#dev 2024-01-11

2024-01-11 UTC
Guest3, bterry, to2ds, geoffo, gRegorLove_ and gxt joined the channel; Guest3 left the channel
#
sknebel risks of "weird" TLDs, part N+1: https://queer.af/@postmaster/111733741786950083
Maxpm and [tantek] joined the channel
#
[tantek] capjamesg, you might find this of interest: https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.03622
#
[tantek] what is .af
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for ".af" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say ".af is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
[tantek] what is ccTLD
#
Loqi ccTLD is an abbreviation for country code top-level domain, a top-level-domain that is specific to a particular country, thus governed by its additional laws, and often more restrictive and/or fragile than non-country-specific domains; used by some in the IndieWeb community for short-domains https://indieweb.org/ccTLD
[Jo] and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Interesting framing https://publicobject.com/2024/01/11/wasm/
#
[KevinMarks] Aperture doesn't see this as a feed. Is it a mime type issue? https://joanwestenberg.com/blog?format=rss
#
[KevinMarks] Looks like an existing bug https://github.com/aaronpk/Aperture/issues/126
#
Loqi [preview] [jamietanna] #126 Squarespace RSS feeds aren't usable
#
[KevinMarks] Bridgy and unmung handle it OK
lazcorp joined the channel
#
lazcorp It could be the mimetype. It's being sent as application/rss+xml, which is technically correct, but has always bugged me because the major browsers won't display that mimetype (they trigger a download). I use application/xml for my RSS feed, which is technically incorrect, but it allows people to see my RSS feed in a browser before deciding if they want to add it to their feed reader
#
lazcorp The ideal solution would be for browsers to display application/rss+xml rather than automatically download them
#
lazcorp Anyway, that's a tangential gripe - https://joanwestenberg.com/blog?format=rss is being sent as application/rss+xml which I'd expect a parser to be able to read (I follow that feed on Inoreader and it works fine), but it could be the problem
#
lazcorp Alternatively there are also some validation issues with the feed - see https://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjoanwestenberg.com%2Fblog%3Fformat%3Drss
#
lazcorp they're probably more likely the cause of the problem
#
[KevinMarks] Ah, they put `form` in the feed entries, that's weird
eb, vikanezrimaya, srushe, ancarda, capjamesg, roxwize and alecjonathon joined the channel
#
petermolnar https://www.fromjason.xyz/p/notebook/where-have-all-the-websites-gone/ "So when we wonder where all the websites have gone, know it’s the curators we’re nostalgic for because the curators showed us the best the web had to offer once upon a time. ". Yep.
#
Loqi petermolnar: [tantek] left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: I inferred from chat logs your use of pandoc, but if I got it wrong please correct it! https://indieweb.org/pandoc#Peter_Molnar
#
Loqi [preview] [Jason Velazquez] Where have all the websites gone? It’s Tuesday morning. The year is 2009. You’re just waking up after a long and boozy New Year’s Eve with friends. Your head rings, and your mouth is the type of dry that makes you question your adulthood. You f...
capjamesg, alecjonathon, vikanezrimaya, roxwize, srushe, [campegg] and lazcorp joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] make curation individual again ( I remebre when the iOS app store was claiming to be a curator)
#
[KevinMarks] http://epeus.blogspot.com/2010/06/steve-jobs-and-curates-egg.html
Guest3385, [jeffpaul], [pfefferle], to2ds and lazcorp joined the channel
#
[aciccarello] Continuing from #indieweb...
#
[aciccarello] I know for static sites you can create a JSON webfinger file to show up in mastodon search. But that doesn't handle the inbox/outbox issue
#
to2ds My previous prototype used the flat files for webfinger, nodeinfo, and user profiles.
#
to2ds Then went off on a strange tangent and created the inbox with NGINX Lua which dumped the activity streams to flat files.
#
to2ds Unfortunately its difficukt the validate HTTP signatures with that approach.
#
[aciccarello] HTTP signatures seem to be a big pain for everyone
#
to2ds oops. difficult to
#
to2ds Definitely.
#
to2ds At one point I had four to five different ActPub servers on a single VPS to test my code against.
#
to2ds Toggled them as needed with shell scripts.
gRegor and lazcorp joined the channel
#
lazcorp really regretting starting this project now
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds Friendica was probably the most helpful since it was easier to do print debugging things in the PHP code.
#
to2ds lazcorp - I know what you mean 😄
gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
[aciccarello] I'm really grateful bridgy-fed handles all the AP stuff for me
#
to2ds Bridgy is pretty amazing.
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] thanks!
[jacky] joined the channel
#
[jacky] https://mastodon.social/@Teri_Kanefield/111738097679847214 stampeding herd effect for WordPress blogs using the AP plugin
#
Loqi [preview] [Teri Kanefield] Okay techies: Every time I post a link to my website on Mastodon, everyone (including me) is shut out of my website for about 5 mintutes with an "error 500" message.This doesn't happen when I post anywhere else, and I get 10 time the traffic from oth...
#
[snarfed] long-debated. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/4486 , https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/23662
#
Loqi [preview] [valentin2105] #4486 Mastodon can be used as a DDOS tool
rrix joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] Don't know how you solve that without a shared cache of some kind. Randomized delay in preview fetching? Randomized delay in fan out to followers?
#
[aciccarello] I think there's already a randomized delay but it's a fairly short time range
#
[aciccarello] Like maybe 5 minutes
#
sknebel yeah, something like that
#
sknebel and lots of blogs fall over surprisingly easily :/
#
sknebel (I was kind of curious how bad it'd be once I shared links to my blog, which is really not done in an efficient way either, but it never seemed to be a problem - but I also dont have the highest reach)
#
sknebel microcaching on the blogs side would IMHO solve it in the vast majority of cases, but doesnt help people with random wordpress hosting booked somewhere that doesnt have a way of doing that...
#
[aciccarello] It does seem like something servers should handle better but that requires individual sites to update their config 😞
#
aaronpk she has 38K followers, but i guess follower count isn't everything because as soon as someone with a large following reposts it'd be the same problem
#
sknebel yup. and distribution of those followers across servers is what actually matters
#
aaronpk right
#
aaronpk link preview fetching from mastodon posts definitely is a unique traffic pattern. in the first post she mentioned she has 10x the traffic from other sources. it's just not all in the first 10 seconds
#
[aciccarello] True, 38k followers must be quite a few servers
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds MastoDDOS?
#
sknebel hence the short cache approach - if the big spike is in 10s, a cache thats valid for 15s catches that
#
aaronpk i have a 1-second microcache on my site and it seems to be fine so far
rrix and to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds Here is the link for the quasi-instance using static files https://justingarrison.com/blog/2022-12-06-mastodon-files-instance/
#
[jacky] with this post alone, I could make AP work for my site for a discovery bit tbh
#
[jacky] oh I'd _totally_ fake these numbers lol
#
[jacky] wants metrics-titled social media to slowly fall off
#
aaronpk i made mine show the account was created when i first launched my website, but my post and follower stats are real
#
[jacky] peeks
#
[jacky] well todon is busted perhaps https://todon.eu/@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com
#
[jacky] the post count tho :saluting_face:
#
[jacky] always _on_ main lol
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds jacky - I did too. 8 billion followers and 8 billion following 😄
#
[jacky] hahaha
#
Loqi rofl
#
[snarfed] wow https://aaronparecki.com/followers shows all 2k followers?! 😆
#
[jacky] whew this page is _loading_ lol
#
[jacky] this is cool
#
to2ds Although I remember a few Masto instances rejected it initially, until I sent an explicit Update actvity. One or two instances didn't comply at though.
#
[snarfed] I wonder if https://todon.eu/@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com would update its follower/ing count if aaronpk sent it an AP `Update` for his actor
#
aaronpk oops no pagination
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds [snarfed] - Most instances were amenable to AP 'updates', but a few never responded back to request profile and follower endpoints. Could not figure out why.
#
[snarfed] to2ds responded back? you mean, fetched your actor or followers collections?
#
to2ds Correct.
#
to2ds Generally, and update request would be followed by query for the profile and follower endpoints fairly quick.
#
[snarfed] ok
#
[tantek] lol this scrollback
to2ds joined the channel
#
[jacky] TIL https://app.netlify.com/drop
to2ds joined the channel
#
to2ds That's definitely interesting.
#
[snarfed] that is awesome
lazcorp joined the channel
#
lazcorp Netlify++
#
Loqi Netlify has 1 karma over the last year
to2ds joined the channel
#
lazcorp I think that answers yesterday's call that "we need to make it easier for people to set up a website"
gxt and [schmarty] joined the channel
#
[schmarty] as long as netlify doesn't run out of VC money 💸
#
[snarfed] lazcorp not really, it requires you to generate your own HTML CSS etc first, into files on your local computer. different target audience
#
lazcorp true, or just get enough people relying on it then increase the prices
#
[snarfed] eh they have a clear upsell on that landing page, and free tiers are pretty established
#
lazcorp [snarfed] yes, true - but it does answer the demand for free hosting for static HTML/CSS/JS (which came up in yesterday's Europe/London HWC)
#
[snarfed] ah ok!
#
lazcorp I think there are two "demands": free hosting for people building simple static sites, and an easy way to set up a site that already has lots of functionality built in and is ready to use (e.g., WordPress)
#
[snarfed] got it
lazcorp joined the channel
#
lazcorp The former used to be provided when you got an internet account in the UK (my first domain was at http://lazcorp.demon.co.uk) with the 10MB webspace provided with my internet access and email account (and NNTP access)
#
[tantek] [snarfed]++ exactly, still requires installing/running an SSG, or handrolling your site folder
#
Loqi [snarfed] has 71 karma in this channel over the last year (117 in all channels)
to2ds joined the channel
#
aaronpk unrelated to any indieweb tech, but this website is a great example of a tool for helping implement a spec! https://scim.dev
#
[jacky] I could see that tool re: Netilfly being used with Publii
#
[jacky] oh wow this SCIM thing is interesting
[James_Van_Dyne] joined the channel
#
[jacky] how did they make this? lol
#
to2ds It reads "Experience the fun of identity management..." Since when is identity management "fun"?
#
aaronpk hehe
#
[jacky] this def makes it so
#
aaronpk i like the design, i could see making something like this for webmention
#
aaronpk i should probably do an update to webmention.rocks along these lines
#
[jacky] yeah this feedback speed is nice
#
Loqi totally
#
[jacky] okay so https://sele-test.jacky.wtf/sessions should allow you to "sign in" using GitHub (and maybe email, I need to double check I didn't break that)
#
Loqi [preview] jacky.wtf
#
[jacky] the database's thrasted every other day so don't expect anything fun
#
[jacky] this thing even reports its own introspection endpoint lol
#
[jacky] (re: http://scim.dev)
#
[jacky] why do I have a inkling that SCIM is meant to be the new gen of OAuth?
#
[jacky] I remember something else with a X in its name
#
s​tarrwulfe [snarfed]: This guy isn't, his instance here is 💀 dead 💀
#
IWDiscord <s​tarrwulfe#0>
#
s​tarrwulfe starrwulfe
#
s​tarrwulfe public.garden/users/starrwulfe
#
[snarfed] starrwulfe um, sorry?
#
s​tarrwulfe Which leads me to another question: how do we get rid of dead instances in bridgy?
#
[snarfed] I don't follow
#
[snarfed] oh, I see
#
[snarfed] you mean, prune them from your followers list?
#
s​tarrwulfe Yep. The public.garden instance was something evanp was testing and killed about 3 months ago
#
s​tarrwulfe I wish there was a way for AP instances to "pulse check" instances every month to see if they're still alive and prune when they're not.
#
[snarfed] there is! they can do exactly that
#
aaronpk nah SCIM is totally separate from OAuth. it's a very enterprise use case thing.
#
[snarfed] inbox delivery is basically that. some servers notice when inbox deliveries consistently fail, and stop delivering to those instances
#
[snarfed] it's not hurting anything right now for them to stick around in BF, but you're right that I could eventually detect dead instances
#
[snarfed] whether to visibly remove users on those instances from your followers is a separate question. I wonder what other AP servers like Mastodon do
#
[snarfed] feel free to research and file an issue!
#
s​tarrwulfe OK -- I had a BF example to show, but my logs expired (was 23 days ago!)
#
s​tarrwulfe Mastodon just gives the option to purge the follow from your list of followers.
#
s​tarrwulfe there's a list like this where its done in mastodon settings.
#
s​tarrwulfe https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1195136283027185685/image.png?ex=65b2e466&is=65a06f66&hm=9baa5c0a46a05847ac7455b0555daf4e95b5c6bba5d3f26300769b9ee5c7de2f&
#
[snarfed] the arrow icons there are interesting. starrwulfe do you mean if green means it thinks the instance is up, yellow means it thinks it's down
#
s​tarrwulfe That just shows if they follow you, or if its a 2 way follower.
#
s​tarrwulfe As in you follow them too.
#
s​tarrwulfe when I switch to people I follow:
#
s​tarrwulfe https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1195144139889721455/image.png?ex=65b2ebb7&is=65a076b7&hm=ae22bad4370a36776af95c4dcc74da6f9bbb28125fd160fcca7feafe676bb061&
#
[snarfed] ah ok. so Mastodon isn't detecting and showing followers on dead instances specifically
#
s​tarrwulfe well there is the "dormant" category:
#
s​tarrwulfe https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/866577430886350869/1195144414046212106/image.png?ex=65b2ebf9&is=65a076f9&hm=2ae3eb52bc36e0686c88a72686ac9475f01287cb917827ee4c2f5bf05b98a90e&
#
s​tarrwulfe If I post something from that account in the middle, it should remove itself from there then...
#
[snarfed] so not specifically people on dead instances then
#
s​tarrwulfe Not "indicated" as dead, but flagged as dormant... which could mean dead too.
#
s​tarrwulfe Not sure what the threshold for "dormant" is... likely an admin setting.
#
[tantek] Tom Coates posted his notes and analysis from Data Dialogue with Meta about Threads! http://plasticbag.org/archives/2024/01/how-threads-will-integrate-with-the-fediverse/
#
[tantek] Data Dialogues << 2024-01-11 Tom Coates: [http://plasticbag.org/archives/2024/01/how-threads-will-integrate-with-the-fediverse/ How Threads will integrate with the Fediverse]
#
Loqi ok, I added "2024-01-11 Tom Coates: [http://plasticbag.org/archives/2024/01/how-threads-will-integrate-with-the-fediverse/ How Threads will integrate with the Fediverse]" to the "See Also" section of /Data_Dialogues https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92168&oldid=91162
#
s​tarrwulfe Welp, I have some reading to do for the next few minutes!