#dev 2024-01-06

2024-01-06 UTC
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[KevinMarks] @real_devastatia did you already try webmention.rocks?
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[snarfed] capjamesg not that I know of
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[snarfed] monitoring says no, https://snarfed.org/granary-20230105.jpg
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[snarfed] TIL that Firefox on desktop doesn't support installing PWAs to desktop, ie in a "site-specific browser." interesting. https://tech.lgbt/@nelson/111705157808396309
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[snarfed] (Firefox mobile does support it)
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[tantek] [snarfed] it's not something that's seen a lot of user demand nevermind even understanding of what & why
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jacky wouldn't that be a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation?
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jacky like without it being an option, developers couldn't provide/suggest it to generate demand?
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jacky unless Electron/Chromium wrappers sidestepped the whole want for PWAs altogether
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zzo38 I have seen the document in this wiki relating to Gemini protocol.
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zzo38 One question I have is: Would categories be added for protocols and file format (which it defines both)?
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zzo38 Also, I invented my own called Scorpion protocol/file-format, too.
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[tantek] jacky, nah, it's not chicken-and-egg because Chrome/Android etc. has been laying the eggs but users just aren't biting.
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[tantek] zzo38, only if it has IndieWeb relevance, otherwise it probably should be documented somewhere else
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[tantek] what is relevant to the IndieWeb
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Loqi Anything directly related to people with their own websites, such as technologies and services used, design and UX, formats and protocols, as well as events or podcasts with IndieWeb talks or content are relevant to the IndieWeb wiki https://indieweb.org/relevant_to_the_IndieWeb
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jacky Sure, but that toot's about desktop PWAs, not the mobile landscape
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[tantek] jacky, indeed, that's the point, there's Chrome on desktop also
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[tantek] zzo38, better to start with, here's how I'm using protocol X or file format Y on my own site (user benefit), and only after that worrying about wikifying nevermind adding categories
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jacky wouldn't that then make PWAs a Chrome/Google-only feature? If anything, it'd be place for advocacy for different browser engines (which seems like it's only possible outside of Apple's ecosystem now)
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jacky well, I guess it _did_ have a lot of promo from there
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[tantek] precisely. and "PWA" as a whole has suffered from acronym-first development, rather than actual user-benefits.
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[tantek] for example "offline website" has a lot more success than "PWA" because right there in the name is the user benefit
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[tantek] PWAs do nothing to help progressives on the web 😛 😉
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[tantek] It's a kind of repeating of history, this kind of acronym-first advocacy firsthand, from what we had in the early 2000s with all the XML-this-that-and-the-other advocacy for the web
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jacky another coin in the developer marketing jar, I guess
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zzo38 There are articles about protocols there though including Gemini, NNTP, and others, but seems not a wiki category for such pages?
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jacky there hadn't been a need for that
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jacky thought something like that might be better on Wikipedia itself tbh
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[tantek] yep. and there's probably some gardening that needs to be done. we have category:jargon which is good enough for such things
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[tantek] Anyway wikifying, categories etc are better for #indieweb-meta since none of that has anything to do with actually building new user-relevant features for your own site
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[tantek] What is discuss?
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Loqi 💬 Join the #indieweb discussion via the web, Slack, IRC, Discord, or Matrix clients now with additional channels for dev, wordpress, and meta specific chat! https://indieweb.org/discuss
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[tantek] zzo38 take a look at that ^ for what general areas of IndieWeb related topics are better for which channel. Happy to chat more wiki related stuff in #indieweb-meta 🙏
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r​eal_devastatia [KevinMarks]: I haven't tried any Webmention implementation. I built a Twitter-style @mention system on my site that uses e-mail for notifications. I want to extend that to send Webmentions if the mentioned person has an endpoint, and fall back to e-mail if they don't.
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r​eal_devastatia Here's an extreme example where I mentioned practically everybody in my address book: https://devastatia.com/403-reasons-my-website-is-free
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r​eal_devastatia Oh, I see. It's a validator. That'll be useful. Thanks, Kevin!
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r​eal_devastatia tantek_com[d] Can an h-card have more than one p-category?
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barnaby yes, although the question is more “are there any tools which consume h-card with do something with category, and if so, do they handle multiple values”
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barnaby most of h-card is based on vcard, and p-category is the equivalent of the vcard CATEGORIES property, which can have multiple values
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r​eal_devastatia Are the properties separate elements or a single element with comma-separated values?
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barnaby separate elements, each with a p-category class
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barnaby at least, that’s how I’d mark it up, consistent with p-category on h-entry, which afaik is much more widely used
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r​eal_devastatia These are intended for machine consumption, yes? I can hide them with CSS display:none ?
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barnaby if you want to, yes, but personally I’d leave them out entirely if a) they’re not going to be visible to humans, and b) there’s no practical use-case for publishing them
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barnaby I’m pretty sure CATEGORIES in vCard is intended to be used for the address book owner to organise contact information, rather than it being self-declared categories from the contact publisher, but which made it into h-card due to being in vCard. So it’s a little unclear exactly what would be useful to put there when using h-card for your personal site profile information
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barnaby Zegnat has one of the most filled-out h-cards out there and even they don’t use p-category for anything, so you’d be breaking new ground ;) https://vanderven.se/martijn/
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Loqi [preview] Martijn van der Ven
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r​eal_devastatia A number of use cases are listed here. Or did you specifically mean categories should be left out? https://indieweb.org/h-card
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barnaby I was talking specifically about p-category. there are plenty of good reasons to publish h-card!
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r​eal_devastatia All right. I'll have it up in a few seconds. Thanks!
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r​eal_devastatia https://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdevastatia.com
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[KevinMarks] PWA should be "Web App"
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r​eal_devastatia Barnaby, I think the newline escape is superfluous here, as whitespace includes newline: preg_replace('/[\s|\n]+/', ' ', $str);
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barnaby could be, where are you seeing that?
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barnaby if it’s in the indiewebify.me codebase, that’s stuff I either didn’t write or haven’t touched for ~10 years 😅
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r​eal_devastatia https://github.com/microformats/php-mf2/blob/main/Mf2/Parser.php line 109
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barnaby well that function is deprecated, isn’t used in the codebase and is only kept around to avoid breaking back-compat in case someone was using it for some reason
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barnaby so I’m not too worried about it ;)
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r​eal_devastatia Transforming HTML to JSON is a cool idea. I wrote an Apache access log parser that converts the entries to JSON.
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barnaby we should just remove it and any other unused deprecated functions on the next 0.x release. no reason to keep them around. I’ll make an issue for it
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Loqi yea
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r​eal_devastatia You may find this interesting. Rather than having a huge array of entry objects in memory, it implements Iterator to emulate looping over lines in a file as though it were a JSON array.
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r​eal_devastatia https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1193198294604730388/HttpdAccessLog.v2.php.zip?ex=65abd781&is=65996281&hm=641bb6e2abdda7176847de13cd17b37f10bbe15825d64c5db8c6415a700625bd&
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barnaby I’ve not measured it, but I suspect the memory requirements of loading the source page into a DOMDocument far outweigh the size of the output array. It might be possible to implement a streaming mf2 parser in PHP, but you’d need a streaming HTML parser too. In practice it hasn‘t been an issue yet
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[KevinMarks] Microformats is html to json, though only some html. The xoxo format is <ul><ol>and <dt><dd>to json and back
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barnaby actually I’m pretty sure implied properties prevents streaming mf2 parsers from being useful in many cases
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barnaby definitely a good approach for parsing non-hierarchical, line-by-line structures like apache access logs though!
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r​eal_devastatia I have a widget on my site that polls the server every 5 seconds, which generates a huge access log. I'm pretty sure PHP would crash if I tried to load the whole log file (or the JSON version thereof) all at once.
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r​eal_devastatia I actually don't even look at access logs and stats anymore. I worked for a marketing company, and they were obsessed with that stuff. It was a hard habit to break. I finally just stopped worrying about it. If my posts are interesting, they will come.
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barnaby yeah I turned off analytics on my site years ago and never looked back
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barnaby the occasional emails or replies I get because something on my site helped someone are way more important to me than Number Go Up
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r​eal_devastatia Exactly. It's gratifying to get an e-mail saying your work made a positive difference in somebody's life.
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[tantek] real_devastatia, yes multiple p-category elements like barnaby said. You can check my h-card for an example of marking up visible self-description text with p-category: https://tantek.com/
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barnaby oh, so there is a real-world example!
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[tantek] I think of it as self-tagging, so if anyone was aggregating a bunch of h-cards on the web, and did some indexing or supported tag search then mine would show up there
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[tantek] Like hashtagging yourself not just your posts
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t​antek.com reacted with 👍 to <real_devastatia[d]> tantek_com[d] Can an h-card …
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[tantek] Whoa
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[tantek] Discord reactions turn into text descriptions here! That's more than what the Slack bridge does
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r​eal_devastatia Interestingly, Brad's comments section seems to have pulled everybody's h-card but mine. Are they all on WordPress or something?
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r​eal_devastatia micro.blog
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Soni btw, re: trophy case https://iceshrimp.dev/iceshrimp/iceshrimp/issues/484
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c​apjamesg starrwulfe[d] The closest I got was writing a static front-end for WordPress.
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c​apjamesg WordPress has a pretty good API!
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jacky I feel like my career's been mostly CMS dev (Shutterstock for the in-house Contributor CMS, Lyft for the in-house CMS for messages, etc)
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jacky now I'm fiddling with my micropub one that's a rewrite from an Elixir one (which I think I'll write about one day)
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jacky !tell angelo Have you done much with Braid recently?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jacky had a brief moment where DNS wasn't remotely resolving but it was for sites I visited locally
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jacky (had to just pay DNSimple)
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jacky but that did make me curious about local TTLs versus remote ones
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