://luau-lang.org
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[catgirlinspace] it’s a fork of lua 5.1
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[catgirlinspace] and for a runtime am using https://github.com/filiptibell/lune
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Loqi [preview] [filiptibell] lune: A standalone Luau runtime 🌙
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AramZS Huh, interesting! So a syntax sugar for Lua that came out of Roblox.
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AramZS Yeah, I'm at a total loss for that one. I know of Lua, but I've never worked with it.
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AramZS WebAuthn has Go, Ruby and Typescript libraries, are any of those languages close to Lua?
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[tantek] what is Luau
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Luau" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Luau is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] oh?
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[catgirlinspace] ooo could make a page for luau? only indieweb relevance though is i use it for my website (once i have enough of it done to actually deploy it…)
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capjamesg Yes!
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capjamesg That's enough!
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capjamesg I look forward to seeing your luau website!
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[0x3b0b] As someone who once intended to use Lua for a lot of stuff, now I'm going to find it necessary to read up on _why_ they forked Lua
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[catgirlinspace] yay ty
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Loqi 😃
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[catgirlinspace] Luau is a Lua 5.1 fork developed by Roblox that has improved performance, a gradual type system, and added runtime features.
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[catgirlinspace] that’s a good enough definition probably
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[catgirlinspace] loqi pls do the thing
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[catgirlinspace] think maybe has been too long since the original prompt?
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[catgirlinspace] what is Luau
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Luau" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Luau is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[catgirlinspace] Luau is a Lua 5.1 fork developed by Roblox that has improved performance, a gradual type system, and added runtime features.
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Loqi ok
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[catgirlinspace] ah there we go
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[catgirlinspace] what is luau
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Loqi Luau is a Lua 5.1 fork developed by Roblox that has improved performance, a gradual type system, and added runtime features https://indieweb.org/Luau
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[catgirlinspace] yay :3
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[tantek] Luau << {{relevance_needed}}
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Loqi ok, I added "{{relevance_needed}}" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Luau https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=89693&oldid=89692
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[tantek] catgirlinspace++ for being bold and adding a page of technology that they're using for making their own site!
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Loqi catgirlinspace has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (10 in all channels)
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[0x3b0b] OK, it's a _superset_, and it's a result of Roblox...those make me feel more and less optimistic about it respectively
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[tantek] and go for it: add a "Brainstorming" section with "use it for my website (once i have enough of it done to actually deploy it…)" details!
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[tantek] what is Roblox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Roblox" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Roblox is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[catgirlinspace] oh got an edit conflict when editing the page >.<
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[tantek] oh no! apologies
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[catgirlinspace] it’s okii i figured it out
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[catgirlinspace] not gonna define roblox because it’s not relevant to indieweb rlly and don’t want loqi to pick it up by accident >.<
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[tantek] thank you! and good call
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[tantek] 0x3b0b are you using Roblox on your own site?
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[catgirlinspace] it’s a game engine combined with a hosting platform pretty much (pls don’t somehow pick this up loqi)
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[catgirlinspace] historically has appealed to a younger age group although the last few years the platform has aged up.
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[0x3b0b] I don't play Roblox at all, and there's no good reason for me to associate it with negative assumptions about a programming language; most of the negatives I'm familiar with about it have to do with exploitative community.
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[catgirlinspace] guessing 0x3b0b is referring to some negative press that misrepresents roblox a lot imo. this is coming from someone who’s done a lot of development on the platform (that’s me)
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[tantek] what is the difference between Lua and Luau?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "difference between Lua and Luau" yet. Would you like to create it?_ (Or just say "difference between Lua and Luau is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] what is Lua
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Loqi Lua is a lightweight and embeddable scripting language and is found in many game engines, hardware devices and tools including Nginx - see https://www.lua.org/about.html https://indieweb.org/Lua
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[tantek] what is Luau?
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Loqi Luau is a Lua 5.1 fork developed by Roblox that has improved performance, a gradual type system, and added runtime features, and is used by for at least one IndieWeb site in development https://indieweb.org/Luau
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[tantek] are these actually different or just a typo?
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[catgirlinspace] they’re different.
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[0x3b0b] It's different. They extended the language (and then diverged, apparently; there are newer Lua features they didn't backport)
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[catgirlinspace] stuff written for lua 5.1 is compatible with luau (assuming it doesn’t use the os library or something), but stuff written for luau isn’t backwards compatible with lua 5.1 depending on features used.
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[tantek] that would be good to make clear on the luau page!
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[catgirlinspace] Lua << [[Luau]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Luau]]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Lua https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=89696&oldid=81948
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[catgirlinspace] Luau << [[Lua]]
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Lua]]" to the "See Also" section of /Luau https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=89697&oldid=89695
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[tantek] thank you
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[tantek] [snarfed]++ for https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/639#issuecomment-1751447693! Thank you! I will have to try it out 🙂
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Loqi [snarfed] has 104 karma in this channel over the last year (158 in all channels)
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Loqi [preview] [snarfed] Made an executive decision here to go ahead and deliver self replies to all followers. I still haven't really tried to fully grok AP/AS2 audience delivery. Maybe someday. In the meantime, @tantek feel free to try this out!
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[snarfed] welcome!
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